When To Say "enough Is Enough?" (Aggression)

[JAJ2010]

(((((((HUGSSSS))))))))))))

 

This is probably the best decision even though it hurts. The fact that he continues to attack and goes for the throat really worries me. He could instantly be a 100% different dog in a different home. Not every dog is fit for every home. I hope the adoption group can continue to give you updates on his progress

[Guest colander_girl]

I see several parrallels to my Minny. He too would have fairly vicious attacks on animal and human without any warning(no observable triggers etc.). I finally came to the conclusion after extensive research it was a type of epilepsy- I would lovingly call them brain farts-and did some research determining it was influenced by corn in the diet. Some dogs cannot eat corn-it mimics seratonin and lessens inhibitons etc is what I found out I believe. Anyway Minny was also the most empathic creature I've ever known. I was his foster and when my soulmate Slim crossed over and I was a wreck Minny managed to get thrown out of his "home" and came back to me-he knew I needed him. So he just worn a muzzle 24/7 and was closely supervised. He didn't care. He didn't want to hurt anybody and without his muzzie on he might so he was fine with it. Days before he turned 9 years old he had a sudden first time ever and severe siezure and it was determined he had brain cancer. I now think his unexplained aggression was a result of a slow growing cancer that was there all along. So hideous that happenned. He was possibly the most intelligent dog I have ever had. Looking back I would change nothing in the way we lived. Simply using a muzzle and being vigilant gave us many years to share each others love. And at the end I must tell you he demonstated a courage and braveness and honor and dignity without parallel-his soul is truly among lions.

 

I didn't know that about corn. We've had them on all kinds of food--Blue Buffalo, Avo-Derm, Solid Gold Wolf King, Nutro, Natural Balance. I know corn is a common ingredient in dog foods but we found they do best on chicken & brown rice formulas so that's what they typically get (except for a brief time when we went for all-meat and then all-veggie trying to diagnose a possible food alergy in our girl). Thank you for sharing your story!

[NeylasMom]

Ok, for those following. My DH insists he cannot stay with us, and I know he's right but I really wish we could keep him. He spoke with our adoption group who has someone who will take him. We will hear back with more info.

 

I took him for a blood draw an hour ago, for those who know it's: ANTECH T497 T4 Post Pill (he has this test every 6 months)*

 

We're bringing him back to the vet on Friday to get the results, and to have his corns looked at/hulled. I am very sad about losing him but I am happy that he gets another chance. He really is a good boy most of the time.

 

*ETA: Except it was only 3 months ago that he had it last.

Just a note that as someone mentioned upthread a full thyroid panel is needed to dx thyroid disease. I hope the group will look at this more closely when they have him back (unless you did a full panel before the initial dx, but I suspect that your vet only ran the T4 as many do - he may be unnecssarily medicated as a result).

 

I'm really sorry that you're having to make this decision and I hope that the group is able to find a workable solution for him.

[Guest colander_girl]

Sometimes dogs are trained out of giving warning signals, by punishing them or interrupting them or by "reinforcing dominance over them" when they do try to give warning signals (a growl or a lip-lift = I'm being yelled at or punished in some way...I guess I shouldn't give a warning then). It doesn't mean that you had done it, but maybe his "fuse" was already short (we all know people that way, so why not in dogs too?) and even once telling a dog not to tell someone to back off with a dog warning might make him decide no warnings are allowed and you just have to tell the ones scaring or upsetting you more forcefully (teeth).

 

Also, "calming signals" aren't just things like play bowing. They can be things like nose licking, tongue flicking, yawns, shaking off imaginary water, a head turn away, an eye-movement away, even just a slight tightening of the lips to show discomfort. All of those signals can indicate stress, and when under stress the fuse shortens considerably. Even the "freeze and stare" is a warning signal, which happens as an absolute last minute before the threshhold of violence is breached. Getting away at that point is nearly impossible, unless you have reactions as fast as the animal you're dealing with (very unlikely).

 

Our Allie (nongrey) has some aggression issues toward dogs, but those are based on fear. Instead of punishing or chastizing her for growling at other dogs when she sees them I've taken to watching her like a hawk when we're out and she sees another dog and I now reward her for doing *any* of the calming signals. And it has helped her. (Not saying that it would work for your boy, but if you can catch the "I'm getting stressed" signals if he is still giving them, maybe you can help turn the tide. An animal behaviorist who has lots of experience and uses positive methods can really help! They know the signs to look for, and may be able to catch something as fleeting as less than a second that you'd only be able to see in slow motion on a recording.)

