Fenway's Mystery Pee Problems - Ultrasound Results: Kidney Damage

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

I would think the vet would have caught something on the UA and blood work if it was diabetes. Has he had any UAs in the past and what were the results? I would also ask your bf if there was the possibility Fenny ate something he shouldn't have while you were away. Just a thought.

[gracegirl]

I would think the vet would have caught something on the UA and blood work if it was diabetes. Has he had any UAs in the past and what were the results? I would also ask your bf if there was the possibility Fenny ate something he shouldn't have while you were away. Just a thought.

 

Urine and blood looked fine as far as diabetes is concerned. Will ask Ryan about anything he may have eaten. One of the three dogs ate (or shared) an avacado about a month ago, no one had loose stool so I still don't know who it was.

 

Also, I checked past UA and all was normal on those. Only thing that has changed between then and now is the specific gravity of urine.

Edited March 4, 2011 by gracegirl

[GeorgeofNE]

George's ultrasound was $350 I believe. That included a half day of "hospitalization" since they use a travelling ultrasound tech., and they refused to give me a time to bring him in. The insisted I leave him for the day--and then had the audacity to charge me for "hospitalization" which meant he was in a kennel run waiting for his turn.

 

On the plus side, the next time a vet badgers me about "has he had an ultrasound" I get to say yes!

 

Prices here seem high compared to other parts of the country, so it might be less (or more, I suppose) where you are!

[gracegirl]

Ultrasound is scheduled for Wednesday morning at 9am ($289). They want me to arrive 15 minutes early to shave him. He's a greyhound. Not sure how much they can get off that little hairless monkey!

 

Susan, I'm using a traveling ultrasound tech too. They offered to let me leave Fen there in a run...but I told them they'd prolly not let us back. Fen would HOWL like a banshee if he was in a cage with no one there to enterain him. Plus, if it's that expensive I want to see it myself! For me it was an option and not mandated. That's lame they charged you for it!

[gracegirl]

Just got another call from the vet...they kept the culture going/growing over the weekend and still....nothing. Bummer. I really was hoping for bacteria.

 

We are keeping the ultrasound appt for Wednesday. At that time, if nothing shows on the ultrasound, I'll further my research (and ask the ver to do the same) on diabetes insipidus.

 

Please keep us in your thoughts over the next few days. I've been having some rather umpleasant dreams regardign Fenway. I'm really nervous for the appt on Wednesday.

[Guest davidsl88]

As a definite non-expert and after having read the previous posts full of very good information, I hesitate to add to the mix (or confusion), but I did just go through my own 'mystery pee' problem last week (I posted this morning about Colby's mis-adventure). When I called the vet for an appt. to treat what to me was likely a UTI (and the culture confirmed it), we also discovered (via simple x-ray and manipulation of the bladder) that Colby actually had stones (a lot!!)in his bladder. Surgery was scheduled and he's home and fine now! I don't remember if you mentioned that your vet checked Fenway's bladder, but do wonder if this could be the 'simpler' solution to the mystery. Good luck to you.

[gracegirl]

As a definite non-expert and after having read the previous posts full of very good information, I hesitate to add to the mix (or confusion), but I did just go through my own 'mystery pee' problem last week (I posted this morning about Colby's mis-adventure). When I called the vet for an appt. to treat what to me was likely a UTI (and the culture confirmed it), we also discovered (via simple x-ray and manipulation of the bladder) that Colby actually had stones (a lot!!)in his bladder. Surgery was scheduled and he's home and fine now! I don't remember if you mentioned that your vet checked Fenway's bladder, but do wonder if this could be the 'simpler' solution to the mystery. Good luck to you.

Thanks for the info! That's one thing that the ultrasound will show, from my understanding of what the tech will be looking for on Wednesday. Kidney stones, bladder stones, tumors, growths, abnormalities, and the dreaded c-word.

 

Thanks for the info...now that we've ruled out bacteria, I'm very hopeful for stones! Never thought I'd be saying that. My Nordstrom's credit card is racking up a lot of points this month.

