Doing Research

[Sighthounds4me]

I have been trying to research grain-free kibbles. However, so far, the best info I can find is regarding certain foods. This is not what I want.

 

What I am looking for is information explaining why grain-free is better. I am looking to add a giant-breed sighthound puppy. Obviously, we will talk to the breeder to get their take on it too. But I'd love to see links to articles from reputable sources, explaining pros and cons.

 

From what I have found at this time, it seems like hype. Unless a dog has an allergy to a grain, to go grain-free seems like jumping on a bandwagon of popularity. I'm not sure I need to do it.

 

What are everyone's thoughts?

 

TIA!

[MauCarden]

On the practical front I like having only slightly smelly poop, and the poop amounts being very small in comparison.

[Sighthounds4me]

Oh, and that's another thing...so many sites tout that kind of thing, but it seems like a lot of money to spend for nothing more than convenience.

 

Unless there is a reason that benefits my dogs, I can't see a good reason to spend more money.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Sighthounds4me

[Remolacha]

I prefer grain free for my cats and dogs just because grains aren't a natural part of their diet, and I don't htink they get much, if any, nutritional benefit from them. I did all my research 6-7 yrs ago, so I don't have links to articles anymore. As far as I can tell, unless there is an allergy, grains won't hurt them, it just acts as a filler (hence the large poops).

[Batmom]

Over the years I've fed pretty much everything there is to feed. Good, bad, ugly, indifferent, raw, cooked, with grains, without grains, with carbs, without carbs ..... Can't see any particular reason to do it. IIRC in growth and development you really want some carbs but I'm too burnt out on research projects to confirm that tonight.

[GeorgeofNE]

On the practical front I like having only slightly smelly poop, and the poop amounts being very small in comparison.

 

Interesting Maureen!

 

George's poops are substantially BIGGER on grain free kibble than on his normal Solid Gold beef.

[OwnedBySummer]

My personal theory is... I don't want to fill her up with grains. But that being said, it truly depends (for me) on how much grain is in the particular food. I don't think a grain ingredient in 4th position (for instance) is at all harmful but a food which lists "chicken" as the first ingredient (thus it's whole chicken, complete with water) followed by 3 grains is not one that I'd choose. I think you should feed what you want to feed, what you are comfortable with, what your dog likes and what your dog does well on.

 

An interesting observation is that Summer absolutely refuses to eat Blue Buffalo and will only eat Taste Of The Wild if it has a lot of additives. We've tried many others, including Acana. Ultimately, I finally found one that she loves -- Nutro Natural Choice Grain-Free Turkey & Potato. The grain-free thing was totally unintentional but since it's the one she likes and will do the happy dance for, then that is the one she gets. I feel it has a bit too much potato but since she gets this for breakfast only and gets canned meat for dinner, I am comfortable with it. And I'd personally rather have potato than grains -- a starving dog in the wild would eat a potato but they are unlikely to pull down oats and eat them, .

Edited May 3, 2011 by OwnedBySummer

[DesiRayMom]

Good topic!!!! When I got DesiRay last spring, he had toenail problems. His foster mom had taken him to OSU to see if

it was SLO....No, they said, those were allergy feet. So, when he came to me, he was on Kangaroo & oat. Feet really never

got any better, so in the fall, I switched him to novel protein & grain-free....see how that would do.

 

Feet got better; not sure if it was the food, or just that I got really serious about treating his feet EVERY NIGHT.

 

Now it's spring.,....his poop has slowly gotten softer & softer until I've had to start taking a paper plate with us on

walkabout because it is nearly impossible to pick up. And the poop on grain free has never been less.....this boy

can poop a serious plateful!

 

So.....I'm ready to switch again. Obviously it's not a grain allergy that affects his feet.

This time I'm going to try just a decent OTC Eukanuba & see what happensl.

[MaryJane]

"Grain free" seems to be the current trend IMHO. I've been feeding my dogs cooked oatmeal every morning for years and they seem none the worse for it. Since they get a good amount of fiber, the poops are pretty easy to pick up but not "rock hard".

 

Note, in the wild a dog would not be able to feast on grains but ... they do eat animals that will have stomach contents full of digested nuts, berries, grains, grasses and so on.

[MauCarden]

On the practical front I like having only slightly smelly poop, and the poop amounts being very small in comparison.

 

Interesting Maureen!

 

George's poops are substantially BIGGER on grain free kibble than on his normal Solid Gold beef.

But George is special. You know he marches to a different drummer and won't have the same reactions as da udder dogs out thar.

[MauCarden]

Oh, and that's another thing...so many sites tout that kind of thing, but it seems like a lot of money to spend for nothing more than convenience.

 

Unless there is a reason that benefits my dogs, I can't see a good reason to spend more money.

 

I'm not quite sure how the money thing stacks up. It seem that I feed a lot less of the grain free than I did of food with grain. (always freaks out my dogsitters ) I recently switched from EVO to Taste of the Wild because the feed store where I had been buying went out of business and the only other place around carrying EVO is about $18.00 higher a bag.

 

As many people have said, feed what suits you and your pup.

