Question About Religion And Animals

[Guest FordRacingRon]

"No. We're just happy that they screen out the folks who'd leave their best friends behind in exchange for material things."

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"If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went." Will Rogers, 1897-1935

 

 

Love it!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

That's been on my Siggy line from the day I joined Greytalk,,and I am sticking to it.

[Forevermybabies]

In most of the above post they say ( I believe that etc. etc. ) well its just that , its what you believe not what GOD created , and don't believe what some human says just because he believes it , only believe the inspired word of GOD which over thousands of years have never been proven wrong and that hundred of predictions have come to pass.

 

Yes, and that's what we have been discussing. While I have received many links and quotations from the Bible that specifically address my original question, I also appreciate hearing people's opinions.

 

I think that a discussion of belief systems amongst friends is always a welcome relief from the daily drudgery of our "humanness."

 

Thank you to everyone.

[macoduck]

The argument that animals do not go to heaven is based on the theory that animals do not have souls. As in they are incapable of emotion. There are many people who sincerely believe that animals are incapable of emotion and that they operate on instinct alone. They are wrong. Animals have souls, created by God, and their souls go back to God in heaven when they pass on. I am a Christian BTW. I no longer get into debates with other Christians who strongly believe the opposite of what I do on this issue. It just never goes well.

So you must be a vegetarian, right? How could you eat something with a soul?

 

Easy. They're delicious.

I agree.

 

Not trying to start an argument, just adding another angle on this. If you believe a dog has a soul, then every animal has a soul. If every animal has a soul, then you should feel bad about not being a vegetarian, right? Eating something with a soul ?

 

My personal belief is God set us apart from animals by giving us His Spirit. Animals dont have to stand before judgement by God one day; humans do. God loves every one of his creations: every person, animal, flower, etc., but humans are in a different class.

 

 

All the dogs/heavens threads are *There are 3 currently going, and only God knows the answer.

 

(Bold typeface above added by me) Well, there is already is soulfood.

[Burpdog]

I'll start by saying I know I'll see my dogs again.

 

As far as scripture, if you believe in the bible, it states death is a separation of spirit and body and that there will be a resurrection, so all will be restored, including animals.

 

I can't wait to talk to them!

[MP_the4pack]

My personal belief is God set us apart from animals by giving us His Spirit. Animals dont have to stand before judgement by God one day; humans do. God loves every one of his creations: every person, animal, flower, etc., but humans are in a different class.

 

Man has to stand in judgement because only Man has a free will to do evil. No other animal is evil just to be evil. Only man.

 

 

 

[SAVED2]

My personal belief is God set us apart from animals by giving us His Spirit. Animals dont have to stand before judgement by God one day; humans do. God loves every one of his creations: every person, animal, flower, etc., but humans are in a different class.

 

Man has to stand in judgement because only Man has a free will to do evil. No other animal is evil just to be evil. Only man.

 

Boy ain't that the truth.

 

[Forevermybabies]

Yeah, I think that's an interesting point, and certainly I think that clarifies what I've heard other people say. I'm not sure that it addresses my particular question, but I'm going to pass it along to my friend. He was trying to explain what he believes, and I think that sums it up perfectly. Thanks.

[Gryffenne]

This was always an ongoing debate between my mom & I and my dad. He says NO, we say YES. I think his "no" tho is based on what he was taught. (Catholic school, a Brother in a Monestary for 6 years, etc...) I'm eager to mention the Pope's stance to him

 

He's funny about these things, tho. While he will hold firm on the no animals in heaven bit, he did give Sammi a medallion of St Francis for her tag collar. And he's asked me if I 'd like ot bring her to the blessing of the pets every year. Unfortuantely, as much as i would love to, not sure it would go over well having Ms Prey Drive there.

 

While I was raised Catholic, I am not a practicing one, as in, I don't go to church weekly. My thoughts seem to be very similar to that of Kevin Smith's and someday i will have the guts to sit my Dad down and watch Dogma with him.

[Guest 4baddogs]

They definitely go to heaven. We're the ones who have to worry about gettin' in.

