When To Say "enough Is Enough?" (Aggression)

[RaineysMom]

I really miss our boy, but in a way it is nice to finally be able to go out in public with our girl. We had to stop going to greyhound meetups as we were afraid of what could happen if our boy flipped out. That wouldn't be a great way to promote greyhound adoption if you can't let anyone pet your dog since he could attack them. :-) (Or having to explain why he's wearing a muzzle).

 

I'm sorry you had to bring your boy back but I'm so glad you had someplace he could go, unlike our Remy.

 

I wasn't going to say anything before, but I totally understand the relief you are feeling. We had NO idea how it was affecting us with Remy until he was gone....he was a time bomb and the amount of stress was incredible. I didn't even realize how much stress it put onto our little Schipperke, Captain (15lbs -- he was the one that Remy kept attacking) until he was gone....about 4 days later, he jumped into my lap and fell asleep on his back. It was then that I realized he HAD NOT DONE THAT, in literally YEARS. He ONLY slept on Bruce's lap, because he saw Bruce as his protector, I guess. His personality did a total 180 and he was back to the way he had been years before. I never realized he had changed.

 

sending you and your hubby (and girl!) many hugs. And sending your boy the best of wishes as well.

[Xan]

I'm sorry you had to bring your boy back but I'm so glad you had someplace he could go, unlike our Remy.

 

I wasn't going to say anything before, but I totally understand the relief you are feeling. We had NO idea how it was affecting us with Remy until he was gone....he was a time bomb and the amount of stress was incredible. I didn't even realize how much stress it put onto our little Schipperke, Captain (15lbs -- he was the one that Remy kept attacking) until he was gone....about 4 days later, he jumped into my lap and fell asleep on his back. It was then that I realized he HAD NOT DONE THAT, in literally YEARS. He ONLY slept on Bruce's lap, because he saw Bruce as his protector, I guess. His personality did a total 180 and he was back to the way he had been years before. I never realized he had changed.

 

sending you and your hubby (and girl!) many hugs. And sending your boy the best of wishes as well.

I understand that relief. The behaviorist I mentioned earlier said to us, "Having an aggressive dog changes your whole world." So true, and true for everyone in the household. Part of our on-going concern about keeping Pogo has been his effect on our other boy, Brilly, who has been the attack target, mostly. Mostly, they're fine. Until they're not. Leaving them to go on a trip ... who do you saddle with that kind of responsibility?

 

I wish him the best in his next life phase, and the same to you all!

[Guest june]

I am so sorry for you loss. Sending hugs and prayers to heal your heart.

june

[Guest colander_girl]

For those still following this thread I just need to vent a bit. We submitted an application to our local adoption group hoping to foster another grey in a few weeks that would fit our home and situation. Our group called us and said that the adoption committee decided not to allow us to foster a dog because they thought our training methods were not right for greyhounds. Specifically banishing our boy from the pack for several days after a serious attack--which we only did for two of his three attacks. I'm so frustrated now because we followed our group's advice every step of the way. When the first incident happened we called for advice and were told by a group member to try this banishing approach. We've learned recently that this method was not the right approach (it didn't seem right when we first tried it, but we wanted to follow the advice of the only experts we knew). Our group says that he's been a perfect angel since we returned him to them. This doesn't surprise me since he's a good boy 99% of the time. He could go a year or two without attacking anyone. They believe that his medication had his hormones all out of whack and that our vet may not be the most greyhound savvy doc out there (and she was recommended to us as BEING greyhound-savvy). I'm not sure if I disagree with them on those particular points but I worry that they will put him in an environment where he may be likely to attack and really injure someone again. Not to mention, his first serious attack happened before he was put on medication. I'm also frustrated that they won't allow us to even foster a dog. Crying a little here because I'm lost now. I thought we were doing the right thing by bringing him back. I'm sad because we lost a member of our family. In retrospect I wish we wouldn't have brought him back.

 

I know our group has the best interest of their dogs at heart, but I feel like we're being made out to be incompetent. We've fostered two dogs in the past with no problems whatsoever, one of which had a serious leg wound which required daily bandage changes and constant supervision, and the other was terrified of loud noises and the outdoors in general.