[Mystella]

Sending hugs Lauren to all of you!!

[4My2Greys]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

 

[Guest davidsl88]

Please dont disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. Its something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

Edited March 7, 2011 by davidsl88

[Guest mcsheltie]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

But something is causing the stones. Until you figure that out the possibility of their return is high. Being caused by a food allergy is one of the easier fixes.

[4My2Greys]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

 

Let me see if I understand correctly. You think it preferable for something to require surgical intervention along with all its dangers and risks, to include, but not limited to, anesthesia, post-operative pain and peritonitis to a simple diet change. Which, oh by the way, you will need to make unless you want your dog to keep getting stones. But then again diet only helps reduce the formation of struvite stones. If they are oxalate stones surgery will be required for removal.

I think I'll stick with using a little investigative skills and figure out an allergy over putting my dog through the risks of surgery.

[gracegirl]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

 

Let me see if I understand correctly. You think it preferable for something to require surgical intervention along with all its dangers and risks, to include, but not limited to, anesthesia, post-operative pain and peritonitis to a simple diet change. Which, oh by the way, you will need to make unless you want your dog to keep getting stones. But then again diet only helps reduce the formation of struvite stones. If they are oxalate stones surgery will be required for removal.

I think I'll stick with using a little investigative skills and figure out an allergy over putting my dog through the risks of surgery.

Please, no need to be snarky when we don't even have a faint hint of a diagnosis yet!

[GeorgeofNE]

Lauren, try not to be nervous!

 

I totally get what you meant about the stones, FYI.

 

My Kramer suffered with horrific allergies--not food related. Nothing worked except steroids, and they're certainly not without their own risks. It was a nightmare. Obviously you don't want Fenway to need surgery, but I was really sort of disappointed when I got the call that George's ultrasound was "totally normal."

 

It was a good news/bad news report for me. Good in that he hasn't got cancer, etc., but bad in that we were no closer to an answer.

 

FYI, after last week's disappointing accident after five weeks dry, there has not been a repeat! This is typical of the pattern of mycoplasma die off cycle...lending a TINY bit more support to my theory (that not totally lacks support from anyone but me!).

 

We are soldiering on with our idea.

 

FYI, I find that Serenity "Ultra" pads (stick on type) hold a LOT of pee. For George. No personal experience, yet. But hey, I'm 50 in Sept. so...

Edited March 8, 2011 by GeorgeofNE

[Guest davidsl88]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

 

Let me see if I understand correctly. You think it preferable for something to require surgical intervention along with all its dangers and risks, to include, but not limited to, anesthesia, post-operative pain and peritonitis to a simple diet change. Which, oh by the way, you will need to make unless you want your dog to keep getting stones. But then again diet only helps reduce the formation of struvite stones. If they are oxalate stones surgery will be required for removal.

I think I'll stick with using a little investigative skills and figure out an allergy over putting my dog through the risks of surgery.

Please, no need to be snarky when we don't even have a faint hint of a diagnosis yet!

 

As an expert NON-expert, I only THINK I know this: food/diet can cause stones - all types. I have never heard, read, presumed or assumed food ALLERGY causes stones. But I don't know. I assume you know more than I, my own experience was very difficult but limited (mine as well as a very elderly dog that suddenly developed an allergy to the entire universe. We could not make him comfortable and then he died before we could find out to WHAT he was allergic).

 

As I mentioned previously (but was it this thread or another?), [i agree] calcium stones are tougher to manipulate via diet and do need surgical intervention more often than not. Once formed, struvite can be treated with diet (dissolved). Prevention can be achieved via diet, but can be erratic. Do they develop because of allergy? Or because of the way the body processes urine? And is that a function of biology or allergy? I don't know. (I give myself a headache sometimes!! You too??!! LOL!!) I still agree with all that allergy is something that shouldn’t be overlooked.

