Dominance Training And "corrections"

[Guest amandagal]

I've heard from many animal trainers I know and read in many forums that "dominance training" has been disproven, based on faulty data, etc etc. Normally this is in relation to the "Dog Whisper" who uses those types of methods. However, I've never actually seen any research/reputable source for that. Does anyone have anything? I trained parrots when I worked at the zoo, and I know it sounds instinctively right (it works for them, you never correct a parrot, you just ignore the bad behavior and reward the good behavior), but I would like to read more about it.

 

My problem is that I'm in an obedience course now which is basically being taught by Cesar Milan. No, I kid...but the very first day we got a handout that told us always to eat first, go out the door first, etc etc. I've been told I'm either being too dominant (feeding treats from a standing position) or not dominant enough (I won't "pop" her leash to correct her when she doesn't perform and I always treat her, when the teacher says not to. . . to be honest, being around the other dogs makes her nervous enough and I want training to be positive). But, I think most of that dominance stuff is crap!

 

This week really got me when she said the treat thing. Really? My dog is like 4 feet tall and I have to squat to give her a treat so she's knows I'm not being dominating? I think during a training session if I keep giving a command squatting and standing to give another, she's going to think I'm a loon. I really think that's crap, but I don't mind being corrected...just don't yank my leash too hard. :-)

 

My grey is very "submissive" anyway. She will not eat if someone is in the room where she is. She will not go out a door first...if a person doesn't go out before her, she'll dance her pee pee dance by the door. She loves strange people, but runs from other dogs...though, she's getting better at that from being around the dogs in class.

 

On a side note, they were handing out spikey choke chains the first day to some of the dogs and I thought, "Oh [censored]. If she comes near me with that..." but they didn't (seems they were only giving them to the hyper dogs...and I do understand that some people use that method). They're not terrible or abusive or anything (and she never corrects her either, because I think she can tell I'm not comfortable with it. When she uses my dog for a demo, she is sensitive to that), and I've never said that I think it's crap or argued with her, though I think rolled my eyes this week, lol. I wouldn't argue or anything in front of the class...it's her show, and I've had that done with me "on stage" and it sucks. I did squirm when she yanked a poor lab around.

 

I would just like more information so that when she lectures me, at least I know I'm right :-)

 

Sorry that was so long-winded. I had thought to post the first week, but then I thought "Eh, the alphabitizing your dog article is basically harmless, even if I don't think it's right." I honestly don't think your dog cares when you eat. I have always fed mine before/during when I'm eating and I've never had food aggression or dominance problems, and I've had big, "aggressive" breeds before (my past dogs have been a doberman, a border collie and a dalmatian). They knew they don't eat until I say they do. I think "dominance" or what I prefer to call leadership is more about HOW you do things, rather than WHEN you do things...it's the same with human kids, parrots, dogs, heck even elephants. Nobody every talks about "alphabitizing your children." :-)

[Jackandgrey]

Try any of the Patricia McConnell books. "The Other End of the Leash" for one. It's excellent. "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller or anything by Jean Donaldson.

[JAJ2010]

Ok the people teaching the class sound loony! But then we are dog school drop outs... LOL I figure I'm able to teach them anything I need to without someone telling me my dogs are abused and that's why they don't eat in stressful situations. Honestly I'm not sure I would ever trust anyone enough to take the leash and do a demo with my dog! I'm a paranoid micro managing mom.

 

I think there are some basis to alpha stuff. Realistically I'm somewhere in the middle. I think my job is to create a safe fun learning environment. But if I stick my face down to kiss my dogs they know I'm not being dominant and scary, just giving fun cuddles. A lot of the training has to be trust based. Your dog has to trust you not to be an unfair leader.

 

My dogs usually wait at a doorway until I tell them to go through. I'm usually holding the door open so I cannot go first! They are allowed on the bed with me, but also have no issues getting off when I need them too. They eat first simply because I feed them when I get home from work. I usually eat hours later. I don't allow them to be underfoot in the kitchen while I make their food. Usually they stay in the living room until I tell them it's ready. If I'm cooking in the kitchen and it smells yummy they will lay at the doorway in hopes of getting some snacks. It usually works! I never treat if they are in the kitchen but will make a HUGE fuss about them laying outside the kitchen like good lil pups. They figured that out all on their own.