 

I'm sorry, I don't mean to come across as whiny... just really upset right now. :'(

[revamp]

I'm sorry to hear this. The thing is, your adoption group is made up of dog people. Not just dog people, but grey people. Not *just* grey people, but people who are operating a rescue. They will believe that your boy is perfect now that he was removed from your house/environment because that is what they want to believe. It is easier for them to think you were to blame in some way (intentional or unintentional) than to believe that the hound is unpredictably and dangerously violent because something is chemically/physically, possibly irreparably wrong with the dog.

 

Try not to take it personally, although I can't imagine taking it in any other way in your position. See if you can contact another group.

[Trihounds]

I'm sorry - I hear your pain and it doesn't sound like your group has treated you very well throughout - I mean...you followed their advice and are now being shunned for it? Pffffft. That stinks!

 

Is there a chance you can work with another group? Be pleasant and win your current group over? Would you say you have a good relationship with the group (rhetorical)? Grasping at straws here but I am sure you will want to stay in contact with your group for updates, etc. Maybe it's best you let the dust settle a little, bite your tongue, and then iron out the miscommunication over the coming months? But for the record, I'd feel like I had a knife in my back and would be upset about it as well. Good luck...and yes, I followed your thread from the start.

[NeylasMom]

I'm really sorry you're going through this. I'm sadly not terribly surprised, but it's very disconcerting, not only because of the way they appear to be treating you, but because it sounds like they may be creating a situation in which someone is going to unnecessarily get hurt. I've worked in greyhound rescue for 10 years and I've definitely seen quite a few dogs come back with issues that once in a home that could provide the routine and clear guidance the dog needed were totally fine. I've also seen dogs who were perfectly fine in their foster homes (including in my own) returned years later with issues that could have been prevented. That does not mean that every instance of a dog returned with aggression is the adopter's fault and to make that judgment call so soon is, in addition to being unfair to you, dangerous.

 

Have you tried saying everything you just said to us to them? Perhaps writing a well thought out email outlining your concerns and trying to smooth things over would work. I would probably try that first, but if you're unsuccessful, I would move on to another group and just try not to burn any bridges so you can continue to get updates on your boy.

 

I truly am so sorry, I think it's quite clear the kind of adopters you are just from these posts and if you lived in my area I'd sign you up to foster in a heartbeat. Somewhere out there is another dog for your family - don't give up.

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I'm here in Houston, and I don't know what group you're referring to, but I guess it really doesn't matter. I'm sorry - it doesn't seem right that you would be criticized for following their directions and advice, and I would hope that you have pointed that out to them.

 

And, yes - I would hope that they would not put him in a home with someone who was not totally aware of the situation, and his very random issues. That's a rather scary thought, and again, I hope that you have voiced that fear and concern to them as well. Regardless of whether or not it was a situational issue with your home and methods, wherever this pup goes, the foster or adopter should certainly be aware of it.

 

Although I haven't posted, I've followed this thread, and I'm sorry that you find yourself in this situation.

[JJNg]

the adoption committee decided not to allow us to foster a dog because they thought our training methods were not right for greyhounds. Specifically banishing our boy from the pack for several days after a serious attack--which we only did for two of his three attacks. I'm so frustrated now because we followed our group's advice every step of the way. When the first incident happened we called for advice and were told by a group member to try this banishing approach.

 

If that is the primary reason they are giving for declining your application to foster, have you tried nicely pointing out that it was based on the advice of a group member? And perhaps also mention that you have since learned it was not helpful and no longer believe in this approach?

 

Hopefully you will be able to discuss this with them and clear up any misunderstandings. If not, I would second the advice of others to find another group. Since the greyhound community is a small and close-knit one, I would still be up-front about the whole situation if you apply with another group and hopefully you can find one that is open-minded and willing to work with you. Sorry you're having to go through this.

[Guest happygrey]

I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to wait a bit anyway? At least until after you have gone on vacation?

 

Everyone else's advice to nicely point out that you are no longer following your previous training methods is very good. And maybe point out that you have two earlier successful fosters to your credit. If they won't accept you as a foster home after that perhaps try another group.

 

Still though, I think it's wise to take some more time before adding another one.

 

Sorry things had to turn out this way.

[KickReturn]

That's terrible - giving you advice and penalizing you for following it. You sound completely reasonable. Just brush off that group - they seem to be the unreliable ones - giving bad advice and recommending the wrong vet. Based on what you have reported here I would be reluctant to accept a dog from them. Look elsewhere. Don't give up. The perfect dog is waiting for you.