 

I'm sorry I seemed cavalier or wasn't clearer. I would prefer to prevent and I surely would rather he not have developed the stones, but there they were. Whichever we’re dealing with, we will begin to manage and I believe/hope prevent now. gracegirl, I'm certainly hoping for the best outcome for your doggie, and I don't want you to feel I'm minimizing her illness or possible treatment. I do not advocate surgery but may I please iterate - without offense - that based only on Colby’s experience and great outcome - he eats well, alerts me to and goes potty easily and regularly, wiggles when he walks and giggles when he talks - I would rather deal with the one-time, now they’re gone stones, than a (sometimes) lifetime struggle with shifting or (sometimes) impossible to discover allergies.

 

**GeorgeofNE, I know what you mean! :>)

Edited March 8, 2011 by davidsl88

[4My2Greys]

Please don’t disregard the very real possibility that it could be food allergy related as I posted and several others (mcsheltie, krissn333 & batmom) have supported with their own experiences. It’s something that is easily ruled out with an elimination diet. Personally I would be hoping for something like this vs. diabetes or bladder stones.

 

While I agree that allergies could be the culprit and investigated however possible, based on my own personal experiences with both (and I'm not being fresh here or discounting your experience and good advice) I would rather deal with the stones (more straightforward... look! there they are - wham, bam, they're out!) than the vagaries of allergies (often difficult and time-consuming to discover, keep track of and manage). They come. They go. This medication works, this one doesn't... it's a struggle (as it was for you - me too!). I'm kinda rooting for the stones, too... LOL!

 

Let me see if I understand correctly. You think it preferable for something to require surgical intervention along with all its dangers and risks, to include, but not limited to, anesthesia, post-operative pain and peritonitis to a simple diet change. Which, oh by the way, you will need to make unless you want your dog to keep getting stones. But then again diet only helps reduce the formation of struvite stones. If they are oxalate stones surgery will be required for removal.

I think I'll stick with using a little investigative skills and figure out an allergy over putting my dog through the risks of surgery.

Please, no need to be snarky when we don't even have a faint hint of a diagnosis yet!

 

As an expert NON-expert, I only THINK I know this: food/diet can cause stones - all types. I have never heard, read, presumed or assumed food ALLERGY causes stones. But I don't know. I assume you know more than I, my own experience was very difficult but limited (mine as well as a very elderly dog that suddenly developed an allergy to the entire universe. We could not make him comfortable and then he died before we could find out to WHAT he was allergic).

 

As I mentioned previously (but was it this thread or another?), [i agree] calcium stones are tougher to manipulate via diet and do need surgical intervention more often than not. Once formed, struvite can be treated with diet (dissolved). Prevention can be achieved via diet, but can be erratic. Do they develop because of allergy? Or because of the way the body processes urine? And is that a function of biology or allergy? I don't know. (I give myself a headache sometimes!! You too??!! LOL!!) I still agree with all that allergy is something that shouldn’t be overlooked.

 

I'm sorry I seemed cavalier or wasn't clearer. I would prefer to prevent and I surely would rather he not have developed the stones, but there they were. Whichever we’re dealing with, we will begin to manage and I believe/hope prevent now. gracegirl, I'm certainly hoping for the best outcome for your doggie, and I don't want you to feel I'm minimizing her illness or possible treatment. I do not advocate surgery but may I please iterate - without offense - that based only on Colby’s experience and great outcome - he eats well, alerts me to and goes potty easily and regularly, wiggles when he walks and giggles when he talks - I would rather deal with the one-time, now they’re gone stones, than a (sometimes) lifetime struggle with shifting or (sometimes) impossible to discover allergies.

 

**GeorgeofNE, I know what you mean! :>)

 

Just want to clarify a few things that seem to have gotten muddled. First, I never said food allergies cause stones. I said food allergies can be a cause of incontinence and that diet can affect some stones and not others. That is two very different things. Aside from surgery not being necessary, which is a major plus, with a food allergy you just stop feeding the offending item. You can keep feeding everything else for an optimally healthy diet. With stones though you are forced to feed a diet that's sole function is to minimize the production of stones. It is so nutritionally incomplete that you can only feed it for a certain amount of time.