 

Good luck with your boy.

 

Thank you! I never see any of the calming signals in him in situations where he eventually attacks. I see them at other times when he's just walking around doing his thing. He does the "shaking off imaginary water" almost every time he gets up from a nap and stretches, but I always attributed it to him just rearranging his fur. I'm sure he may give off other signals so subtle that they aren't noticed. If he ever did growl at me I'd actually be happy about it. But yes, by the time I notice the still stare, his teeth are heading toward me.

 

Ok, for those following. My DH insists he cannot stay with us, and I know he's right but I really wish we could keep him. He spoke with our adoption group who has someone who will take him. We will hear back with more info.

 

I took him for a blood draw an hour ago, for those who know it's: ANTECH T497 T4 Post Pill (he has this test every 6 months)*

 

We're bringing him back to the vet on Friday to get the results, and to have his corns looked at/hulled. I am very sad about losing him but I am happy that he gets another chance. He really is a good boy most of the time.

 

*ETA: Except it was only 3 months ago that he had it last.

Just a note that as someone mentioned upthread a full thyroid panel is needed to dx thyroid disease. I hope the group will look at this more closely when they have him back (unless you did a full panel before the initial dx, but I suspect that your vet only ran the T4 as many do - he may be unnecssarily medicated as a result).

 

I'm really sorry that you're having to make this decision and I hope that the group is able to find a workable solution for him.

 

Oh wow, shows what I know. I thought a T4 was a full thyroid panel. Surely he did have a full panel before the initial diagnosis, but I will find out on Friday. Thanks for the info!

 

(((((((HUGSSSS))))))))))))

 

This is probably the best decision even though it hurts. The fact that he continues to attack and goes for the throat really worries me. He could instantly be a 100% different dog in a different home. Not every dog is fit for every home. I hope the adoption group can continue to give you updates on his progress

 

Thank you!!! I really hope you are right. I hope he is only a 1% different dog, because he's absolutely great 99% of the time! :-)

[NeylasMom]

Oh wow, shows what I know. I thought a T4 was a full thyroid panel. Surely he did have a full panel before the initial diagnosis, but I will find out on Friday. Thanks for the info!

A full panel looks at T4, free T4 (a more accurate reading essentially), TSH, T3, and thyroid antibodies. Generally with true hypothyroidism, you see a low T4/free T4 and an elevated TSH. The latter is particularly useful diagnostically for a greyhound because their T4 values can run "abnormally" low (according to lab normals) without hypothyroidism being present so basing a diagnosis on T4 makes no sense. It's better to have all of the values, plus look at whether the dog actually has any symptoms. Then if you suspect the disease, evaluating whether there are improvements when the dog is put on medication.

 

Many vets aren't that familiar with this greyhound idiosyncrasy and therefore (mis)diagnose based only on the low T4.

 

Helpful information here: Dr. Stack's article & Dr. Freeman's article

Edited July 3, 2012 by NeylasMom

[Guest colander_girl]

Oh wow, shows what I know. I thought a T4 was a full thyroid panel. Surely he did have a full panel before the initial diagnosis, but I will find out on Friday. Thanks for the info!

A full panel looks at T4, free T4 (a more accurate reading essentially), TSH, T3, and thyroid antibodies. Generally with true hypothyroidism, you see a low T4/free T4 and an elevated TSH. The latter is particularly useful diagnostically for a greyhound because their T4 values can run "abnormally" low (according to lab normals) without hypothyroidism being present so basing a diagnosis on T4 makes no sense. It's better to have all of the values, plus look at whether the dog actually has any symptoms. Then if you suspect the disease, evaluating whether there are improvements when the dog is put on medication.

 

Many vets aren't that familiar with this greyhound idiosyncrasy and therefore (mis)diagnose based only on the low T4.

 

Helpful information here: Dr. Stack's article & Dr. Freeman's article

 

Thanks for the info! We do have a greyhound-savvy vet, when she first diagnosed him she said his levels were "low, even for a greyhound." We definitely noticed an improvement in his overall mood when he was put on the medication, he went over a year without any incidents, then he snapped at my grandfather but didn't make contact (which I totally understood in that situation), and went about another year before he went for DH in March.

 

Just went through my vet receipts, he had this test done after his first attack, and I can't find any other tests but will still ask the vet:

 

THYROXINE (T4)/CHOLESTEROL VS2

 

Ok, for those following. My DH insists he cannot stay with us, and I know he's right but I really wish we could keep him. He spoke with our adoption group who has someone who will take him. We will hear back with more info.