 

I don't have a kitchen table to eat at so I usually eat on the sofa. No begging or drooling while I eat and they always get called over to lick plates when I'm done. I never ignore them when I first get home. I enjoy the jumpy crazy greeting. As long as I'm not being jumped ON we are all good.

 

I've only ever popped a leash on a greyhound once. It was on Rainy and we were in a situation where she knows better and I was unable to get her attention any other way. Sure got a sheepish look from her afterwards though! "sorry Mom forgot my manners there for a minute" I wouldn't use that as a foundation training tool since it could unnerve a dog and does not create a good learning environment. Plus the hounds have sensitive necks.

 

I think it just boils down to actually having rules in your home and following them 100% so the hounds don't get confused. It almost sounds like you just there for the socialization experience. Go for that and just roll your eyes at everything else. And Dear God don't let these people touch your dog!

Edited August 30, 2010 by JAJ2010

[TheFullHouse]

I have no resources for you but I have had two hounds in my home that I would label as "aggressive" or "dominant personalities" and have had to work with them quite a bit so that they would fit within the pack. If I had never dealt with an "aggressive" hound before I wouldn't rule anything out.

 

Our most aggressive was Valentino. He walked into this house thinking he owned the place. There was no shy period, he came straight from the track with an attitude. I think in retrospect that his attitude stemmed from the fact that he thought he had to be tough to keep other dogs from messing with him. It took two years to get him to the point where he wasn't trying to boss around every dog in the house and myself and my husband. He would barrel through the dogs and knock them over like bowling pins to get down stairs first, to the door first, to his crate to be fed first and he even tried to bite me once when I was trying to get the door opened so he could go outside. He tried mounting every dog in the house (more than once) and would growl, snarl and jump at any dog that came any where near him. Honestly, if I had tried to treat him kneeling down on my knees, he would have taken my head off! All his treats were given with me standing. His food was given to him when I decided it was time and if he barreled through dogs knocking them down and hurting them, he was made to go to the back and wait until all the others had either gone downstairs or out the door. Once he figured out that he had no control over me, he started relenting little by little. He also learned that I would protect him if one of the other tried to take him on and I think that made a huge difference. We repeated this exact same scenario when JoeyB came into the house. He's still in the learning process but is doing so much better now than he was a year ago.

[Guest amandagal]

I actually have "The Other End of the Leash" and I recommend to anyone who asks about training their pets (which I often get asked at the zoo). It's a wonderful book, the primate/canine comparison is easy for people to understand. I didn't think it spoke to "debunking" those techniques specifically, but more to the positive aspects of reward training, but I probably should re-read it. I often hear that those alpha-based techniques were based on "false studies" and I guess I wanted something more specific.

 

And yes, I was a bit nervous when she took Tootie for a demo, I was prepared to jump on her (I said I wouldn't contradict her in class, but I would if she pulled my dog around like she did the lab, lol...to be fair, the lab was young, boisterous and not paying attention. Tootie is much more calm and reserved). I always have my fingers crossed that she will do good (and the trainer good too). I think it's important she "behave" for other people too, so I often encourage my friends to walk her, give her commands and treats, etc.

 

But, yes, I was only bringing her there so she could be around other dogs and so far, it's working. She's been doing better on her walks, even, so she's getting what I wanted. She doesn't bolt from other dogs like she used to and she's been sniffing her classmates (weird that I find that a good thing...but at first she would just run to the corner of the room and stare. Who would have thought someone would give a "good girl!!" super happy response for sniffing another dog's behind :-).

[Guest KennelMom]

Patricia McConnell is really good...as is (my personal favorite) Suzanne Clothier. She's got a lot of great articles on her site: http://flyingdogpress.com/

 

I think words like "dominance" and "alpha" are pretty much useless anymore...they're over used and abused, for sure. I would steer clear of any trainer that categorically ruled out certain types of training or tools - ie, any trainer that said to NEVER use correction. That's ridiculous, IME. The dog, the handler and the behavior/situation are all factors that should be considered when deciding how to approach training.

 

Cesar Milan is a dirty word for a lot trainers these days, but I think he offers a lot of great tips. People also have to keep in mind that most of his shows are focused on dogs with severe issues, not your average pet and certainly not your average greyhound.