 

The vet who has a regular column in the Washington Post is always advocating grain free for both dogs and cats. Can't remember his name at the moment.

[Guest mcsheltie]

Actually dogs don't eat the stomach contents in the wild. It is all mixed up with stomach acid and not palatable. They shake out the guts and then eat them.

 

When I fed kibble I fed grain free because the dogs had less gas. But what works for some dogs doesn't work at all for others. But with that said, dogs are not only able to digest carbs, but they can also derive nutritional benefit from them. I choose not to feed them because my dogs look their best on a raw carb free diet. Want to talk poop... ...turds not only bounce, but are tiny.

 

Poop size isn't automatically smaller on grain-free. Poop size is determined by the digestibility of the ingredients. There are many reasons behind the "quality" of poop. High protein is normally a factor. A healthy dog easily digests protein. People think the high end foods are too rich because of the protein content. But one of the most common causes, that people are unaware of, is the iron content. Other common factors in quality are fat content and fiber.

 

When I feed puppies I do include grain after they are four weeks old and stop when they reach full height.

Edited May 4, 2011 by mcsheltie

[Remolacha]

as for the poop thing it depends on what carb the mfg uses to replace the grain(s). Something has to hold the bits of kibble together, so instead of grain, they use potato, sweet potato, peas, tapioca, and so on. So, it would depend on how your dog reacted to whatever was used instead of grain. As far as I know, none of my animals has a grain allergy, and I do sometimes give the girls kibble to save time and money. They get TOTW Pacific. It really depends on each individual animal. I had a cat that lived to be almost 20, very healthy, who ate Purina Cat Chow and Friskies MIxed Grill his whole life

[Guest cruzNhounds]

We have changed from NutriSource large breed Chicken & Rice to the large breed grain free chicken. The girls loved nutrisource before the switch but love it even better after. Since the change they have very little to no gas, stools are less, skin and coat are more oily less flaky.

 

ETA...and I have happy eaters

Edited May 4, 2011 by cruzNhounds

[Guest kydie]

I went grain free due to a gastro issue with my GSP,, and thought "I'm not buying multiple different kibble for multiple different dogs" so they all were put on a grain free diet,, For me it is most important I feed, a food that meat is the first ingrediant,, made in the USA,, no matter what the brand is

[krissn333]

My dogs eat grain free - TOTW Pacific Stream. I've had them on many different foods over the years - ProPlan, Blue Buffalo, Avoderm, Solid Gold. Pinky has lupus and has thrived on a grain free diet - she doesn't have the itchy skin anymore and she doesn't stink (which was a result of the itchy skin). Skimmie doesn't have any diagnosed health issues but had barely any hair when I got him. I also couldn't feed him anything to keep weight on him and he looked like he was starving. The TOTW has remedied that issue for us - he now has hair and is finally holding weight!

 

As far as the other pups, they have done much better on a grain free food than anything else that I've tried. Their coats are soft and shiny, Fritz is keeping weight (he was another that kept going skinny on me), their poop is good (small amount, well formed)...for us, grain free works.

 

The protein source in TOTW Pacific Stream is also what we need - fish. Ace and Fritz can't have lamb (don't know about Pinky or the littles because I just won't have it in my house - it causes them to have severe diarrhea within 10 minutes of ingesting anything with lamb), Fritz doesn't do well with chicken or turkey, Skimmie didn't do well with chicken and actually seemed to have a bit of a chicken allergy...and on and on it goes. So it's also just easier for me to feed ONE food that works for everyone.

 

My mom started out with her two feeding TOTW too. They were eating it for a while and were having good poop, but, as of late, Goody has not been interested in eating it without a bunch of add-ins, and Sunny has had some poop issues with it. My mom switched them to Diamond Naturals Beef and they are doing great. Both of them eat right away and their poop is so much better. It's not grain free, but it is corn and soy free...I believe there is barley in it. Just goes to show you what works for some may not work for all (in my case I'm glad that one food works for all 6 dogs though!).

[TwiggysMom]

My thoughts run with the OP's.

 

I frequently hear the argument that grains aren't a natural part of a dog's diet - agreed! However, I simply can't see how white potatoes or sweet potatoes are any better aligned with a dog's natural diet. They're still carbs, no better or worse as far as I can tell. (Except, of course, where a particular dog can eat potatoes but not barley or some such thing).

 

If we were talking carb-free (as in raw), then I agree that would be a much more natural diet, but as long as it's a kibble, I don't worry about rice versus potato.

[Guest barkdogs]

Actually dogs don't eat the stomach contents in the wild. It is all mixed up with stomach acid and not palatable. They shake out the guts and then eat them.

 

When I fed kibble I fed grain free because the dogs had less gas. But what works for some dogs doesn't work at all for others. But with that said, dogs are not only able to digest carbs, but they can also derive nutritional benefit from them. I choose not to feed them because my dogs look their best on a raw carb free diet. Want to talk poop... ...turds not only bounce, but are tiny.

