Still Super Skittish After 3 Months

[Hollis]

And yes, I know that 3 months is not a long time. But. She wont come near us. And feeding is a nightmare.

 

She is most secure in her crate or on her pillow in the bedroom. I can pet her if she's on her pillow but she's not thrilled. Breakfast is not as difficult as dinner but both meals require major coaxing and dinner is usually finished in her crate. She does sleep in the bedroom with us and will go to DP's side of the bed in the morning when the alarm goes off just to make sure DP has actually heard the alarm and is getting up. But we cant get within 3 feet of her. She RUNS away from us. She knows outside and will come in when I whistle. But I cant be anywhere near the door and she runs in like her tail is on fire. And she pants and paces constantly. She gets a melatonin at breakfast and dinner. We make no sudden moves and no loud voices. She's fine with both her grey brother and her little brother and sister.

 

We are planning on Dewey but if we cant get some sort of breakthrough I'm afraid we wont be able to get her out of the cottage. I'm seriously considering canceling because she will just be miserable. We have had NO leash training simply because to even get a collar on her she has to be cornered. Same with the stairs. Cant train her on stairs if she's afraid of US.

 

She is completely safe here. She's not going anywhere. If the best we get is a tail wag when we come home, we're ok with that. We didnt adopt her for us, we adopted her for her.

 

Help?

Edited August 11, 2010 by Holly

[Batmom]

Corner her once a day when you'll be home for awhile, put the collar on, and do some stuff with her for an hour. Take Norm so she's got somedoggy to mimic. Go for a little walk, little car ride, come home, have a 3-minute dog grooming (petting) session (squat down next to her, don't bend over), "good girl!" and a little piece of cheese or so. Now, before you take the collar off and let her go, start teaching "Come!" Say your "Come!" from right smack dab in front of her and if so much as turns her head in your direction, "good girl!" and a little piece of cheese. If she was already looking at you, great, "good girl!" and cheese. Repeat that 5-6 times, done for the evening, take the collar off. ............. When you approach her, try your best to keep your shoulder rather than your face and eyes turned towards her -- just kinda sidle up to her. When you call her to come, same thing. When you go to put her collar on, tell her what you're going to do, same words, same tone every time. .............. If she's goofy about eating outside her crate but will eat in it, I'd just feed her in it. I'd also discontinue the melatonin. Hugs and best luck!

[GreyPoopon]

What Batmom said.

 

I think Graham would still be hiding in his crate if I hadn't insisted that he go for walks with his group, and if I hadn't done some training every day--just little bits at a time. Granted that he would take a treat, so we were ahead of you guys, but the point is that just a little low-key handling and training goes a long way toward building the bond and trust.

[Hollis]

I may be easier to ask by inserting my questions. Sorry if this makes anybody crazy!

 

 

Corner her once a day when you'll be home for awhile, on her pillow ok? I know her pillow is her "safe" place and I dont want to take that away from her, put the collar on, and do some stuff with her for an hour. Take Norm so she's got somedoggy to mimic. ok if hes' just on the pillow next to us? Go for a little walk, little car ride, cant do either until we can teach her stairs. 6 steps into the house and then all one floor including to go out, come home, have a 3-minute dog grooming (petting) session (squat down next to her, don't bend over), "good girl!" we're both really good at squatting and gets a billizion good girls a day! No problem there! and a little piece of cheese or so. wont take from our hand. Ok to put it down in front of her? Now, before you take the collar off and let her go, start teaching "Come!" Say your "Come!" from right smack dab in front of her and if so much as turns her head in your direction, "good girl!" and a little piece of cheese. If she was already looking at you, great, "good girl!" and cheese. Repeat that 5-6 times, done for the evening, take the collar off. ............. I'm fairly certain we'll be ok with the "come". She was fine on leash when we brought her home. And she was tethered to me thru the night for the first 3-4 nights. (1st night she actually slept in a crate downstairs with me on the couch in front of her. She crated herself the second we got home and I didnt have the heart to get her out. Matter of fact the next morning a friend came over to help me with her and we literally had to tip the crate to get her out. She wouldnt come out for nothing.) When you approach her, try your best to keep your shoulder rather than your face and eyes turned towards her -- just kinda sidle up to her. When you call her to come, same thing. When you go to put her collar on, tell her what you're going to do, same words, same tone every time. ..............again, its not really the collar thats the issue its the GETTING to her! If she's goofy about eating outside her crate but will eat in it, I'd just feed her in it. I'm getting closer to this but the routine change is going to be tricky. Norm had to be gated away from Tanner during meals. So Tanner and the littles ate in the kitchen and Norm would be gated in the hallway to eat. The greys room is at the end of the hall. So somehow we'd have to get Bree into her room/crate first and then bring Norm down the hallway. Or try to break the 3 year habit of Norm being in the hallway. Doable but routine changing. And for some odd reason DP is against her eating in her crate. Again-this can also be changed! But what do we do for Dewey? The crates dont come into the cottage. How the heck do we get her to eat without a crate? The crates WILL be in the car and as I've been plotting this I've been wondering if we'll have to feed her in the car!! I'd also discontinue the melatonin. Why?Hugs and best luck!