 

The only thing you can get two trainers to agree on is that the third one is doing it all wrong. Personally, I don't follow any one school of thought. I read a lot of different approaches and mostly rely on my own experiences and observations.

 

eta: I think the "alpha" school of thought is a mis-application of the interpretation of wolf behavior to dogs. Dogs, of course, are not wolves. A lot of their social structure and behaviors may be similar, but they are not the same. They're not the same animals and, of course, the rearing of pets if much different that the rearing of a wild wolf (or even a wild dog). I'm not really up on my wolf studies, but I think our interpretation of what's actually going on in a wolf pack is also changing over time as more data comes in and more wolves are raised and observed in quasi-domestic situations.

 

I think we've also become a "kinder and gentler" culture - the old philosophy that animals (horse, dogs, whatever) had to have their spirits broken in order to be tamed is out of fashion and not quite as effective as other "more positive" and relationship based approaches. Yes, you can force a dog to submit. You can also elicit willing cooperation from a dog (probably more in line with the original nature of the human/dog relationship to begin with). The latter is much more effective and enjoyable for both parties, IMO.

Edited August 30, 2010 by KennelMom

[JAJ2010]

She doesn't bolt from other dogs like she used to and she's been sniffing her classmates (weird that I find that a good thing...but at first she would just run to the corner of the room and stare. Who would have thought someone would give a "good girl!!" super happy response for sniffing another dog's behind :-).

 

Seems normal to me! I was praising our little shy girl for stalking squirrels on leash and rolling in smelly stuff. That's what dogs are supposed to do! Not shake and cower. LOL Unfortunately we are still trying to get past that rolling in smelly stuff habit that was re enforced... I would suggest not handing the leash over to the instructor anymore unless your 100% comfy. She will pick up on your stress with the situation and it won't be a pleasant experience for your sweet girl.

 

After my one class experience with Rainy (I was shaking mad when I left) we waited a few months and drove back down to show my Mom where the dog school was since she was going to use our class credit. Rainy hid in the back of the car and refused to even look out the windows. This was from just from driving into the parking lot! And she's my normal non shy hound! They pick up on lots more than you think and it sticks with them for at least a few months. All she knew of that place is that Mom gets upset here so it must be a bad bad place. It's amazing how much they naturally look to you to make sure things are ok without you even knowing about it.

 

So enjoy your socializing time there and I'm sure you can figure out the training stuff on your own.

[Guest amandagal]

Honestly, if I had tried to treat him kneeling down on my knees, he would have taken my head off! All his treats were given with me standing.

 

Yes, I guess I should clarify. She said that I should kneel because Tootie is already shy and submissive and that by standing and treating her, I was making a dominant move and diluting the positive reward of the treat (not her exact words, but that was the gist). I just don't think Tootie cares or understands that I'm being "dominant" when I stand to give her a treat! Maybe she does, though. I doubt the trainer would have told you to kneel, because you had/have a "dominant" dog.

[greysmom]

Get your greyhound out of this class now. Period.

 

Seriously. You seem to have a better handle of training than this teacher, and you know what works for your grey. If you want to socialize her and have some fun training together, research other trainers and classes for ones that use positive reinforcement, and/or greyhound only classes taught by greyhound savvy trainers.

 

Dominance/Alpha theory has been pretty much refuted by animals behaviorists. Even wolf researchers, who put the theory forward in the beginning, now say that alpha pack theory isn't what they thought it was at first.

 

If you watch Cesar Milan, his training works because of *him,* not because of his methods. And really, all he's telling the humans to do is get a spine and not let their dogs dictate what happens in the house, and get the dogs much more exercise. It looks really dramatic and makes for great TV mostly because of how bad the dogs are, and how pathetic the people are, in the beginning.

[JAJ2010]

 

Yes, I guess I should clarify. She said that I should kneel because Tootie is already shy and submissive and that by standing and treating her, I was making a dominant move and diluting the positive reward of the treat (not her exact words, but that was the gist). I just don't think Tootie cares or understands that I'm being "dominant" when I stand to give her a treat! Maybe she does, though. I doubt the trainer would have told you to kneel, because you had/have a "dominant" dog.

