The Sky Is Falling.....

[Echobelly1]

We've had Gila about 4 months now. She's a very timid 3 year old female. She was with a foster family for 6 months before we got her. We also have a very brave 3 year old male, and they get along great. The problem is, Gila is in a near constant state of fear. Her life is very structured and we assumed she would eventually calm down, especially with a brother who is fearless to teach her. She jumps at every little noise, watches the pictures on the wall when she walks through house, like they're going to jump out at her, hates going through doors, won't go into a room with a ceiling fan, shakes when it's windy out, you get the idea. She's very sweet and I hate to see her like this. One thing that's surprising, she doesn't seem to be afraid of thunder storms (so far). I'm considering starting her on clomicalm and was wondering if anyone has had any experience with this medication. I thought I'd ask here first before bringing her to the vet. That's a very traumatic experience for her (and me).

[GeorgeofNE]

She sounds like a good candidate for medication. And with time, she may improve. 4 years isn't really that long. I'm fortunate that I have a fearless dog, so I can't help much except to say I know people have had excellent success with medication with spooks like yours! Good luck!

[Batmom]

Clomicalm is designed to help treat separation anxiety in conjunction with behavioral modification.

 

There are other meds for general anxiety, but unless she's completely nonfunctional and a danger to herself, I'd leave her be (unmedicated) for at least another 3-4 months and possibly longer.

 

 

[JohnF]

How about telling her 'it's OK really' with Calming Signals?

 

If she is showing spook fear and doing a lot of licking and yawning and can't look you in the eye easily, send her this signal back: lick towards your nose, yawn widely and look away.

That says not only that you 'get' how she feels but you are on the case and comfortable with it too.

 

We can indavertantly exacerbate their fear by anticipating it and sending out bad energy.

 

See Turid Rugass's article here

[Echobelly1]

Greyaholic: I didn't realize Clomicalm was for Separation Anxiety. Gila has the opposite, she's most comfortable in a dark room all by herself with no one home. She's not due to go to the vet till July, so I was going to wait till then and see if there's any improvement.

 

Jr Grey Lover: She isn't doing a lot of licking and yawning, but I will try using calming signals with her. I have Turid Rugass's book and have read it a number of times. I don't think I'm sending out bad energy, I try to be very calm and patient and praise her for every step, but I know what you mean.

[robinw]

I'd give her some more time. Four months isn't really very long.

[cleptogrey]

it took annie 9 months to learn how to get into the car

4 long visits(2-3 weeks at a time)of my sil&dd staying here until she finally did not hide from my SIL

over a year and a half not to freak out when i vacumme- an i use it every other day

to name a couple of things that my sensitive girl overcame. we have had her a tad over 2 years. she still jumps when things unexpectancly fall or even when i sneeze- she growls/jumps and runs.

 

give your pup time. keep the crate, her safe place erected and filled w/ comfortable blankets and a bed. positive reinforcement and maybe some clicker training in a couple of months might help. (it's all positive reinfocement)give her time to blossom. annie now hangs out when SIL visits. she walks past the vacumme cleaner, moved into our bedroom and has become a faithful companion. she still freaks out at my sneezing, but has learned to be at peace w/ her not so new environment(except electrical storms-but i'm working on that) and is taking things in stride.

Edited May 8, 2012 by cleptogrey

[philospher77]

My Katie came to me almost entirely shut down. Wouldn't voluntarily leave her crate to eat, drink, or eliminate, would shut down if you looked at her, didn't want anything to do with me, definitely did NOT want to go outside, and would desperately try and squeeze back into her crate if I got her out of it and closed the door. I did a lot of slow and steady work with her, and finally, after about a year and a bit, decided to put her on drugs. Started with generic Elavil (a TCA) and recently switched to generic Prozac (an SSRI). To this day, I regret waiting as long as I did to try the drugs. She is happy when she is on them. Without them, she is often "content", and sometimes stressed. I had to do a washout period between switching the drugs, and it was shocking (and saddening) to see how much she regressed without them to help even out her mood. If you have had Gila 4 months, and she is still spooking to "routine" things, I think I would be considering at least trying drugs. I'd probably also be hunting up a behaviorist or someone with a LOT of experience with spooks for advice on managing the situation and counter-conditioning. Drugs aren't a miracle cure, but they do make it easier for the dog to learn and make new associations.

 

Here's a link to a blog I kept while transitioning Katie from one drug to the next: http://katies-journey-philospher77.blogspot.com/ It's strictly my notes so that I can look back later and see what was going on at the time, so nothing fancy. But you might find it helpful.