 

Good lord I hope you can follow all that! Thanks so much!!!

[GreyTzu]

After 2 and a half years, Danger just started coming into the bedroom. My advise is to just go about your life normally and do what you need to do with her.

 

True spooks are always going to be spooks and you will not change that. It's possible to help a spook cope better, but a true spook is a true spook. That, in my opinion, it the hardest realization for someone who adopts a true spook to accept.

 

Danger will still run and duck when I walk over to him with his food bowl. If Kevin and I are walking around and laughing "too" loud, he still weirds out.

 

When he came home, we quickly found out hard he did not like "hands in the air" type of behavior. So anytime we approached him we did a lot of "jazz hands" and now, for the most part, he is fine with hands in the air.

 

There are times when I reach out to pet him and he will duck, still to this day. When I take off his muzzle from a potty trip, he ducks as if I am going to beat him. Because you know, I beat my dogs often. :rolleyes: Anyway, I just ignore it and do what I need to do. Sometime, talking in a loud funny voice will weird him out and again I do it anyway. I frequently tell him as he is ducking what a dork he is, in that funny voice and he just looks at me. Dork! :lol

 

It was a year before he would take a treat from my hand. And now, some times he still won't take them, preferring to duck in the corner and wait until I toss it to him. Sometimes when he refuses to take it from my hand, I don't give it to him. But that really is not a reward/punishment type of method from me, more of just whatever. Sometimes I will tell him well, screw it if you won't take it from my hand today. Of course, then he stand there with that pitiful look on his face and his eyes well up. What a dork he is.

 

Danger gets 3 Stress Free Calmplex tabs a day from Springtime. Do they make a difference? I'm not sure, but I think so. Do they make him "normal?" Not on your life. He is a spook and absolutely will be a spook forever.

 

Danger is not crated at all. He loves the cats and 'Tzus. He totally does want loving and attention, but who knows why, some times he freaks out and sometimes he is in the mix with the other dogs demanding attention. Once again, a true spook is a true spook is a true spook...

 

And he LOVES LOVES LOVES our morning walks! He gets the most excited of all the dogs when I grab the leashes. Yet, he prefers to wear his "cloak of invisibility" when we walk. Odd movements, read cats and squirrels on the road ahead will get him attention and he starts to shy away bit. We just walk on, being of course aware of him and his movement, while talking to him in calm voice.

 

When Danger got hurt while we were in Key West almost 2 years ago, I had this very same conversation with our pet sitter over the phone. She is a very experienced animal person and a Vet Tech. I have no fears or concerns leaving my animals in her care. But she needed to take Danger in for stitches. I told her to do what she needed to do, but keep in mind that if he gets loose, he will not be caught. She told me after that I had expressed my concern very well and at that point she understood what I meant. When we picked up Danger, she had his leash/harness with her at the clinic and a huge note on his cage stating how and where he was to be walked!

 

I do use the harness/safety strap set-up when I walk him. I know that if he ever gets loose, he will never be caught. His leash is attached to the collar and the collar and harness are attached by a safety strap.

 

This is Dylan and my leash set-up:

 

 

 

 

 

This is my "Freak on a Leash" Danger:

 

 

 

 

 

Good luck with Bree. I know you won't give up.

[TheFullHouse]

Unless you make a lot of progress before Dewey, I'd be tempted to cancel. It sounds like more than she can handle at this point.

 

If she will eat in her crate, feed her there, it is her safe place. Leave the door open so she can go in and out at will. It sounds like you've gotten some good advice. I'd just take it super slow with her.

[greysmom]

As the Mom to a super spook, I'll put in my two cents.

 

You already know 3 months is not a very long time. I'll say again - for a spook, it's NOT a very long time! Cash has been with us for a bit over two years and is just now beginning to act like a "normal" dog most of the time.