 

Poop size isn't automatically smaller on grain-free. Poop size is determined by the digestibility of the ingredients. There are many reasons behind the "quality" of poop. High protein is normally a factor. A healthy dog easily digests protein. People think the high end foods are too rich because of the protein content. But one of the most common causes, that people are unaware of, is the iron content. Other common factors in quality are fat content and fiber.

 

When I feed puppies I do include grain after they are four weeks old and stop when they reach full height.

 

Interesting about the iron content. Origen gives my guys bad runs.....

[Guest barkdogs]

Well, dogs are classed in with many carnivores--meat of some kind is a major part of their diet. That being said, they have been domesticated for tens of thousands of years, so they have adapted (morphologically and physiologically) as a result of that relationship. Dogs are, for sure, opportunistic omnivores. I had a friend with a husky that would pick wineberries off the bush and eat them (the husky, I mean) My border Collie Bob LOVES raw carrots, sweet potatoes, bananas, green beans, blueberries, clementines, raw almonds. . . about the only thing he has turned down so far is salad greens (perhaps he would like them with some dressing) and dogs have been known to survive and even thrive on some odd combinations of food. Working in an anatomy lab, I have seen some pretty strange stuff in stomachs--I found a nearly intact dragonfly in the stomach of a cat, and an ear tag from a goat or cow in a dog stomach.

 

I do think that veggies have a role, given that dogs are opportunistic and that they show obvious omnivorous tendencies (even if they want meat for most of the diet) There are studies that show that antioxidants do help with brain health, and I have known seizure dogs who have had reduced seizure AND a reduced need for meds when being fed a diet rich in antioxidants. I put the veggies in a blender so that they are easier to digest. My aussie has had occasional, idiopathic seizures and I do think the veggies in his diet help. He has numerous oddball neurologic issues so I have been doing the veggies for a long time.

 

I agree about sorting the through the trends and hype. Unfortunately, it seems that the real studies are funded by dog food companies (large ones like Hills--I work at a veterinary school and they give the students food, backpacks, and other "gifts" too numerous to mention here) so the results tend to be slanted towards the promotion of commercially prepared diets.

 

I do some home made and some kibble, also a little raw, although one should be watchful with raw if you have an immune compromised dog (my poor Jules got campylobactor from somewhere, possibly from the chicken necks she gets periodically) because it seem to me that eating only processed food it not so good for us, and therefore not so good for our animals. Also I like to give them variety. They do get some soft stools now and then (not to be confused with diarrhea) but nothing too terrible. I try to provide fiber through veggies as opposed to rice as I figure they get more vitamins that way.

 

It's an ongoing learning experience, for sure. I think whatever one does, just be sure it agrees with your dogs. Mine are shiny and happy, and the two young boys (2 and 3 years old--never raced or trained, one was an oops and the other came to me at 7 months with a severe valgus deformity from a badly healed fracture) are slowly filling out. They didn't come with that wonderful layer of muscle that the racers come with, but they are slowly building it up and as they mature, they are finally filling out more. My broodie girl Anna "Momma" Lucia came skinny, tick ridden and missing half her hair but now is shiny and curvy.

 

Part of cooking for them also gives me pleasure. I am 50 and never had kids, but now I see why some mothers enjoy cooking for their families. It really does make me happy when they get the still warm food and they happily suck it down (less so when they deem the latest creation to not be so interesting, although dear old Lucia and Bob the Border Collie like everything) so go figure.

 

I would love to see a truly objective study done with raw feeding, grain free vs. grain, home cooked etc. It really is an area where I don't believe enough research has been done. Like I say, I think the bottom line is, are your dogs healthy?" It seems that despite the debates here regarding between raw vs kibble, grain free, cheap vs expensive, etc., everyone has stories about how well--or how poorly--their dogs have done on certain diets.

[Guest manawatugal]

I agree with the last OP. I am starting out with my greyhound of 10 weeks on new foods. He was kibble fed before and was happy to eat and looked ok. When we got him I started him on two meals a day, one kibble and one raw a pre-prepared one made here with human grade meat, veges, organ meat, bone, fruit etc - very pricey and mushy along with a bone daily.

Have ditched the kibble, much smaller poos and firmer now he's on a totally raw diet. BUT my inlaws 10 year old border collie eats supermarket dogroll which is made up of meats, grain, veges with a few dog biscuits thrown in and he is healthy and has a shiny coat and has never had any serious health issues and is still incredibly bouncy. So maybe for some dogs variety is the key. I am trying to feed my grey with a variety of meats/organ/tripe and bone and eggs and his coat has improved and he's put on weight. I don't want to have to give him supplements even though I know many people do. I am still doing lots of reading and researching and still a bit confused. I would feed my boy dogroll sometimes if there was an easily obtainable really good quality one out there as an occasional meal. I don't want to get absolutely paranoid about everything I am feeding him which I feel I am doing a bit at times and for when other people look after him, it has to be straightforward.

I suppose most caring dog owners worry about this at some stage or other.

I have a friend with a greyhound she has had a year and prepares her food which is mostly cooked meats and rice, and I think kibble also, she won't eat raw and she has the most beautiful sleek coat you have seen and is gorgeous. I would love Stanley's coat to be like hers (he is black).

Edited May 8, 2011 by manawatugal