Katie Eating "funny"

[philospher77]

Hi! I need some advice on whether I am just imagining things, or if something has changed with my Katie. She has been "off" in her eating habits recently... not that she's not eating, but that she is eating oddly. She's always been a chow hound, but for this last week has been reluctant to eat, often leaving anything that has dropped on the ground. I thought at first it might be stress, or the new medicine she's on, or that she is tired of the food. However, she has had a relatively stress free week, I bought new food today with only a slight change in the behavior, and will try skipping the medicine tomorrow (at the vet's suggestion). It's really hard to pinpoint what seems off to me, but I did get some video and have included it to give people an idea of what I am talking about. I almost get the feeling that she _wants_ to eat, but for some reason finds it physically uncomfortable to do so.

 

Brief description of video: Katie starts out eating pretty much normal. At approximately 0:30, she does some odd chewing motions, sort of jaw clacking. At 40, you see the other thing I've noticed... she's dropping food more than normal, and a little hesitant to pick it back up. And then at 1:20, she drops her mouthful of food, puts her nose in my hand and leaves it there on top of the food, and I can feel her jaw quiver, but she doesn't eat. And after that, she will pointedly turn her head away when offered food. Now, in the past, she NEVER refused food. We'd stop when I ran out of the meal, but if I went and got more, she'd be ready, willing, and eager to eat. So this stopping while I still have food, that she had been eating with gusto just a few minutes before, makes me wonder if there is a physical problem. Thoughts? I do have a vet visit scheduled for Saturday, but wondered if anyone else had run across this, or if people think I'm just being paranoid.

 

Link to video http://youtu.be/qrOkqA-Cduw

 

Rebecca

[silverfish]

What happens when she's eating normally, out of a bowl? And is her bowl normally raised, or on the floor?

 

I don't know .. it's a little difficult to tell much from that video. All I can say is that if she were mine, I'd be thinking maybe a high neck issue or something in her GI tract midway between her mouth and her stomach.

 

High neck - She's most reluctant when it's necessary for her to reach forward for the food when your hand is at its highest. You'd been changing your hand position slightly all the way during the video, and she seemed fine when it was low, whether to her right or head on and however close it was. She could pick up off the floor OK. But when you pulled back a way and raised your hand, she baulked. Jaw quivering might indicated pain somewhere.

 

Oesophagus - the jaw quivering and sudden stop might also be because the food was getting packed somewhere and not reaching her stomach properly, or there was some problem entering the stomach.

 

It might also possibly be her jaw or teeth or the muscles around the jaw, because she might be a little tender when chewing on those back teeth, but 1) I might be imagining that, and I don't know how hard the food is, and 2) I assume the vet checked all those out first. BTW, did he check her ears, too?

 

Renie showed some unusual signs while eating a little while before it became obvious that she had 'neck' issues. Turned out she had a soft tissue (almost certainly benign) tumour somewhere around the base of neck which pressed on her oesophagus and sometimes caused her to gulp a little and eventually it got big enough to spread to her spine and infiltrated her spinal cord. It didn't put her off her food, but made her eat differently. Not differently enough to cause concern in itself, only in hindsight ... and she was at the vet several times and he didn't pick it up. *Sigh*

 

Having said all that, yes, you could still be imagining it. It's easy to look at a vid someone has posted asking you to look for a problem and find that problem, even if one doesn't really exist. At the end when Katie refused more food, and turned her head, she could just as easily simply not desire more food but became interested in the person making the video, or the camera, or something behind the camera. She appears to be looking into our eyes, so I'd guess she's looking at the camera. Dogs who turn their eyes away to refuse something usually have a more unfocussed look, in my experience. They don't actually look AT anything, it's more they are NOT looking at something.

 

I suppose that isn't a great deal of help. I'm sorry.

[tbhounds]

I didn't watch the video but, from your description it sounds like she may be nauseous. She may also have some underlying pain-- cervical, tooth, jaw.

Glad you made an appointment with your veterinarian.

[MP_the4pack]

One thing to look for is an abscessed tooth. Especially the tiny ones way in the back. Pearl had one and her eating became more and more difficult. She was originally misdiagnosed with myocitis but then a doctor found the abscessed tooth. No lump or any other indication other than extremely painful. It was the tiny one way in the back on the top.