Another thing that needs to be clarified is that I am talking food and not environmental allergies. Steroid are not needed for food allergies. You just identify the offending food and stop feeding it and the problem goes away. It is also very easy to diagnose incontinence being caused by food allergies by doing a real elimination diet. In fact, if it was the cause and an elimination diet had been started when I first mentioned it the problem would be gone by now.

[carronstar]

Checking in on Fenway today. Any news?

[Mystella]

[gracegirl]

Ultrasound revealed kidney damage. Blood pressure, BUN, creatinin (sp?), etc all are considered normal and within range. So now I research kidney diets. And check urine/blood every 6 months to monitor any changes. Oh, and learn to live with pee accidents.

[carronstar]

Well, at least you know what to research and how to attack it. Pee accidents are no fun but you can learn to live with them. Hugs to Fenway for being such a trouper through all of this. You, too!

Edited March 9, 2011 by carronstar

[NeylasMom]

See if you can find my old threads on incontinence from after Neyla had her pamidronate treatment. Try searching H&M for incontinence or diaper. There is a doggie diaper sort of thing that Fenny would wear that would keep your house, furniture, etc. dry but still be comfortable for him. My oncologist swore by it as she used it for her older incontinent dog. It wasn't cheap, but sounded well worth it.

 

Another option might be an indoor pee area you could train him to go on. You could use disposable or washable pee pads, or there are systems you can buy online (also not cheap) that have a removable tray you can easily clean with a top that's either real or artificial grass to make teaching them to use it easier. It's where I got my idea to build the little grass thing on my deck. There's links to those in my old threads as well.

 

Basically, there are ways to manage the pee accidents to make life easier for you.

[Guest LindsaySF]

A specific gravity of 1.014 and 1.015 is on the low-end of normal, but not dilute enough to indicate Diabetes Insipidus usually. I think for DI it needs to be 1.005 or less. But if the vet begins to suspect DI, I might be able to offer some advice. My dog Cody has DI and is on ADH pills (desmopressin).

 

Does Fenway have incontinence? Could one of the anti-incontinence drugs (DES, Proin) help with the accidents?

 

We go through a lot of pee pads here. Mostly for Sophie, but for Cody as well. PetEdge.com seems to have the best price I've found (I like the XL ones).

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[4My2Greys]

Ultrasound revealed kidney damage. Blood pressure, BUN, creatinin (sp?), etc all are considered normal and within range. So now I research kidney diets. And check urine/blood every 6 months to monitor any changes. Oh, and learn to live with pee accidents.

 

I’m going to make this my last post concerning this and I am doing so only with the intent of trying to help and because I feel it is very important. If you read my original post with the information about Nadir’s lab work you will notice that he had a microalbuminuria of 4.6, the preferred is less than 2.5. This here is evidence in itself of kidney damage. I’m not saying you shouldn’t research kidney diets, but at least consider the possibility that a food allergy and the strain it is pointing on his bladder could be causing the damage and if a change is not made will only get worse. Once I found the offending food that was causing Nadir’s problem the incontinence or pee accidents went away. So it is very possible that you do NOT have to live with pee accidents.

 

 

[Remolacha]

I am sorry about the kidney damage, but at least you have some answers.

[gracegirl]

Well, at least you know what to research and how to attack it. Pee accidents are no fun but you can learn to live with them. Hugs to Fenway for being such a trouper through all of this. You, too!

 

Thanks Carron! There are many worse things that pee on the hardwood floors. I'll explore other options too, if the diet change doesn't help clear those up. He was so good for the radiologist today. He lay down on the floor and didn't move a muscle the whole time she was doing the u/s. I didn't go back with him because he was being so good without me...I just let them proceed without my interruption. And he got a liver brownie as a reward. Mmmmmm, liver!