 

I took him for a blood draw an hour ago, for those who know it's: ANTECH T497 T4 Post Pill (he has this test every 6 months)*

 

We're bringing him back to the vet on Friday to get the results, and to have his corns looked at/hulled. I am very sad about losing him but I am happy that he gets another chance. He really is a good boy most of the time.

 

*ETA: Except it was only 3 months ago that he had it last.

 

Let me amend, just talked with my DH, and the adoption agency board has to first approve his return. So, fingers crossed!

[JAJ2010]

I'm sorry... I know I shouldn't be laughing..... Do groups really have to "approve" returns

[vjgrey]

Approve a return?! Do they really reject some? What do they think happens to those dogs?

[Guest colander_girl]

Approve a return?! Do they really reject some? What do they think happens to those dogs?

 

I assume if they feel he is too much of a liability, or beyond hope, or that they don't have the resources to deal with him, that they won't take him. I hope that's not the case though.

[vjgrey]

Approve a return?! Do they really reject some? What do they think happens to those dogs?

 

I assume if they feel he is too much of a liability, or beyond hope, or that they don't have the resources to deal with him, that they won't take him. I hope that's not the case though.

 

In my opinion, none of those are good reasons for a group to reject a return, but I hope they're able to help you.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I think in the best interest of all he should be returned. You have certainly gone above and beyond in trying to work with him but your home just doesn't seem to be the environment he needs. Looking back some of the episodes involved:

 

"...too close while he was lying in bed"

"...trying to pet him lying down"

"...pulling on his feet".

 

Over and over adults as well as children don't seem to be taking appropriate caution in dealing with a dog prone to agression. That may make him more prone to lash out at other times. As far as his nails I've had more than one dog that would cause trouble with me but never made a peep at the vet or groomer and was told that is not uncommon.

 

Yes, I think there is probably a home out there for him.

 

I agree with Pam. This dog sounds exactly like my boy Teagan. He has severe space and sleep aggression.

 

Return him to the group. It is in the best interest for all involved. Especially with children in the home. Good luck.

[GreytNut]

The behavior you describe sounds like it could be caused by a brain tumor or seizure. It is not normal for a dog to go from perfectly relaxed and happy to viciously attacking with absolutely no warning or provocation. So if you aren't missing his warning cues and he really is attacking out of the clear blue, I would put money on it that he is suffering from a neurological problem and that he may not even be aware of what he is doing. If that's the case punishment will not be effective, but you do have to protect yourself. Muzzling him until your adoption group can take him is essential to your safety, but make sure you also muzzle your other dog.

 

I am sorry you have to give up your boy, and I hope the group is able to discover and treat whatever is causing the problem.

[revamp]

All I know is that as a (usually) kind and loving human being, if I had some disorder (tumor, cancer, etc) that caused me to flip out and violently attack my loved ones, I would not want them to accommodate/tolerate me if the problem could not be fixed. The worst thing that could possibly happen is for me to injure a loved one in an uncontrolled moment and never be able to live with myself.

 

I know these are human emotions and we are talking about a canine, but if he is as kind and gentle and loving a creature as has been described I feel it is all the more cruel to abandon him (rehome) or keep him caged/muzzled (and even a muzzled dog can cause a good deal of damage and pain). As has been stated previously, dogs are sensitive and intuitive and he knows he's feared and disliked. Sometimes the most loving, responsible action you can take is to relieve the suffering of your pet--either physical or emotional suffering.

[Guest maidmarcia]

All I know is that as a (usually) kind and loving human being, if I had some disorder (tumor, cancer, etc) that caused me to flip out and violently attack my loved ones, I would not want them to accommodate/tolerate me if the problem could not be fixed. The worst thing that could possibly happen is for me to injure a loved one in an uncontrolled moment and never be able to live with myself.

 

I know these are human emotions and we are talking about a canine, but if he is as kind and gentle and loving a creature as has been described I feel it is all the more cruel to abandon him (rehome) or keep him caged/muzzled (and even a muzzled dog can cause a good deal of damage and pain). As has been stated previously, dogs are sensitive and intuitive and he knows he's feared and disliked. Sometimes the most loving, responsible action you can take is to relieve the suffering of your pet--either physical or emotional suffering.

 

Yes,

[Guest karilynn]

I do not have any advice to share, but I wanted to tell you that I know how hard it is to make a decision like that and I wish all the best for you, your family, and for him, as well. Sometimes doing what is best for everyone involved is the hardest thing in the world. You have honestly given him more chances than most people would have and that is very admirable.