[philospher77]

What happens when she's eating normally, out of a bowl? And is her bowl normally raised, or on the floor?

 

I suppose that isn't a great deal of help. I'm sorry.

 

It's helpful. I have hand fed her for most of the time that I have her, but for the last few months I have given her breakfast in a bowl. It's at chest height, and I had just raised it up about two inches from its previous height. She doesn't seem to have any issues with that. When it was a little lower, she did sometimes "inhale" her food to the point where she would gag/cough a mouthful back up, and then eat that off the floor. Haven't seen that since I brought the height up a little. She is being fed Taste of the Wild kibble, which is what she's been on for the last 6 months or so (since California Natural got bought be PG).

 

But the other issue there is that I wet her food in the bowl, so it's probably softer and more fragrant. The thing that I am really noticing is that her zest for food is missing. Katie is a dog who would come flying down the hall when she heard food hit her bowl, and would work like a dickens to get me to click and feed her. Now, I have to take the bowl of food into her room, show it to her, and then she may, sometimes after a bit of a wait, decide to come out and eat it. And that video is the most eager that she's been to hand feed in a while. For most of this week I have been forced to put it in her bowl to get her to eat.

 

This is how she has been about food for the last year:

I see a huge difference in how she is there, and how she is now, and I do not know why. I am skipping the medicine today, since it is known to be an appetite suppressor, but the vet said that that would normally show up in the first week, and resolve in the second, and we are in the third week of it, so it seems odd if that's the cause. The only other thing I can think of is that she has, in the past, gotten food stuck up above her teeth, which totally freaked me out the first time since it makes a hard lump under her eye. So it might be dental.

 

I am grateful for anything to discuss with the vet.

[greysmom]

What medication is she on? Have you tried giving her a pepcid before meals? Particularly if nauseousness is a side effect.

 

My first thought was some tooth or mouth issue. There have been instances of dogs having something stuck waaaaaaaaaay back in their mouth/throat - a stick or piece of bone/rawhide. Or an abcessed tooth.

 

My second thought is that she is experiencing a change in her behavior - a normal change that's part of her settling in process - and she's just doesn't think inhaling her food is necessary anymore. Or need that much food? Is she still hungry and just not eating, or is she really done when she stops?

 

Another thought is that my dogs all have changes in behavior (includng eating habits) with the changing seasons. Not sure why, but it happens every Spring and every Fall.

[philospher77]

What medication is she on? Have you tried giving her a pepcid before meals? Particularly if nauseousness is a side effect.

 

My first thought was some tooth or mouth issue. There have been instances of dogs having something stuck waaaaaaaaaay back in their mouth/throat - a stick or piece of bone/rawhide. Or an abcessed tooth.

 

My second thought is that she is experiencing a change in her behavior - a normal change that's part of her settling in process - and she's just doesn't think inhaling her food is necessary anymore. Or need that much food? Is she still hungry and just not eating, or is she really done when she stops?

 

Another thought is that my dogs all have changes in behavior (includng eating habits) with the changing seasons. Not sure why, but it happens every Spring and every Fall.

 

She is a spook, and I have been transitioning her from Elavil to Prozac, under the vet's guidance. She ate fine on Elavil, and during the washout time. Prozac is known suppressor, but she was also on Xanax to help with the anxiety during the switch, and I am currently weaning her off it. It is possible that the appetite-stimulant effect of the Xanax masked the effect of the Prozac, but the vet seems to think it shouldn't be apparent now, since that tends to be a temporary issue at the start of the drug. I was thinking that this might be stress related, since it started at Solvang, and she was very cautious about eating at her normal dinner place at home but ate well when the food was close to her safe place, but I would think that would have resolved by now.

 

It's a bit hard for me to tell whether she is still hungry or not. She had been a very food-motivated dog, and now seems much less interested in food. I did think at first that she might just be being a snot about the food, so I cut it back from 2.75 C a day to 2. She is not eating all of the 2 C, and will leave kibble in the bowl or on the floor, which she never did before. So she isn't acting like she is hungry, but she is getting less food than she has in the past, so it seems like she SHOULD be hungry. She is more likely to eat it out of the bowl than she is out of my hand, which is counter to her behavior in the past and points towards stress, but she will not even touch her treat-dispensing toys, which she used to be crazy about.