[Guest cwholsin]

There's some good advice about medical issues, and my suggestion is that if you don't want to let him go he needs to be in a muzzle designed to be worn 24/7. ASAP. If you're willing to live with that 1% of the time, he needs to be in a muzzle so he can't get his teeth in you anymore. Good luck!

 

Oops! It would appear that he's gone back to the adoption group. I still wish you all the best!

[Guest LindsaySF]

I don't know anything about the group in question, but it's possible that not all of the volunteers are on the same page as far as advice goes, especially training advice. I heard advice given out by some adoption reps in my group that made me cringe, and it didn't represent the advice that I would have given, nor what some more experienced members of the group would have given. There are also different opinions on vets too. Volunteers in a group all have their own opinions on how things should be done, but not every piece of advice represents "the group" as a whole. You mention an "adoption committee", their decisions will depend on which members of the group are on that committee. They might not be the same people that gave out the prior advice.

 

I think you made the right decision bringing him back to the group. Don't second guess yourself. Your husband did not feel comfortable with him there any longer, and there was no fixing that.

 

If this group doesn't feel comfortable with you fostering, there are plenty of other groups out there that you can contact.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[JohnF]

>>I thought we were doing the right thing by bringing him back. I'm sad because we lost a member of our family. In retrospect I wish we wouldn't have brought him back. >>

 

Don't second-guess on this, you absolutely did the right thing. Groups are run by volunteers who often lose sight of the fact that thousands of greyhounds just disappear after their racing days come to an end or, indeed, never even start. So labeling you as a 'problem' adopter goes against the whole reason why greyhound adoption groups exist. Still, it's their group... their rules. Another group may think differently, especially as you will have learned plenty from the experience. Wait about 6 weeks so that the grieving will be over and good memories of the dog you sent back are at the top of your mind again.

 

If it's any help, when I sent one back after 2 weeks over what I considered to be high prey drive on small dogs, I didn't give them the option of refusing me another dog and instead went to another group. The first group of course kept the adoption money and the dog was remomed within 2 weeks, so even if they may have thought I was 'useless' their dog still got a foreverhome. Even after just two weeks I felt that loss painfully... groups need to factor that into their responses because one disappointed customer can tell 100 people.

 

Life is just too short to put up with a dog that is a threat to your family, and as we all know the biggest problems usually come in fast out of nowhere.

[Guest colander_girl]

I don't know anything about the group in question, but it's possible that not all of the volunteers are on the same page as far as advice goes, especially training advice. I heard advice given out by some adoption reps in my group that made me cringe, and it didn't represent the advice that I would have given, nor what some more experienced members of the group would have given. There are also different opinions on vets too. Volunteers in a group all have their own opinions on how things should be done, but not every piece of advice represents "the group" as a whole. You mention an "adoption committee", their decisions will depend on which members of the group are on that committee. They might not be the same people that gave out the prior advice.

 

I think you are absolutely right and this is what happened. It's a large adoption group and I'm not even sure the person who gave us the advice is even there anymore. We tried to explain that we use normal "greyhound-safe" training methods but in these attacks we didn't know what to do and turned to the group. I think since the decision was already made there was nothing that could be done.

 

I'm going to try and answer some other questions in this same reply:

 

<<Is there a chance you can work with another group? Be pleasant and win your current group over? Would you say you have a good relationship with the group (rhetorical)? Grasping at straws here but I am sure you will want to stay in contact with your group for updates, etc. Maybe it's best you let the dust settle a little, bite your tongue, and then iron out the miscommunication over the coming months? >>

 

There are other groups in our area but we really wanted to stay with this one. We are definitely going to be pleasant (which is why I'm not naming names). :-) We had a good relationship with them, I think... we got very good feedback when we fostered the injured dog (well, not injured--she had major surgery multiple times on her leg due to a racing injury). I could go on and on about that dog... we (and everyone she met) absolutely loved her. The sweetest, happiest dog ever--who would not stop wagging her tail even though she must have been in incredible pain. We would have adopted her in an instant if she hadn't been a permanent foster. And she just happened to be the littermate of our boy. The other dog we fostered wasn't right for us, but my mom fell in love with her and adopted her and they're doing great together. Anyway, yes we want to stay in contact with the adoption group and not burn any bridges.