 

Is she taking the treat when you offer it? If so then she's fine! LOL If you make her feel uncomfy she will ignore the treat. You can even up the pressure by asking her to take it from your mouth. But that is hard for a new shy hound to do. You need to focus on confidence building, not dominance stuff, which it sounds like your already doing. If she refused to come up and grab a treat then you might want to squat down and give her your shoulder so your not looking at her.

Edited August 30, 2010 by JAJ2010

[TheFullHouse]

Honestly, if I had tried to treat him kneeling down on my knees, he would have taken my head off! All his treats were given with me standing.

 

Yes, I guess I should clarify. She said that I should kneel because Tootie is already shy and submissive and that by standing and treating her, I was making a dominant move and diluting the positive reward of the treat (not her exact words, but that was the gist). I just don't think Tootie cares or understands that I'm being "dominant" when I stand to give her a treat! Maybe she does, though. I doubt the trainer would have told you to kneel, because you had/have a "dominant" dog.

 

 

I have to agree with you on this one, I don't think a dog cares whether you're kneeling or standing when it comes to treats. I'm open minded enough to listen to everyone and maybe try some things but generally I just do what works for me. That doesn't mean it will work for everyone. I think you know your dog better than the trainer does at this point and I'd do what you're comfortable with.

[Guest FastDogsOwnMe]

It's fine to use a correction if you're doing it as part of learning theory. If you're doing it because you want the dog to "know who is boss" than you're living in the dark ages. There is a big difference, including an entirely out of date view on dogs in general compared with knowledge of how dogs actually work and why they do what they do. Modify the behavior- not the dog.

[Guest gecko_foot]

On a side note, they were handing out spikey choke chains the first day to some of the dogs and I thought, "Oh [censored]. If she comes near me with that..." but they didn't (seems they were only giving them to the hyper dogs...and I do understand that some people use that method). They're not terrible or abusive or anything (and she never corrects her either, because I think she can tell I'm not comfortable with it. When she uses my dog for a demo, she is sensitive to that), and I've never said that I think it's crap or argued with her, though I think rolled my eyes this week, lol. I wouldn't argue or anything in front of the class...it's her show, and I've had that done with me "on stage" and it sucks. I did squirm when she yanked a poor lab around.

 

Sorry that was so long-winded. I had thought to post the first week, but then I thought "Eh, the alphabitizing your dog article is basically harmless, even if I don't think it's right." I honestly don't think your dog cares when you eat. I have always fed mine before/during when I'm eating and I've never had food aggression or dominance problems, and I've had big, "aggressive" breeds before (my past dogs have been a doberman, a border collie and a dalmatian). They knew they don't eat until I say they do. I think "dominance" or what I prefer to call leadership is more about HOW you do things, rather than WHEN you do things...it's the same with human kids, parrots, dogs, heck even elephants. Nobody every talks about "alphabitizing your children." :-)

 

I agree with you 100% on defining proper dominance training (i.e. the kind that your dog DOESN'T fear you for) as leadership training instead. No tool you use to train your dog should EVER hurt the dog OR make him/her afraid of you, and I would never use any tool on my animals without good reason. I don't disagree with prong colors if their use is merited, but handing them out the first day is too much. You don't start out breaking a horse with a barbed wire bit in his mouth, and you certainly don't start out dogs that way. Thank you for such a great post.

[MerlinsMum]

Try any of the Patricia McConnell books. "The Other End of the Leash" for one. It's excellent. "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller or anything by Jean Donaldson.

 

^ This.

 

Get your greyhound out of this class now. Period.

 

^ and DEFINITELY this.

[Guest LindsaySF]

I would run screaming from that class. Sorry I don't have any other advice to offer. I used to have several articles saved but I lost them when my last computer crashed. Do a search online, you should get some good stuff. Also PM Mom2Shiloh, she shared some links with me once that debunk dominance theory. Good luck.

[sobesmom]

I don't have references for you, sorry. I've just always relied on good old common sense. In my house, there is a heirarchy...but we really don't work too hard at it. People first, then dogs. Dogs have a heirarchy amongst themselves - and they usually work it out.

 

I've never felt the need to do anything special to be "Dominant" above my dogs - because to me, that's just normal. Dogs want a leader - "pick me"! I've got the food, and I show them what is expected. Dogs crave knowing what is expected of them. I'm NOT a bully. I lead. They follow. Most dogs love to follow someone that is willing to lead.