 

Two things that helped us the most: 1) treat her like a normal dog, don't coddle her behavior too much. 2) teach her things that help her build trust in you and confidence in herself.

 

1) Yes, she's scared of a lot of things. But *you* know those things won't hurt her and are OK. She needs to see that you have confidence in those things and in her. If the only place you can touch her is her special pillow, then you should go there many times during the day - just a quick pet (on her body or under her chin NOT on top of her head as that's threatening), and a treat, some kind words and attention. You're not taking away her safe place, you're telling her it's OK for you to be there too. If you want to go for a walk, go there and put her collar on and say "OK! Let's go!" and lead her away.

 

Don't let her fear stop you from teaching her the stairs. Use the leash and really really yummy tasty smelly best-in-the-world treats - liverwurst or stinky cheese or hot dogs. If she won't take it from your hand, set it down for her. Do several repetitions and then stop. Let her go back to her safe pillow and decompress for a while. When she's calm again, go to her with a treat and a quick pet and leave again. In a couple hours, try the stairs again.

 

Expose her to the things that scare her in very small doses. Keep your eye on her to monitor her anxiety level and keep the sessions short and positive. Happy, matter-of-fact voice - no squeaking or baby-talk. Encourage and reward.

 

2) One of the best things we taught Cash was the "watch me" command. She needs to be able to take a treat and at least be with you calmly on the the leash or off. You could even do this while she's in her safe place. Show her the (really yummy!!) treat at her nose, "watch me!" and bring the treat towards your face. If she follows the treat at all, tell her "good girl!" and give it to her. Gradually extend the nose-to-nose until you can have her looking in your eyes before she gets a "good girl" and the treat. My theory - looking into the eyes is a very dominant behavior. By encouraging her to look at you (and you at her) you're giving her confidence and telling her it's OK to do that with you.

 

Find other ways to boost her confidence and increase her trust - other games and commands. If your other dog(s) help her then have them near her and use them to help build her trust.

 

 

As far as eating goes, I'm not sure why there would be any objection to a fearful dog eating where she feels comfortable. I understand the logistical problems involved, but hopefully, this will be a short-term thing and not a for-the-rest-of-her life thing. Feed her first and keep her in her crate until the others are done. Or feed her after the others are done. Eventually, she should be able to eat where you want her to. My Cash spent almost a year eating in the living room where she felt safer before being able to transition to the kitchen with everyone else.

 

The melatonin is obviously not helping her, or not helping her enough. You can try other OTC help like Rescue Remedy or DAP diffusers/collar. I would also urge you to talk to your vet about some prescription medication, at least for the short term. Before training can be of any help, her brain needs to be in a state where she can accept it. If she is never calm and always fearful/anxious no matter what is happening or who is near her, she needs some additional help to gain that brain state.

 

Once she is in a receptive frame of mind, you can really help her. Prescriptions do not mean that you are a failure as a Mom, or that your home is not the home for her. It just means she needs more help. It also doesn't mean she will need to be on them for the rest of her life. My feeling is that I wouldn't want to live in a constant state of fear, and if a drug could help me, then it should be used properly as a tool to help, along with behavior modification and gentle desensitization techniques.

 

You may want to rethink her participation in Dewey this year. It sounds like it may be to much for her, and traveling is never as secure as your own home. Just my feeling.

[Batmom]

Some good advice from Greysmom, which I think answered your questions? For 6 stairs, yeah, I'd just teach her. If Norm will do stairs on leash, take him along. Kari (Wonder) just brought a shy/spooky girl off the track, she had to do 8-9 stairs first time, google-eyed it and then just followed everybody else. ....... If you're nervous about taking her places, heck, put her on leash, work on "heel" around the house and out the door to your fenced yard, back in again, etc. ....... When I have a dog who won't take treats from my hand, I always offer. I will put treats on stairs or scary slippery linoleum; otherwise, if we're heeling for example and dog won't take treat, I don't set it down. Sooner or later she'll take one from you.

[Hollis]

Thanks so much guys. (PLEASE keep it coming though!)

 

Tanner was a nervous nelly and in the beginning wouldnt even come out of the bedroom when visitors came. At the end he was right out there woofing the strangers away!

 

Norm walked in to the house, laid down and claimed his home. Done.

 

Bree is only our 3rd grey and totally different then Tanner and Norm. Although when Tanner came home he was super skittish and I was able to take him to work with me every day. I'm certain that made a huge difference. Unfortunately I cant do that with Bree. I said that we brought Bree home for Bree and not for us.Thats not completely true. She was brought home for Norm. Norm HATED being alone after Tanner left us.