 

<<Have you tried saying everything you just said to us to them? Perhaps writing a well thought out email outlining your concerns and trying to smooth things over would work. I would probably try that first, but if you're unsuccessful, I would move on to another group and just try not to burn any bridges so you can continue to get updates on your boy.

 

I truly am so sorry, I think it's quite clear the kind of adopters you are just from these posts and if you lived in my area I'd sign you up to foster in a heartbeat. Somewhere out there is another dog for your family - don't give up. >>

 

Thank you so much. Yes, we did explain everything to the lady who contacted us, but I don't think there was anything she could do. She told us we could try another adoption group.

 

<<And, yes - I would hope that they would not put him in a home with someone who was not totally aware of the situation, and his very random issues. That's a rather scary thought, and again, I hope that you have voiced that fear and concern to them as well. Regardless of whether or not it was a situational issue with your home and methods, wherever this pup goes, the foster or adopter should certainly be aware of it. >>

 

This is exactly what we're afraid of, and we told them. They already have him in the "available soon" section with a description that points out how he is just like his sister. His sister was well-known and well-loved, and I have no doubt somebody familiar with her will want him. I just hope that when a potential adopter enquires about him, they are told his full history. Or even pointed here. He is definitely not just like his sister, though he can be just as good and lovable most of the time. I'm hoping it's an experienced group member who is familiar with his past behavior who adopts him.

 

<<I wonder if it wouldn't be a good idea to wait a bit anyway? At least until after you have gone on vacation?>>

 

Oh we're definitely waiting. I had just wanted to get the paperwork done first. We won't be ready to foster/adopt for about 3 weeks (after our vacation).

 

<<Life is just too short to put up with a dog that is a threat to your family, and as we all know the biggest problems usually come in fast out of nowhere. >>

 

Thank you, I'm trying not to second-guess. I know he's in a good place. I just keep thinking we should've switched vets or got a second opinion, but at the time I had no idea which tests he needed and I just put our faith in the vet. Now I don't even know if we should keep taking our girl there.

 

If I left anybody out -- I'm sorry. I did read all of your replies and I genuinely appreciate every one. I wish we would've come here for help after the very first aggressive incident. We were kindly asked by our adoption group years ago not to post on their discussion board about our boy's problems because they feared we'd scare away potential adopters. Which is why we just contacted them directly. I should've looked for a more international forum for help.

 

Anyway -- thank you all again! I'm sure I'll be back. Hopefully for happier subjects. :-)

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[Guest PiagetsMom]

<<And, yes - I would hope that they would not put him in a home with someone who was not totally aware of the situation, and his very random issues. That's a rather scary thought, and again, I hope that you have voiced that fear and concern to them as well. Regardless of whether or not it was a situational issue with your home and methods, wherever this pup goes, the foster or adopter should certainly be aware of it. >>

 

This is exactly what we're afraid of, and we told them. They already have him in the "available soon" section with a description that points out how he is just like his sister. His sister was well-known and well-loved, and I have no doubt somebody familiar with her will want him. I just hope that when a potential adopter enquires about him, they are told his full history. Or even pointed here. He is definitely not just like his sister, though he can be just as good and lovable most of the time. I'm hoping it's an experienced group member who is familiar with his past behavior who adopts him.

 

 

Ok, I know of which pup you're speaking of........... I have to believe that they would do all they can to find the "right" place for him.

 

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that your female is a pup that was owned and raced by my parents. I'd love to PM you, but you don't have enough posts. I hope everything works out for you

Edited July 25, 2012 by PiagetsMom

[Guest colander_girl]

<<And, yes - I would hope that they would not put him in a home with someone who was not totally aware of the situation, and his very random issues. That's a rather scary thought, and again, I hope that you have voiced that fear and concern to them as well. Regardless of whether or not it was a situational issue with your home and methods, wherever this pup goes, the foster or adopter should certainly be aware of it. >>

 

This is exactly what we're afraid of, and we told them. They already have him in the "available soon" section with a description that points out how he is just like his sister. His sister was well-known and well-loved, and I have no doubt somebody familiar with her will want him. I just hope that when a potential adopter enquires about him, they are told his full history. Or even pointed here. He is definitely not just like his sister, though he can be just as good and lovable most of the time. I'm hoping it's an experienced group member who is familiar with his past behavior who adopts him.