 

I had a cat who was diabetic and I tried for nearly 2 years to regulate it with every type of insulin and food on Earth, but nothing worked for him and he got down to 4 pounds when I finally decided it was time to let go. He was just so sick. It was the hardest decision I've ever had to made but it was in his best interest.

 

I hope the group finds him the perfect home for his behavioral situation. You are doing the right thing.

[Guest june]

I am just now reading this and I am so sorry for what you are going through. I had a beautiful girl that I loved very much. One day she lunged for one of the other greys without provocation. I was quick and grabbed her in time to stop her from getting her, but she then turned on me and bit me on the arm; not breaking skin but leaving large bruises from her teeth through a long sleeved top. Had a full thyroid panel done and everything was fine. Physical; everything was fine with no pain response. I went to a trainer I trust and he helped me with positive reinforcement every time she was near one of the other dogs and she seemed to be doing really well. Very sweet and loving; a real snuggle bug. Because I know dogs and know things can set them off she was always muzzled when I wasn't home.

 

I came home one day to one of the most horrible sights I ever want to see. She had gotten her muzzle off and attacked one of the other dogs. She had done a lot of damage; tearing the other dog's shoulder open, several bites on her abdomen, sides and back. An emergency vet visit that I still relive in nightmares. We ran all the tests again and nothing was wrong. Like you, I was faced with two choices I didn't like. I did think of trying to keep her but the dog she attacked was afraid of her after the attack and I didn't want to keep her in a crate. She was returned to the rescue and is an only dog with a single person. So far she has been happy and it is two years and I am grateful to the person who adopted her. I still love and miss her.

 

I do understand how hard this is for you and I'm keeping you in my thoughts and prayers.

june

[macoduck]

Regarding the thyroid test. If they only ran a T4 you could call your vet in the morning and have them run the full panel. Hopefully they still have the draw and your boy won't have to go through another.

[Batmom]

Regarding the thyroid test. If they only ran a T4 you could call your vet in the morning and have them run the full panel. Hopefully they still have the draw and your boy won't have to go through another.

 

A full panel won't be very useful if the dog is already on thyroid meds. They have to be off for @ 6 weeks.

[macoduck]

Regarding the thyroid test. If they only ran a T4 you could call your vet in the morning and have them run the full panel. Hopefully they still have the draw and your boy won't have to go through another.

 

A full panel won't be very useful if the dog is already on thyroid meds. They have to be off for @ 6 weeks.

Oh, I forgot about that. Can thyroid meds be stopped cold turkey or they need to be gradually reduced?

Edited July 4, 2012 by macoduck

[krissn333]

We had a cat who would attack us when he was overstimulated...he would come to you for petting or brushing or playing, but he'd reach a point where he was overstimulated and his brain just didn't know what to do with those feelings, so he'd suddenly just come at you. We learned to just put a time limit on our interactions with him, although at some point we did start to notice the signs that he was headed over the edge...suddenly his pupils would get VERY big.

 

In hearing your descriptions it makes me wonder if this might be something similar, although I also think this sounds like something wrong in his brain-tumor, epilepsy, or even a problem with the pituitary gland. A TSH level will tell you about the pituitary gland function, but, as Batmom said, he'd need to be off his meds.

 

Seems absurd for a group to need to "approve" a return...I'm guessing they just want to convene the board of directors to come up with a plan first, and to find someone willing to take him on.

[Brandiandwe]

I've got nothing to add, except to say that I'm so sorry you're going through this. You've really gone beyond what most people would do, and you'll make the right decision for everyone concerned. Hugs.

[Guest colander_girl]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone for the advice, encouragement and for sharing your stories! I will keep you posted on what happens.

[JJNg]

This situation is one that I just can't stop thinking about. Going back to the original question of when "enough is enough," I think the answer depends a lot on whose perspective you're looking at.

 

Purely from the dog's perspective, I feel that there is almost never a case where "enough is enough." The only situation would be if the dog is actually suffering. For example, a dog who is constantly in a fearful or anxious state of mind, for whom no comfort zone can be found even with calm, controlled environments and medication. Almost all dogs with issues can thrive if they can be provided with the appropriate environment and an understanding owner. The problem is whether the right home can be found, as ones who are willing and able to handle aggression like this are quite rare.

 

I'm impressed with the number of members here who have kept and are willing to work with dogs like this. A far larger number of people are unable to comprehend why anyone would want to keep a dog who bites, especially one who bites his owner. Even within the vet profession, I've found that most of my classmates, colleagues, co-workers, and close friends never really understood my bond with Casey and why I put up with him attacking me.