[JJNg]

Hard to say without seeing her, but if she's living in a constant state of anxiety and there has been no improvement over the past 4 months, I would be considering medication sooner rather than later. Meds may help with the adjustment, and you can wean her back off later.

 

While Clomicalm (clomipramine) is only FDA labeled for separation anxiety, it is a TCA (tricyclic antidepressant) that is used 'off-label' for a number of other behavior problems including generalized anxiety and fear aggression. Prozac (Reconcile, fluoxetine) is another commonly used first choice antidepressant/anti-anxiety medication for problems like this.

[Guest SusanP]

We've used clomipramine short-term for Spinner when he's developed a fear of going up stairs at our house and we couldn't get him over it. After about 2 weeks on it, he became brave enough to try the stairs with encouragement, and soon after, we tapered off the meds. It's not a magic bullet, but it can take the edge off the fear, allowing the dog to work through it.

 

We also use it on Zippy during T-storm season to prevent daily attacks of panic when there is no storm, something that occurs all spring and summer with her on even the sunniest of days if we don't have her on it.

 

So I wouldn't say that the drug is specific to one use only. I'd have a chat with your vet over the phone before scheduling an appt.

[racindog]

Goldie was very similar when I got him. He was soooo terrified. I was concerned the resulting stress would make him ill and began giving him Rescue Remedy once a day. I did not haev the knowledge at the time to know about using the Bach Remedies individually. Minimus/ rock rose etc. would help your pup. Anyway he responded to the Rescue Remedy. He GRADUALLY improved. I too had a VERY "outgoing"(aggressive) grey named Slim he was buds with. I continued giving him the RR for ~ 2 years. At about the 3rd year he basically was "normal" and no longer fearful of everything etc. and I quit giving it to him. After that he actually became brave and bold!!!!!! No one would ever guess that he started out as a spooky fraidy cat. Even his bark changed. When he first arrived it was a weak little girl squeak. Later it was a deep loud big dog bark. It is wonderful you have the otehr brave dog -that will help a lot. With love and time she can change very dramatically so try not to worry too much. I would bet she, like Goldie, will greatly improve. Also the Bach Remedies are ideal for dogs like her-totally natural, safe, cheap and effective.

[Batmom]

What types of behavior modification or training are you using to help her be more comfortable in her surroundings?

 

And, is she terrified -- shaking, drippy nose, etc. -- all day long, everywhere, or are there some circumstances where she is comfortable?

 

The reason I am asking those question is twofold:

 

1. In 99.9% of cases, the point of medication is to make the dog more amenable to training, not to suddenly change the dog so training isn't needed. I'm not suggesting that you *aren't* working on those things -- you haven't said -- just that if there is behavior you want to change, there needs to be some commitment to a training program. My angel Zema was terrified of many things when she first came home -- balloons tied to mailboxes, the vacuum cleaner, any sudden movement by the people, strangers of any sort, garage doors, enclosed crates, cars (mostly moving but sometimes not), the vet's office, you name it. With training, she developed into a dog who behaved normally in most circumstances. The training we did was time consuming and sometimes frustrating, and I'd've had to do it even if she'd been medicated (which people didn't much do 12 years ago).

 

2. All dogs are different. I have a dog who is frightened of windy days, terrified of beepy noises, and who will not retrieve his toy from behind the rocking chair even though there is plenty of room for a large dog to get back there. He isn't crazy about the vet's office either and needs very careful handling for some minor procedures. I could probably work on some of those things but they aren't intrusive into his daily life for the most part -- there's no reason for him to be exactly like my other dog in those matters. He spent his first couple months here with a "deer in the headlights" manner and being very nervous whenever taken outdoors (to the point of freaking out at, say, a leaf falling from a tree). At that time he fit the profile of what many people now seem to use antidepressant medications for, yet I can't imagine medicating him for that -- it was part of the normal settling in process for this dog in a new environment.

 

I don't have a statutory objection to psychoactive medications for dogs, but I have noticed that over the last few years dog owners are much more apt to jump to medications and forget about the training, time, and patience part. We're not there observing your household so we can't adequately evaluate whether your dog needs medication to benefit from training, or whether she just needs some steady work and time. If there is a qualified behaviorist in your area, it might be worth getting his/her opinion. Good luck!