 

 

Ok, I know of which pup you're speaking of........... I have to believe that they would do all they can to find the "right" place for him.

 

I believe, if I'm not mistaken, that your female is a pup that was owned and raced by my parents. I'd love to PM you, but you don't have enough posts. I hope everything works out for you

 

Thanks! ... and Wow! That is awesome! She is a wonderful girl!

 

Here's a pic of her that was taken soon after we adopted her:

 

If you'd like to e-mail me, feel free-- familypanorama (at) gmail (dot) com.

[Guest jenniferk]

I am new to GT and having a greyhound--we just adopted our boy two months ago. I've read this whole thread and just wanted to say my heart goes out to you! You did so much to make it work, and it's obvious you really loved him. What an extremely difficult thing to have to go through. It does sound, though, like everyone is in a better place now--you, your husband, and your girl, and, hopefully, your boy if they can find an adopter who specializes in problems like these and can deal with them. I'm sending positive thoughts to you all!

[Guest colander_girl]

I am new to GT and having a greyhound--we just adopted our boy two months ago. I've read this whole thread and just wanted to say my heart goes out to you! You did so much to make it work, and it's obvious you really loved him. What an extremely difficult thing to have to go through. It does sound, though, like everyone is in a better place now--you, your husband, and your girl, and, hopefully, your boy if they can find an adopter who specializes in problems like these and can deal with them. I'm sending positive thoughts to you all!

 

Thank you so much! I just read your thread and it sounds like you are doing everything right, your puppy sounds very normal for a newly adopted grey. His playful, unruly side reminds me of our girl--she can get rowdy and over-excited and nippy and barky when she's playing (and she's 5 years old now). When that starts, I just stop playing with her and she calms down. Good luck!

[Devotion]

I just wanted to add that I think you absolutely did the right thing by returning him. I do know the group and the dog. He is doing well and has been seeing a grey savy vet. He had his corns lasered and additional work up. He's been to the vet several times.

Please remember that this is a group of volunteers who work hard at finding homes for greyhounds. I know the members who make these decisions and they are fantastic people. There are certain times that a decision has to be made. Not every one will like all decisions.

The group stood by its committment to always take a greyhound back. For this I'm thankful.

There is no judgement on my part but we all need to remember we are only reading one side of the story.

[Guest colander_girl]

I just wanted to add that I think you absolutely did the right thing by returning him. I do know the group and the dog. He is doing well and has been seeing a grey savy vet. He had his corns lasered and additional work up. He's been to the vet several times.

Please remember that this is a group of volunteers who work hard at finding homes for greyhounds. I know the members who make these decisions and they are fantastic people. There are certain times that a decision has to be made. Not every one will like all decisions.

The group stood by its committment to always take a greyhound back. For this I'm thankful.

There is no judgement on my part but we all need to remember we are only reading one side of the story.

 

Thank you! I know they have the best interest of the dogs in mind, just as we had the best interests of our boy in mind. I was mostly frustrated because our vets were on their approved list back when we adopted our boy (you can still see that list at archive.org). I'm not sure what happened that they were removed, but we are moving our girl to a different vet that is currently on the list. I feel a little bad about that because our vets were *very* good with our girl when she had to have emergency stitches. But we do need a more experienced vet to take care of her corns.

 

Anyway, I have written a letter to the board explaining things, so hopefully we will be reconsidered for fostering. I think the whole problem is just miscommunication. Most of the people we worked with to adopt our boy are no longer there, and that is nobody's fault.

 

**Edit--thank you for the update on our boy!!! I hope he's feeling better and if you happen to find anything else out (especially regarding his thyroid) I would love to know!

Edited July 30, 2012 by colander_girl

[Guest PiagetsMom]

I'm so glad you were able to get an update on your boy! I hope that eases your mind somewhat.

 

Good luck to your girl with her corns today

[Guest colander_girl]

I'm so glad you were able to get an update on your boy! I hope that eases your mind somewhat.

 

Good luck to your girl with her corns today

 

Thanks! My mind is much eased today. I've been feeling terrible this past week!

 

I'm looking forward to our appointment, I have high hopes for this new vet!