 

And at the same time, she is motivated (i.e., willing to seek out and work for) by high-value treats (cheese, liver paste, Wellness Wellbars, blueberries), but is not vacuuming up the Wellbar crumbs like she used to. And when I added in a new kibble from a sample I got, she started off eating eagerly, but then went to picking out the new kibble, and then just stopped eating like in the video. Which has me puzzled over whether it's like me eating ice cream but not salad when I have a toothache, because I like ice cream enough to put up with the discomfort, but salad isn't worth it? Or is it simply that she is being picky? So hard to tell when they can't talk!

[Guest Snazzy_Chloe]

The dog is eating just fine in my view. Looks like you have worked her out of her spookiness.

Dogs do tend to sometimes eat too much some times, spit it out and re-eat it.

So if I were you, I would step back a little and put the food in the food dish like one would do for any other dog.

I would stop the hand feeding which appears to be more for your benefit than for the dog which appears to be a happy, healthy, and alert pup. Possibly the meds have suppressed her appetite somewhat but you seem to me to be overly concerned with this "problem".

But what do I know, I'm just a guy who is not there living everyday with your hound, I just have your couple of videos to look at.

[Guest sheila]

I'm no expert on anything but this is my take on it. Three things that stand out are that she used to come flying when the food hit her bowl, and that she is a spook and the hand fed food is dry. Could it be that she feels too much pressure at meal time with you being in her space, asking her to touch your hand etc? Could it be that the dry food irritates her in some way?

If it were me I would put her food down in the raised feeder, toss a splash of water (just a splash not a soak) on it and leave her alone to eat it in peace. I would give her 15 minutes to eat it and if it was left untouched/unfinished I would pick it up and not offer food again until the next meal time. This kind of thing is what worked when I had food shy hounds. Most of them got with the program rightawayquick. I had one that would not/could not eat unless she was left alone in the room. If I walked in on her while she was eating, she would walk out and stand at the door and give me the stink-eye until I left the room.

[BatterseaBrindl]

The dog is eating just fine in my view. Looks like you have worked her out of her spookiness.

Dogs do tend to sometimes eat too much some times, spit it out and re-eat it.

So if I were you, I would step back a little and put the food in the food dish like one would do for any other dog.

I would stop the hand feeding which appears to be more for your benefit than for the dog which appears to be a happy, healthy, and alert pup. Possibly the meds have suppressed her appetite somewhat but you seem to me to be overly concerned with this "problem".

But what do I know, I'm just a guy who is not there living everyday with your hound, I just have your couple of videos to look at.

 

Agreed!

Yes...she oaccsionally looks away - at the camera!! - but she is reaching for and eating the kibbles that have dropped on the floor.

 

So...Katie has always been hand-fed?

She's never eaten on her own, out of a bowl?

 

Perhaps it's time to stop making her work for every single mouthful and just let her enjoy her meals on her own time.

[philospher77]

To those who say that she should be "able to enjoy meals like a regular dog"... she does get bowl fed in the morning. But even that she is not eating with gusto like she used to.

 

As to the "maybe she doesn't want to have to work for her food"... Katie has always LOVED being handfed. It's our bonding time. She's clicker-trained, so it's when I teach her new tricks, we play hide and seek, go chasing after toys, identify the various furniture, etc. It's play time, with food included. She'll be in there, eager and waiting to see what I want her to do, and to try and get me to reward her for offering up behaviors that she knows. The hardest thing for me has been trying to keep up with her desire to learn new things! So you have to realize, this change is the equivalent of a dog that comes running up when they hear a leash because they LOVE walks suddenly deciding not to get off the bed when they hear the leash. I'm pretty sure that you would be trying to figure out what has changed if that were the situation. The complication with this is that she IS eating, but that could be because she has to eat to stay alive, not because she wants to.

 

But, if the vet rules out any physical issues, then I will try the tough love approach, and see if that gets her back into eating well.