 

Another perspective is that of the family living with the dog. Working with a difficult dog is not something that everyone is willing or able to do. Many people don't have the patience or tolerance required. Even if it's something that we might choose to do, I don't believe it's our place to judge those who decide not to. With aggression issues, there is always inherent risk involved. And for a family with other dogs, or especially with children, the safety for the other members of the household have to be taken into consideration.

 

Finally, there's the perspective of the adoption group, if the dog is a foster or potential return. In addition to taking into account the dog's needs and the abilities of the foster home who will be caring for the dog, a group also has to consider the additional the concerns of liability and public responsibility. No matter how carefully homes are screened, once a dog leaves care of the group, the future is out of their control. Unfortunately, since we live in a society that tends to be intolerant and not very understanding of normal dog behavior, as well as one where lawsuits are quite common, these are factors that often can't be ignored.

 

I have to wonder about all the quick responses of "return him to the group". I truly hope the OP's group has the resources and open-mindedness to give this dog a fair assessment and another chance, but I don't feel that anything I wrote in my previous post was unfair, just realistic. I think it's only fair that someone deciding to return a dog like this should be aware that there may be a good chance the dog will end up being euthanized. For those of you who are involved with greyhound groups, can you honestly say that if a dog with such a severe history of aggressive attacks was returned to your group that 1) you'd have someone willing and able to foster and work with him and 2) he'd be considered a good candidate to be made available for adoption even if he did well in a foster home?

 

As KennelMom and others have said, all dogs can bite. They just differ in the threshold at which they are pushed to bite, as well as their bite inhibition and severity of the bite or attack. And these, in turn, are influenced by past experiences and current stress levels. However, once a dog how shown a tendency toward a low bite threshold and severe, uninhibited attacks, I do feel that dog will always have the potential to repeat that behavior if stressed or pushed beyond their threshold in the future. And dogs owners often inadvertently push dogs to react defensively simply out of a lack of knowledge about body language and canine etiquette.

 

I do want to comment that while this dog's aggressive outbursts seem to be unpredictable, I don't feel they are random in a way that would suggest a seizure disorder. With my reactive dog who had similar responses, I often wondered if his sudden, violent reactions were somewhat along the lines of post-traumatic stress disorder. I chose not to medicate him since he was normal the majority of the time, and I just did my best to avoid doing things that would trigger him.

 

I do believe that dog's almost always bite for a reason, the most common of which is self-defense out of fear or stress. Especially for dogs that bite in self defense, I don't think that 'getting a taste of blood' has anything to do with future attacks. Dogs that kill other animals due to prey drive might be a different matter.

[Guest iconsmum]

Contact your adoption group. If they won't take him on as a responsibility, it is my personal opinion (and I've stated it frequently) that there are too many well-behaved and well-adjusted dogs dying in shelters to allow an dangerously unpredictable and vicious dog to injure people and further damage the reputation of dogs and dog-owners.

 

In my view, after all reasonable attempts have been made to medically treat and professionally train the dog and they have not benefited in a trustworthy, or at a minimum predictable dog, then the humane thing to do is to euthanize. Attempting to rehome a dog that doesn't merely snap or nip, but violently and repeatedly attacks, is just asking for some kid to be permanently mutilated, or the poor dog to live out the rest of his life in a cage.

 

 

Yup - I'm a trainer and I totally agree with this

[Batmom]

Contact your adoption group. If they won't take him on as a responsibility, it is my personal opinion (and I've stated it frequently) that there are too many well-behaved and well-adjusted dogs dying in shelters to allow an dangerously unpredictable and vicious dog to injure people and further damage the reputation of dogs and dog-owners.

 

In my view, after all reasonable attempts have been made to medically treat and professionally train the dog and they have not benefited in a trustworthy, or at a minimum predictable dog, then the humane thing to do is to euthanize. Attempting to rehome a dog that doesn't merely snap or nip, but violently and repeatedly attacks, is just asking for some kid to be permanently mutilated, or the poor dog to live out the rest of his life in a cage.

 

 

Yup - I'm a trainer and I totally agree with this

 

In this case, I disagree.

 

This dog hasn't had appropriate medical treatment (thyroid evaluation), hasn't had professional training, and (per OP's posts) appears to be quite predictable.

 

JJNG, I suspect the many recommendations to return the dog to the group stem from OP's environment. OP has a small child, and that makes it difficult to safely evaluate and train a dog with some apparent space sensitivity.