Guest Celestrina Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 So many people will feed grain free only. Others swear by grains. What are the benefits having grains? When should a dog go grain free? What grains are best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Grain free is a fad and a marketing ploy. Dogs aren't "allergic" to "grains" in general although a given dog might be allergic/intolerant to a particular grain (or any other food item). So there's no reason other than fad following for a dog to go grain free. That said, a specific dog might get on best with a specific commercial food, and that food might happen to be grain free. For a performance dog, you want some carbohydrates in the diet. The most nutritious, commonly available grain is probably the much-maligned, totally unfashionable corn . Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mariah Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) According to the nutritional studies they've done, dogs don't have a minimum requirement for carbohydrates. Some people cite this as a reason to not feed grains, but all it means is that feeding your dog a low-carb or no-carb diet will not create a recognizable deficiency. Some dogs do better on grain-free. A lot of times I think it's a matter of personal preference. One of the major benefits of a food with grain added is that it's more economical to feed. Edited March 14, 2012 by mariah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryffenne Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 (edited) All I know is this: Sammi was having a terrible time last summer with itching, scratching and biting at herself. Nothing was toning it down for her. Tried corn, rice and oatmeal based kibbles. Tried benadryl. Tried spray lotions for skin irritations. Washed everything she could touch. nada. We do not have a chest freezer or the space for one at this house, so Raw is not an option in this small town as I would not be able to buy in bulk to offset the cost of it. Within days of trying grain free, the itching, biting and scratching stopped & her poops firmed up again. Tried her briefly back on grain based kibble once "allergy season" was over and within hours she was itching again. *shrugs* fad or not, it works for her until we move and I can start up Raw again. Edited March 14, 2012 by Gryffenne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest thecoyotesgrin Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 I always thought grains necessary - as some wild canines will consume plants to soothe stomachs and supplement a weak diet... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeylasMom Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Grains are not a part of an ideal biologically appropriate diet for dogs. Just because they can subsist on them doesn't mean they should. But this is true of potatoes as well, which is what replaces the grains in the "grain-free" kibbles. Is it better than the other formulas, maybe because they end up having a higher meat content, but they also cost a lot more. I personally think raw is ideal, next to that a home cooked diet, next to that a kibble that works for your dog supplemented with cooked meat. If your dog has skin/coat issues like Gryffenne mentioned, that I would look more closely at eliminating kibble from the diet, or seeing if a grain-free kibble addresses the issue. I also recommend supplementing with fish oil. Quote Jen, CPDT-KA with Zuri, lab in a greyhound suit, Violet, formerly known as Faith, Skye, the permanent puppy, Cisco, resident cat, and my baby girl Neyla, forever in my heart "The great thing about science is that you're free to disagree with it, but you'll be wrong." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest WhiteWave Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 While I don't think dogs need grains and a raw diet it best. It is not always feasible. So if you are going to feed kibble, it depends on the dogs. I really don't think grain free is all that much better than grains when it comes to kibble. They are still using starch/carb, just potatoes or peas in most cases. I have several dogs that do not do well on a food with potatoes. They look and do better on a grain inclusive food vs grain free. I had tried feeding Riddick a grain free puppy food and he lost weight like crazy. Put him on a grain inclusive performance food and he improved. I switched Ronon too and he was eating TOTW and was eating 5 cups a day and was getting ribby. He is eating 2 1/2 cups a day of Native and has more energy, better coat, and poop is small and firm. So while I did get on the grain free bandwagon, my dogs did not, so now I feed what works, not what is popular. Also since feeding Evo for the past 6 weeks to my allergy dogs, Circe has started eating her own poop. Vet feels it is due to the high protein content of the food which is comparable to cat food and reason most dogs love to eat cat poop. So we are done with this food too. We are getting set up to go back to raw. Going to start raising meat rabbits to supplement their diet since anything other chicken is so expensive here. So we gotta get hutches and some new freezers then back to raw. Kibble gives me a headache! But it take so much raw food to feed my pack and my big freezer died, so we went back to kibble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest mariah Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Going to start raising meat rabbits to supplement their diet since anything other chicken is so expensive here. So we gotta get hutches and some new freezers then back to raw. That's some serious dedication, good for you! We also feed raw/home prepared. Even with just one (50lb) dog, our food budget and freezer are definitely maxed out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest elisemg Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 My girl can eat anything except corn. Her toenails pop off anytime she has something with corn in it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnF Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Honestly it depends totally on the individual dog, some thrive with grains others don't. Some have really bad allergies (not a fad). Remember, unlike we humans, they can also live OK on a red meat diet (probably because their lifespan is not long enough for cumulative damage to occur.) If you want to be a real party-pooper on dog food download the PDF here (you may need to click on the reader symbol at the bottom to make it work as on my system it stops unless you do.