[greysmom]

I completely understand about spooks and eating issues. Yes, it could be the prozac making her not want to eat.

 

However, I would take your example - a dog who lovs walks running when the leash is picked up suddenly not coming anymore - and say that this does indeed happen. A dog, for whatever reason, will decide that s/he doesn't want to go on walks anymore. Age, weather, comfort, laziness - there are lots of non-medical reasons why this happens, all of which are perfectly normal and not a cause for over concern in the long run.

 

I would also suggest that she might just be getting too much to eat in the first place. My dogs get about 1 cup of kibble (Nutra Nuggets) plus a bit of canned, twice a day, and have no problems holding their weight at an optimum level. They do get quite few treats throughout the day, and they are probably not as active as Katie. But there you go. She might just be getting full, and now that she's not so frantic to eateateat, she stops. It's a big change in her behavior, but that is what you have her on medication for.

 

I have never had success with tough food love with my spook. If Cash doesn't want to eat, Cash won't eat. Period. No matter how hungry she gets. Until and unless she feels "safe" to do so. If she's anxious, Cash will actually spit food out if you place it in her mouth - even something high value like cooked chicken. She's gone as long as several days and begun to lose weight, and I have to give in to her special requirements to get her to eat at all. I am very glad to say that this hasn't happened in many months now, particulary since we've sorted out her medication and have her on Paxil. It's been a miracle for her, so I know how wonderful it is to see your spook doing well.

 

Good luck.

[philospher77]

I do think that the Prozac is contributing. I didn't give her her pill this morning, and she was more interested in food, and did actually eat everything. I do get a bit concerned about the amount that she has been eating, because she has maintained pretty well with around 2.75 cups of food (fluctuates a few pounds up and down depending on activity level, but pretty consistent), and now she's only eating around 2 C. But the other thing I noticed this evening, that does make me think that there is a potential physical issue, is that tonight, after she stopped eating, she did this peculiar thing where she stuck her neck out straight and made this sort of huffing sound. It reminded me somewhat of how a donkey looks when they bray, with some very distinct jerking of her adams apple. After that, she finished off the kibble that she had dropped. Which makes me think that there may be something wrong in her neck or throat. If it turns out that there is nothing physical, well, then I can adapt to how she is. Right now it's the "it could be so many things, or nothing at all" that has me stressing. That and the fact that the most likely thing I think of when she starts acting like this is stress, but if that was the cause here, I would expect her behavior going outside (the largest source of stress for her) would be much less confident than it is now. But all of her other behaviors are improving as would be expected with the new drug.

 

But, as has been pointed out, this could be nothing. And I do have the vet appointment, and she IS eating, so I might as well not stress over these next few days!

[seeh2o]

No advice or experience, but I wanted to tell you how gorgeous she is, she is really beautiful and graceful. I hope you get to the bottom of this and it's as simple as the medication.

[philospher77]

Update on the situation: She got a clean bill of health at the vet this morning, so that's ok. I let her go Thursday without the Prozac, and she was a bit "brighter" at dinner, and pretty much back to normal the next day at breakfast (after which I put her back on her daily dose), so I think I may be dealing with the double whammy of "lack of appetite" and "lethargic/depressed", the two most common side effects of the Prozac. Or possibly just observer bias, since she has seemed to be happier and eating better even after going back on the drug, so it might be just me. I will now go discuss whether we need to tweak her dosage, or just keep with how we are now and see how things go. Last night she was playing with her favorite treat-dispensing toy, even, so she is well on her way to being back to normal.

[silverfish]

Good news! Thanks for letting us know!

 

I don't know how quickly Prozac clears the system, or how long it takes for it to have an effect. You may still see her symptoms resurface, or she may just continue going back to the old Katie. But don't take the depression lightly because I do know that can be a real problem from when MIL was on it and she became suicidal.

 

Remember that dogs are hard-wired to behave 'normally' and they hide remarkable amounts of pain before they'll let you know, and it may be true of abnormal behaviours like depression too. If it becomes a real problem for her you may need to switch drugs.

 

Meanwhile, three cheers for Katie eating again!

[Guest Mom2Comet]

I am having a similiar issue with my grey. Did you ever find anything out about her eating besides the medication?