 

I have deal with several dogs that tried to push into running the show - heck, not a biggie - who wouldn't try to take over if it's your personality and you were new in the place? Those dogs get corrected. NO - you can't own the couch and growl at humans - OFF the couch. They learn. They're all just looking for their place in the pack.

 

ETA: my experience is ONLY with greyhounds. If you're in an all-breed class, there ARE breeds of dogs that need different incentives and corrections.... just make SURE that you're comfortable doing what makes SENSE for YOUR dog.

Edited August 31, 2010 by sobesmom

[Guest mcsheltie]

Try any of the Patricia McConnell books. "The Other End of the Leash" for one. It's excellent. "The Power of Positive Dog Training" by Pat Miller or anything by Jean Donaldson.

 

^ This.

 

Get your greyhound out of this class now. Period.

 

^ and DEFINITELY this.

Double yup! I would look into clicker training. It is an absolute blast. Creating a thinking dog who works because he wants to is the best training ever. I started out in club that subscribed to the worst of the Kohler methods. And thru the years have come full circle and started using a clicker. It rocks!

[Pennymom]

Maybe one of these links will be what you are looking for? Here is an article about the American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior's response to punishment-based training: http://vetmedicine.about.com/b/2009/07/07/veterinary-behaviorists-take-a-stand-against-cesar-millan.htm

 

And here is a blurb written by Jean Donaldson: http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html

 

Hope those help.

[greytpups]

I read a book recently by Malcolm Gladwell, I've read a lot of his books so I can't remember which one it was but I think it was "Outliers" and it described how it is the way Caesar moves and not what he does with the dog that works. the fluidity of his movement, the slight tilt of his head, movements that most of us cannot replicate. I also read an article that debunked Caesar's methods with great explanations. I'm sure you can google it.

[Jackandgrey]

Maybe one of these links will be what you are looking for? Here is an article about the American Veterinary Society of Animal behavior's response to punishment-based training: http://vetmedicine.a...esar-millan.htm

 

And here is a blurb written by Jean Donaldson: http://www.urbandawg...profession.html

 

Hope those help.

 

Wonderful resources. Thank you.

[kudzu]

But, I think most of that dominance stuff is crap!

Most of it is. I cannot tell you how tired I am of people using dominance in place of leadership & training.

 

This week really got me when she said the treat thing. Really? My dog is like 4 feet tall and I have to squat to give her a treat so she's knows I'm not being dominating? I think during a training session if I keep giving a command squatting and standing to give another, she's going to think I'm a loon.

I can't say whether she will think you are a loon or not, but I can tell you what my dog would feel is the "dominant" thing to do. If I got down so we are basically eye to eye every time I was trying to give her a treat, instead of taking the treat she would look away. If I leaned over her every time I gave her a treat, she would look &/or back away. If I just reached down & gave her a treat without leaning over her or staring at her she would take it & work to get another.

 

Your trainer sounds like she is not knowledgeable on some things, confused on others & just plain wrong on some. Let me tell you the number one reason for not using dominance & correction based training. It isn't necessary & all too often is applied in an inconsistent, confusing &/or harsh manner. As for Cesar Millan, while he isn't all wrong he is wrong too often, frequently misleading and downright dangerous at times. That is why his show needs the disclaimer at the beginning. It makes good TV because it is dramatic but that doesn't make it good dog behavior modification or good dog training. More effective & safer behavior modification techniques exist but are not going to get the same viewer ratings. If parrots, whose feather weight selves can do serious damage, killer whales, elephants, wolves, bears, etc. can all be trained to do unnecessary behaviors on cue & things like voluntarily present various portions of their anatomy for uncomfortable vet procedures without anyone ever touching, yelling or otherwise dominating them, why can't we also train domestic dogs, who exist because humans created them, without that stuff?

 

Someone has already posted a link which includes some info from AVSAB. Here is a link directly their page where you can download in PDF format some of their position statements including those on Dominance, Punishment and How to Choose a Trainer.

 

Here are a few other references:

Survey of the use and outcome of confrontational and non-confrontational training methods in client-owned dogs showing undesired behaviors

Dominance in domestic dogs—useful construct or bad habit?