 

Tanner alone came to work with me everyday for 9 mos.

Norm came home and Tanner came to work and Norm went to day care. I knew I couldnt bring both and still wanted Tanner to get the benefit of being out. Norm had no trouble with people but hated being alone or left anywhere. And trust me, the doggy day care people would bring them upstairs into the house during the day! Spolied? Nah, not Norm!

And then wisdom kicked in and they BOTH started staying home!

When Tanner left us I tried leaving Norm at home. He would fight me tooth and nail to be put in his crate and while I know we could have tried leaving him, something about him always said to me "yeah, go ahead, try it. see what you come home to!" So the greys room is set up with a fan, a radio and the TV left on. TV goes off after about 6 hrs so thats why the radio)

So Norm wouldnt stay home and I couldnt/wouldnt bring him to work. My office moved from upstairs and down a hallway to downstairs next to the entrance door! Waaaay to close to "freedom" for me. Although Norm would also hate to be left in my office so he would probably stick by my side the entire time. (I have brought him a couple of times so I know he's whiny when I'm not in there with him.)

 

And thats why Bree is home!

 

We had room, Norm needed somebody and angels directed me to Bree. Now that she's here we couldnt imagine her NOT.

 

So I guess I have a true spook on my hands, eh? I have martingale harnesses for both of them but I guess a spook harness is in order.

 

My silly little girl. Who, btw, had no problem getting on the couch all by herself and with no prompting. Norm still hasnt tried the couch upstairs and Tanner never dared. So she does have some nerve. I just need to get her to trust.

 

 

 

Sorry for the ramble..........

[robinw]

Good advice from all. Phene was never a spook but was extremely shy and hesitant about everything. it took several years for him to eat from my hand and still has his moments. With phene, it took lots and lots of patience. He didn't start to come out of his shell until I adopted Loca.Be calm and patient around Bree and lower your expectations, taking one day at a time. Everything will be fine

[Hollis]

Good advice from all. Phene was never a spook but was extremely shy and hesitant about everything. it took several years for him to eat from my hand and still has his moments. With phene, it took lots and lots of patience. He didn't start to come out of his shell until I adopted Loca.Be calm and patient around Bree and lower your expectations, taking one day at a time. Everything will be fine

 

 

I want to clarify something so Robin thank you for saying this. I am in no way am complaining about her. I love her to pieces. My frustration is because my heart breaks for her. I want HER to be comfortable. Was I hoping for a snuggle bunny? Yup. Third grey and not one wants to cuddle. Maybe I'm not cuddly??? But she is perfect as she is because she is her. Someone (NOT a grey person) had the audacity to suggest returning her. Yeah, right. 9yos, entire life on a farm, mult litters-21 pups, and I should return her??? Dont EVEN go there with me. She is HOME. And if home to her is her crate to her pillow to her crate to her pillow so be it.

[GreyTzu]

Danger does not get on the furniture. Ha has never made an effort to do that.

 

And he is absolutely the worst barker in the house. Any noise by the door, he barks. We come home, he barks. BARK BARK BARK!! I guess he never read the rule book about greyhounds not barking. Again my Freak-on-a-Leash. :lol

 

Kevin very frequently lays on the floor with the dogs. When he first tried it with Danger, of course he jumped up and ran to a corner. But next time, Kevin, very quietly moved and sort of came behind him and by the time Danger realized he was there, Kevin was already on the floor rubbing his leg. Danger just resorted to that look of abject horror on his face and his eyes bulged out a bit. :lol

[Hollis]

Danger does not get on the furniture. Ha has never made an effort to do that.

 

And he is absolutely the worst barker in the house. Any noise by the door, he barks. We come home, he barks. BARK BARK BARK!! I guess he never read the rule book about greyhounds not barking. Again my Freak-on-a-Leash. :lol

 

Kevin very frequently lays on the floor with the dogs. When he first tried it with Danger, of course he jumped up and ran to a corner. But next time, Kevin, very quietly moved and sort of came behind him and by the time Danger realized he was there, Kevin was already on the floor rubbing his leg. Danger just resorted to that look of abject horror on his face and his eyes bulged out a bit. :lol

 

Y this girl is so super quick I couldnt get NEAR her if she was laying on the floor!