[Echobelly1]

@Batmom-

 

Thanks for the encouragement, I know I need to be more patient! Luckily she isn't panicked all the time, no shaking or dripping nose, just extremely nervous. There are occasions she is actually relaxed and playful, she enjoys exploring our large (fenced in) yard and chasing squirrells, as long as it's not windy. In this part of FL, there's either no wind, or it's VERY windy, so it's hard for her to get used to everything moving when it happens. She is VERY reluctant to get in the car. The previous foster said her only experience with cars was for many vet visits to have a broken leg from the track re-set. At first I didn't force the issue, she was happy to stay home while I took Hadji for his morning excursion to a nearby conservation area. Then I thought I was just enabling her fear, and decided to encourage her to come with us. She has improved. It's gotten to the point where she gets excited when she sees I'm getting ready to go (it helps that Hadji's going crazy with excitement, too!) and comes outside with us, but puts on the brakes 10' from the car. Some mornings I carry her the rest of the way, others I push, encouraging her the whole time, and give her a treat and more praise when she's in the car. She seems to enjoy the actual car ride, loves the walk through the woods (there are rarely any scary people there), but when we get back to the car, on go the brakes again. We do this every morning, I like routine as well as the dogs do! I think this will take a little more time till she gets realizes that we are actually going to the park, not the vet. Any advice would be appreciated on dealing with the car thing. I did try spending some time just putting her in the car and giving her treats over and over, but it seemed to stress her. I think once a day is enough.

[Batmom]

Re the car: I would probably keep doing what you're doing and take her for that car ride and walkies. I would try to make her walk the distance herself but sometimes I know that doesn't work . I suspect in a week or two she'll be flying on in on her own.

[Echobelly1]

Re the car: I would probably keep doing what you're doing and take her for that car ride and walkies. I would try to make her walk the distance herself but sometimes I know that doesn't work . I suspect in a week or two she'll be flying on in on her own.

 

Thanks, but I think it's going to take more than a week or two! We went away for one overnight last weekend and left her and Hadji with a nearby doggie daycare. She seemed to enjoy it, they said she was great. When we picked them up, she was playing with a cocker spaniel in the yard (she doesn't play with Hadji, he's too rough and nipped her once, that was the end of that). We called her, expecting her to come running over. Nope. You'd think she had no idea who we were. It took two of us to get her in the car. Then she didn't want to go in the house. For two days now she's been afraid of the ceiling in the house, constantly looking at it worried and moving from room to room. Taking her to the park this morning, she put on the brakes at the front door, not a leash distance from the car like usual. She's definitely more comfortable outside, as long as the wind isn't blowing, and we let her spend a lot of time outside, but it's getting pretty hot down here, so I make sure she spends most of the afternoon in the house with A.C. She may be physically more comfortable, but I don't think mentally. I'm sure by the end of the summer (fingers crossed) we'll look back and say "remember how she used to be afraid of everything?!". We do that now with Hadji, concerning his S.A. before we got Gila.

[Guest Jacks_Human]

Jack was a mess when I first adopted him-- terrified of so many things because of his traumatic past (interestinly, novel things are rarely a problem-- for example, he has never been afraid of the vacuum cleaner). But has gotten amazingly better, so there is hope

 

If she is showing spook fear and doing a lot of licking and yawning and can't look you in the eye easily, send her this signal back: lick towards your nose, yawn widely and look away.

That says not only that you 'get' how she feels but you are on the case and comfortable with it too.

We can indavertantly exacerbate their fear by anticipating it and sending out bad energy.

Also make sure you're not rewarding fear behaviour by doing stuff such as cooing and petting her when she spooks. Make sure you speak in an even, confident voice so she knows you're there and the situation is under control, but not coddling her.

 

Hard to say without seeing her, but if she's living in a constant state of anxiety and there has been no improvement over the past 4 months, I would be considering medication sooner rather than later. Meds may help with the adjustment, and you can wean her back off later.

 

It may help to 'take the edge off' so training can be effective. If she's too scared to take in behavioural modifications, it might be harder to help her.

[Xan]

You're getting some great advice here (especially like Batmom's, and the calming signals), so I'll just throw in my own two cents.

I have two dogs with fear issues of different kinds. Pogo is scared of ... all sorts of things, including area rugs. He's also pretty reactive, which has led to dog aggression at times.

Katie (a borzoi) was scared of pretty much everything when we got her in December.

 

Pogo's fear seems to be helped by a DAP collar, which we just keep him wearing at all times now. But, he also seems to be helped by clicker training through specific fears (like the area rug). Luckily, he's highly food motivated, and not scared of me. You might try clicker training as a pretty easy way of re-directing her attention to something positive in what was formerly a scary situation. Use high-value treats!