Dominance Versus Leadership in Dog Training - PDF version of an article by Dr Sophia Yin with references cited on last page

Dominance Myths and Dog Training Realities - ok, ok, this one isn't scientific, just common sense, logical & true

Why Won't Dominance Die? - another good article with references at the end

Edited September 2, 2010 by kudzu

[kudzu]

OK, now I'm going to vent a bit. My big problem with the type of training you describe is that, like much of pet dog training used to be, it concentrates too much on making behaviors stop. Stop jumping, stop pulling on the leash, stop mouthing. What are we teaching them to do instead? And why are we waiting for them to do the wrong thing so we can correct it? Too often when rewards are included in these classes it is done to reward the dog for stopping a behavior. Dog is pulling so we must correct them for pulling by popping on the leash & using training collars. After the dog stops pulling you can reward. And of course in the process most folks have allowed the dog to advance a bit so that is the ultimate reward & why dogs keep pulling.

 

Then that dratted dominance thing gets added in. Is the dog pulling to get out ahead of you so he can be dominant. Mine doesn't. She pulls for various reasons all boiling down to about the same thing. She wants to go that way, NOW. I either don't want to go that way or not as fast. Instead of just taking away the reward these classes add various tools to make doing the wrong thing more unpleasant. so thinking in terms of a dog in one of these types of classes, does she know that I want her to walk on a loose leash or have I only taught her that frequently she will get leash pops but sometimes she still gets to advance a bit? If she can't figure it out is she being dominant? Stubborn? Stupid? According to some of these trainers yes. That's how hounds have ended up with reputations for being harder to train. And in the OP's case she is getting corrections from the trainer. In that situation would I then feeling rewarded & motivated to continue training? Heck no, not me. Too much negativity, too much correction, too much looking for the wrong thing, too much of a big ol' bummer.

 

The best piece of dog training advice I ever got was a question, "What do you want your dog to do?" The idea is not to wait for something to correct but to reward before then. It's simple but apparently not really so simple since so many of us need a lot of help learning how to look for the right thing & reward it. Just like effective, safe dog behaviorists don't make for exciting TV the way a guy like Millan does, dogs behaving nicely do not catch our attention the way a dog behaving badly does. We tend to ignore that good behavior especially when it is at a point when it only lasts for seconds.

 

In my case, when it finally clicked, what this "But what do you want the dog TO DO?" question meant, I had an overgrown staghound puppy intermittently barking, mouthing or jumping me from behind & grabbing me. She would seemingly suddenly erupt into this in different places at different time either to get my attention, to release excess energy or to release tension in uncomfortable situations. "What do you want your dog to do?" What I wanted was for her to stop jumping, barking & mouthing. "But what do you want the dog TO DO?" My dog needed to know what to do instead of what I didn't want her to do. I had to train her what to do & it did not involve any corrections. I just needed to reward her before she jumped, with all four feet on the ground, while she was quiet & not mouthing me. She needed consistent reinforcement when doing the right thing, non reinforcement when doing the wrong thing & safe, humane management when neither of the first two options were available.

 

What she was doing was startling & at times painful. However, she was seeking attention, not dominance. She was seeking release from stress, not trying to bully me. Yet even if it had been an aggressive, dangerous dog the method would have worked. And if the dog had been dangerous the training could have been started at a safe distance with a fence or xpen between us. Ah, but you are not likely to ever seen that on a show like the Dog Whisperer. Too boring & the behaviorist would look like a whimp, too scared to go one on one with that dangerous dog.

Edited September 2, 2010 by kudzu

[Batmom]

But what do you want the dog TO DO?

 

Perfect.

[turbotaina]

But what do you want the dog TO DO?

 

Perfect.

 

Yes.

 

When you want a specific behavior, there are a million wrong things your dog could do and only one right thing. How will your dog know the difference unless he is taught what TO DO? It saves a lot of time and energy if you teach him what you want first, instead of the million things he shouldn't be doing

[kudzu]

But what do you want the dog TO DO?

 

Perfect.

Yeah, I should have left it at that.

 

Oh well, it was late, I was tired, & I watched someone being stupid at agility that made me want to tell the owner to "kennel up" for a time out. That's my excuse & I'm sticking with it.