 

So now I have to ask, why is it ok for us to touch/pet/love/brush her on her pillow when I thought the "rule" was if they're on their pillow you leave them alone? Not a snarky question an honest one.

[Batmom]

She probably lets you pet her there because she feels she has a decent escape route or she at least feels in control ("this is MY spot and I am ALLOWING this person to pet me just a little"). I always keep an eye on the sharp end when the dog is lying down or in a crate.

[greysmom]

You can get in her safe space in small doses and watching for her comfort level. Try to leave before she gets uncomfortable - or *too* uncomfortable!

 

Cash was really much like Bree when we first got her. She was just beginning to come out of her shell when we lost our oldest grey. We didn't even ralize at the time how much Cash was relying on Libby, but Cash simply fell apart when Libby died very suddenly.

 

She spent hours and days upstairs in our bedroom - her safe spot - and will still retreat there if she feels anxious. Something that I'm happy to say is becoming less and less frequent. We just let her hang out there, and visited her frequently. Eventually, she started spending more time downstairs with the rest of us. She wouldn't eat in the kitchen even though it was just steps from the living room. She needed the open space around her to feel safe enough to eat. She is eating in the kitchen now (after months of moving her bowl inches closer!) though most of her body is still in the living room. She's just silly!

 

Cash's biggest problem with us is that she won't come inside consistently when we want/need her too. All our other greys LOVE coming inside since they all get a treat right away. Cash could care less about a) staying with the rest of her pack, and getting a treat. It took months before she would take anything, let alone from our hand. And she still will actually spit food/treats out of her mouth if she feels threatened/anxious. I've never seen a dog that will do that! She would not let us come up to her outside and she wouldn't come to us. So she has been on-leash outside for nearly the whole time she has been with us (3 years). This has been getting better, but I still don't risk letting her off leash if I don't have four hours to spare trying to catch her in the yard!

 

As I said before, there were several things we did that helped her. Also involved was putting her on alprazolam (generic xanax). It helped the training sink in. We're now in the process of weaning her off it, and so far so good. We're not noticing much if any increase in her anxious behavior, so we're hopeful she won't need any further medication therapy.

 

The thing that helped her the most though (and I'm not suggesting this as a solution for you) was when we adopted another *girl* grey. We didn't really think about it before we brought Toni home. Cash had two older grey brothers at home already, so it wasn't like she was a singe dog in the house. However, the change in Cash's behavior after Toni came home was so remarkable it was hard to miss. It was like she finally realized this was home and she was safe. We figure it must have something to do with the fact that greys are kept separated by gender in the racing kennels, and she felt more comfortable with another girl around. Go figure!

 

We don't have the problem you do regarding the leash. Cash is the best of our four when walking on-leash. And we always have collars on at home, so that's not an issue either.

 

Just some things to cheer you up! Time and patience! Patience and time!

[Guest myjazzy]

You have gotten some great advice. True spooks are just born that way, and you can work with them up to a point, but they will always be spooks. I would not take her to Dewey if I were you, at least not this year. I think it would be really stressful for both of you. In my experience with spooks, they dont do very well in unfamiliar places and new situations. Think of him as being autistic, because its very much like that.

Edited August 13, 2010 by myjazzy

[GreyTzu]

Burp.

[Hollis]

Oh Y. How I miss that spooky little girl.

 

 

I hope this thread will help the poster this was burped for. There is nothing better in the world than watching a spook blossom.

[GreyTzu]

Burp

[Guest willderbeast]

just be calm around her. I have a 17 year old that is still skiddish after spending 14 years with her every single day

[sobesmom]

I have nothing to offer in regard to dealing with a super-spook. But - I had a spook as a foster. My DH detested that dog for a while- because we couldn't pet her, couldn't call her, and when she was in the fenced yard to pee, couldn't get her to come back in the house.

 

But - through months of patience, she got to be ok. Never the most outgoing dog, still super skittish, but ok. She was adopted by a woman that works at a half-way house for mentally challenged adults, and goes to work with her mom every day - and is a rock star at work. She could never be left home alone. She could never do "group greyhound walks". But she's FABULOUS with her clients. They bond. They share their anxieties. That dog helps people. By being who SHE is. Insecure. Scared. She's NOT a certified therapy dog - there's no WAY she could ever pass the test. But she helps people. In a "safe place".

 

My point is - spooks will probably never become outgoing dogs. But they have value for who they are, and need a lot of help to get to be OK. Never "normal" (I hate to say that), but ok.

 

Good luck to you. It's a journey I couldn't take. I respect you for trying.