 

Katie's fears have just slowly given 'way over the months, though she still has her moments, and occasionally decides something is not-safe that formerly was. Calming signals, clicker-training, high-value treats for the scariest stuff, all these have helped, along with a lot of low-key normal life going on which she can choose to join or not.

 

We also put Rescue Remedy in the water bucket (just a few drops in half a bucket of water). There are also a lot of alternative supplements that might help, too, with hopefully fewer potential side-effects than drugs might have.

 

I wish you luck! I hope you can get her settled down without drugs, but thank goodness they're available if necessary (maybe temporarily?)

[Echobelly1]

I'll try one of those DAP collars, I hadn't heard about them, but a quick search showed the Petco near me carries them. I'm a little concerned because Gila's actually gotten worse since we left her overnight with the dog sitter a week ago. It's hard to get her in the house, and when she does come in, she stares at the ceiling and hides in a corner of the bedroom. She doesn't stay in whatever room we're in anymore. I think the dog sitter had ceiling fans that really freaked her out.

[Batmom]

Poor little peanut. Really might be worth a behaviorist visit if there's a good one around. I can think of some things that I've done to get dogs over things like that, but really depends on the individual dog -- not something that can be worked thru on a message board.

[Echobelly1]

Update: I tried to get a DAP collar, but it seems all of them in my area are defective (when you open the package all the pheromones flake off and make a mess). One of the store managers opened a dozen of them, and they all had this problem. She said the truck shipping to this area (southern FL) must have been really hot and damaged them. I went to the vet begging for some sort of tranquilizer for her (the one time I brought her in, they could see how petrified she was, I had to carry her into the office, and she shook the whole time, and this was when she was better). They gave me Clomicalm to try. Unfortunately it could take a month till we see any effects. I begged for some xanax for her till the Clomicalm had time to work, but since we live in the center of prescription drug abuse for the country, the vet won't prescribe it. He suggested benadry, which doesn't have any effect on her. I keep looking for signs that she's improving just a little, but there really aren't any, if anything, she seems to be more frightened with each day.

[Batmom]

Are there any behaviorists in your area, that you could consult with?

[robinw]

Will she take treats from you? If she does, try giving her some every time she is around you or in a new situation. If she's not yet taking them from you, try throwing one of two on the floor, gradually throwing them closer to you. Once she starts to take them from you, then you can give her one every time she isn't freaking out. I also live with a Gila type dog, and the treats have really helped. With treats and patience, you might be able to avoid medication.

 

Good luck!

Edited May 23, 2012 by robinw

[Wonder]

I really feel for you. Lucky is scared of so many things. I've had him 4 years and he still freaks out in new places, the vet, ceiling fans, windy days (will refuse to go outside) and now he won't go outside once it's dark (stupid fire works!!).

[Guest Liz_in_PA]

Are there any behaviorists in your area, that you could consult with?

 

Batmom,

how would OP find a behaviorist? Any estimates as to cost of one?

[Echobelly1]

I tend to shy away from behaviorists. I've tried a couple in the past, and have never gotten any more help than from a book. Patricia McConnell is probably one of the few I would trust, but she's way too far from me, and I think out of my price range!

 

@RobinW- Gila will take treats, but only when she's not stressed. Gila's our fifth grey, and none of them have been so treat driven that one could get them to do anything.They have no effect on luring her to the car, but once I lift her in, she takes one happily. At least she's not afraid of thunderstorms, as we have very severe ones in southern Florida. I give both dogs a rawhide treat in the yard before bed, and even though it started pouring and thundering halfway into the chew, she happily stayed out to finish it. It still took a lot of coaxing to get her back in the house, even though we were having a storm.

 

@Wonder- Four years! oh my! Our first grey, a good 20 years ago, was petrified of everything, but with daily training, in a matter of months she had made huge improvements. It did take 2 years and a second dog till she was a happy stress-free dog. I would be feeling a little less stress if Gila was showing some improvement. She used to spend most of the day in my office with Hadji and I (It's in a converted guest house on the back of the property). It would take a little coaxing to get her in the door, but then she would settle down and fall asleep. Now she won't come near it, and sleeps on a bed in a covered gazebo. Every morning I take both dogs for a walk in a nearby conservation area, other than the act of getting in the car, Gila seemed to enjoy it. She was usually in the lead sniffing things. This morning she gave me that look from her corner in the bedroom, and I didn't want to add to her stress, so I gave in and left her home. I know it hasn't even been a week, but I can't wait to see if the Clomacalm will help her deal with her fears.