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeofNE Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Food allergies are, according to the veterinary dermatologist I took my old dog too, much more commonly the PROTEIN source in the food, not the grain. I'm sure there are dogs allergic to grains, just as there are people. But there is nothing evil about grains. If your dog is healthy and happy on whatever you feed it, then it's a good food for your dog. Quote Susan, Hamish, Mister Bigglesworth and Nikita Stanislav. Missing Ming, George, and Buck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sambuca Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) I don't think dogs need any grains. That said,i think everyone should feed a foods that works for the dog. If it's grain free, great. If it's mostly grains, great. It took almost a year to find a food that works for my dog. It happens to be grain free. He can't have chicken or lamb. He does get some grain in treats and does ok. I was so desperate I would have fed the dog saw dust if thats what worked for him. Don't worry about fads and experiment until you find what works. Edited March 15, 2012 by Sambuca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3greytjoys Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 When analyzing dog foods with grains, my understanding is "whole grains" are preferred nutritionally. Some grains are more nutrient rich than others. Good to avoid grain "pieces" used as filler. Following are a couple of informative dog food review sites with good ingredient explanations. Dog Food Reviews: 1. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ (This site owned/run by a doctor.) 2. http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_reviews/ (I've been searching for government regulation with hard scientific nutritional data, but haven't unearthed such a thing (beyond FDA food labeling).) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hilarycable Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Hi All: When you are talking about commercial dog food, grains used in production are often not human grade; they can be rancid, contain insects and rodent feces, and contain molds, mildew and fungus. If they're shipped from overseas, there may be chemical contamination such as melamine from China. I'm not a food scientist, but I suspect these are what make dogs itchy and ill from grain-based commercial dog foods, not the grains themselves. If you add home-cooked, human grade rice, cornmeal, wheat or oatmeal to your dog's food, at least you will know it is safe from a contaminants standpoint. Have you seen "Dr. Pitcairn's New Complete Guide to Natural Health for Dogs and Cats" By Richard Pitcairn DVM? It's an excellent source on home-made nutrition for cats and dogs. Pitcairn is OK with dogs eating grains. I've been cooking for my cat since 2007 using an all-meat & vegetable recipe from this book, and have been feeding my hound raw with grain free-kibble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FastDogsOwnMe Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I prefer grain free, unless I have a dog that needs weight! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindles Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Grain free is a fad and a marketing ploy. I agree with this. "Grain free" foods use tubers instead of grains. It's still a starchy, plant-derived filler no matter how you look at it. Quote | Rachel | Dewty, Trigger, and Charlotte | Missing Dazzle, Echo, and Julio | Learn what your greyhound's life was like before becoming part of yours!"The only thing better than the cutest kitty in the world is any dog." -Daniel Tosh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubcitypam Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) 1. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ (This site owned/run by a doctor.) :riphair :riphair He's a HUMAN DENTIST for cripes sake! He doesn't refer to owning more than one dog whom he thinks died from Science Diet. What does this guy know about dog nutrition ...or dogs in general???? I should go to my vet for dental advice for myself??? Can someone please tell me why we should listen to this guy? I am at a total loss why a human dentist with NO vet background and NO dog breeding background is an expert in canine nutrition. He claims to be an expert at "reading labels" which is exactly what he does. He has loaded his preconceived (not proven in time with many dogs) opinion on each ingredient in a food into a computer and posts what it spits out. 99.9% of the reviews are by the editor. If I'm going to listen to someone about food I want to hear from the person that has had beautiful winning dogs for years. The proof is in the pudding. Greyhounds on farms eat kibble with grain and most show dog owners feed food with grain. My friends father raises gun trained GSP that go for $5,000+. He feeds a food with grain. Grain free is just the new buzzword, and like Rachel said, there is usually some other starch in there. Edited March 15, 2012 by Hubcitypam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedHead Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Although I don't believe dogs need grains, I don't think they are so bad in moderation. Both sides of the argument often have claims that are untrue. I feed a small amount of pasta, bread, rice, or oatmeal and it does no harm. If you asked me if I think a dogs diet should be BASED on grains though, I personally strongly disagree, which is why I don't feed dogfood as a major portion of any of my dog's diets (grain free included). Most dogs will do fine on any food no matter how cheap, simply because they add vitamins and minerals. Over time, feeding this to an animal designed to eat mostly meat is not optimal nutrition in my opinion. Having said that, most dogs survive on this and do fine, but everyone has their own beliefs and theories, so feed whatever you are comfortable with and works! Edited March 15, 2012 by RedHead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feisty49 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 This topic always gets lots of responses. What info we get to feed a dog for best health is much like the info we get about us humans, which means the recommendations are going to change eventually. It takes years to accumulate morbidity data and by then we've moved onto something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3greytjoys Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) 1. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ (This site owned/run by a doctor.) Can someone please tell me why we should listen to this guy? I am at a total loss why a human dentist with NO vet background and NO dog breeding background is an expert in canine nutrition. He claims to be an expert at "reading labels" which is exactly what he does. He has loaded his preconceived (not proven in time with many dogs) opinion on each ingredient in a food into a computer and posts what it spits out. 99.9% of the reviews are by the editor. I'd welcome anyone to provide more highly qualified dog food analysis links. I was simply trying to help OP find some ingredient data. I could not find (unbiased) scientific dog food analysis reports from a veterinary/animal nutritionist (with degree in animal science). Many dog food review sites are clearly linked to their own products. I simply mentioned the first link was run by a "doctor" since that individual has some medical background with a "doctorate" degree. (Higher sciences education than the average volunteer dog food reviewer.) No, he's not a veterinarian. Personally, I don't know many vets that freely discuss detailed data of many specific pet foods. Many vets sell "certain" foods... I assume GTers read data from many sources to form their own opinions. Nothing was mentioned in Pam's post about link #2. To clarify: That site is edited by a small handful of "volunteers with an interest in nutrition" from a Boxer dog forum. Since those dog loving volunteers do not work in the manufacturing plants of all dog food makers, seeing source ingredients, nor do they have access to protected recipes for each food, they too are relying on reading manufacturer food labels. They admit to making an "educated guess" in their reviews. Begin snippet from my original post: " 2. http://www.dogfoodan...g_food_reviews/ (I've been searching for government regulation with hard scientific nutritional data, but haven't unearthed such a thing (beyond FDA food labeling).)" End snippet. If anyone is interested, here is a desk reference book that looks interesting, but it's not a free Web site. It retails for $100.00. Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition, by Wiley-Blackwell. A link I didn't provide originally is www.Whole-Dog-Journal.com, which does name their specific food recommendations, but doesn't offer complete ingredient lists with guaranteed analysis for each food. There is a subscription charge. (I could be mistaken but I don't believe WDJ editor is an animal nutritional scientist either. I'm not sure with whom she collaborates.) Edited March 16, 2012 by 3greytjoys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BrianRke Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 1. http://www.dogfoodadvisor.com/ (This site owned/run by a doctor.) Can someone please tell me why we should listen to this guy? I am at a total loss why a human dentist with NO vet background and NO dog breeding background is an expert in canine nutrition. He claims to be an expert at "reading labels" which is exactly what he does. He has loaded his preconceived (not proven in time with many dogs) opinion on each ingredient in a food into a computer and posts what it spits out. 99.9% of the reviews are by the editor. I'd welcome anyone to provide more highly qualified dog food analysis links. I was simply trying to help OP find some ingredient data. I could not find (unbiased) scientific dog food analysis reports from a veterinary/animal nutritionist (with degree in animal science). Many dog food review sites are clearly linked to their own products. I simply mentioned the first link was run by a "doctor" since that individual has some medical background with a "doctorate" degree. (Higher sciences education than the average volunteer dog food reviewer.) No, he's not a veterinarian. Personally, I don't know many vets that freely discuss detailed data of many specific pet foods. Many vets sell "certain" foods... I assume GTers read data from many sources to form their own opinions. Nothing was mentioned in Pam's post about link #2. To clarify: That site is edited by a small handful of "volunteers with an interest in nutrition" from a Boxer dog forum. Since those dog loving volunteers do not work in the manufacturing plants of all dog food makers, seeing source ingredients, nor do they have access to protected recipes for each food, they too are relying on reading manufacturer food labels. They admit to making an "educated guess" in their reviews. Begin snippet from my original post: " 2. http://www.dogfoodan...g_food_reviews/ (I've been searching for government regulation with hard scientific nutritional data, but haven't unearthed such a thing (beyond FDA food labeling).)" End snippet. If anyone is interested, here is a desk reference book that looks interesting, but it's not a free Web site. It retails for $100.00. Applied Veterinary Clinical Nutrition, by Wiley-Blackwell. A link I didn't provide originally is www.Whole-Dog-Journal.com, which does name their specific food recommendations, but doesn't offer complete ingredient lists with guaranteed analysis for each food. There is a subscription charge. (I could be mistaken but I don't believe WDJ editor is an animal nutritional scientist either. I'm not sure with whom she collaborates.) I have found Dogfoodadvisor to be the BEST online source for information about the foods available on the market today. It is very accurate and unbiased. I have a background in nutrition and everything he says is spot on. If someone is feeding their dogs a brand of food that he deems as crap, I can see why they might not like the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Dogfoodadvisor and Whole Dog Journal are both mostly nonsense IMHO. Read the label, use your head, and feed what your dog does well on. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kydie Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I have been a Taste of the Wild user for years,,(I swore by it) until I found a live mouse in a bag,, so let me see grains verses mice,, not happy here,, I just moved to Bil-Jac,, I love the fact it is made in Ohio,, even the bag it comes in is USA made,, my dogs love it,, and I have had no issues Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kudzu Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 If you found a live mouse in the bag then either it was a result of poor food storage, likely at the store, or you got the freshest bag of dog food ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubcitypam Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) If you found a live mouse in the bag then either it was a result of poor food storage, likely at the store, or you got the freshest bag of dog food ever. :lol The most nutritious, commonly available grain is probably the much-maligned, totally unfashionable corn . . I still laugh at the high end food "comparison chart". When corn was in any competitors food it was labeled "cheap filler". However in their one food that same corn was labeled "for quick energy and a shiny coat". Edited March 16, 2012 by Hubcitypam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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