 

I found this from the last time we had our dogs blessed:

“Blessed are you, Lord God, maker of all living creatures. You called forth fish in the sea, birds in the air and animals on the land. You inspired St. Francis to call all of them his brothers and sisters. We ask you to bless this pet. By the power of your love, enable it to live according to your plan. May we always praise you for all your beauty in creation. Blessed are you, Lord our God, in all your creatures! Amen.”

 

If so many people believe animals don't go to heaven, I wonder if St. Francis is worried about his job?

 

 

 

 

[Guest D_MansMommy]

I'll start by saying I know I'll see my dogs again.

 

As far as scripture, if you believe in the bible, it states death is a separation of spirit and body and that there will be a resurrection, so all will be restored, including animals.

 

I can't wait to talk to them!

 

Yes, I believe the spirits go to heaven. All spirits We will all be reunited with our loved ones (both human and pets) Just my beliefs of course.

[Guest RooCroo]

I wrote an essay once that had this question in it. I am not a theologian and I'm sure there are many arguments that could be given against this, but it is what my heart tells me:

 

"Animals are sinless. They don't need help to get into Heaven. People do. So the next time you are wondering if you'll see your pets in Heaven, maybe you should instead be wondering if THEY will be seeing YOU there!"

 

The idea that humans are somehow better and more worthy of Heaven than other creatures is, in my opinion, arrogant. We all have our place in the Great Plan, and just because we are at the top of the food chain doesn't mean other creatures have less importance in the grand scheme of things. I just don't see God as anthropocentric!

 

OK...can of worms opened... but that's just my opinion.

 

(Here's a link to the whole piece, in case you are interested)

http://myweb.cableone.net/john505/august04.html

Edited January 16, 2009 by RooCroo

[GreyhoundNan]

The idea that humans are somehow better and more worthy of Heaven than other creatures is, in my opinion, arrogant. We all have our place in the Great Plan, and just because we are at the top of the food chain doesn't mean other creatures have less importance in the grand scheme of things. I just don't see God as anthropocentric!

 

Several things have jumped out at me in this thread. My disclaimer is that I am the daughter of a slightly conservative leaning United Methodist Minister, am an occasionally practising UM, and am married to a Catholic (European, not American...I'm learning that there are differences...).

 

1. Love what you said about arrogance. To me that extends not only to this issue about animals going to heaven, but to any sort of "discussion" concerning religious faith...why is there a picture in the church my father is currently serving of a blonde, blue eyed Jesus? Because as humans we need to make things in our worlds "like us." Doubt that there are many blonde, blue-eyed men in the region where Jesus was born, but I suppose anything is possible. I think it also extends to anything that we, as limited beings, can't understand. God. Faith. The paranormal. Life on other planets. The list goes on and on...

 

2. hvacman said: "My personal belief is God set us apart from animals by giving us His Spirit. Animals dont have to stand before judgement by God one day; humans do. God loves every one of his creations: every person, animal, flower, etc., but humans are in a different class." I'm not sure I follow how this decides that animals aren't granted a place in heaven with us. To me, what you've said is that animals get a free ticket...do not pass go, do not collect $200. Straight past the pearly gates because they don't have anything for which they must answer concerning their "sins" while on earth.

 

3. I am wondering (and will ask DH when he gets out of bed, it was my morning to get up and feed the critters) if Benedict has "taken back" or otherwise quashed that statement from JPII on animals and souls. From my understanding as an outsider (who has a father, a sister, and a brother in law who are UM ministers and talk theology NON STOP at family get togethers) he has taken the Church in a "different direction" from the one lead by JPII...wonder if this has gone that way as well? Something subtle that has perhaps filtered down to the level of what is taught in parochial schools? DH has said before that he was never taught anything one way or the other on the subject and he went to a Catholic school (in the UK) growing up.

 

While I was typing this, Daisy just came up and nudged me. I took her nose in my hand and looked her in the eye. Anyone that can do that and tell me that you don't see a soul there...well...I'd be asking what you're looking at because it certainly isn't into my perfect puppy girl's eyes. When I was a little girl I remember my father telling me on several occasions when family pets died that I should be comforted to know that they have gone on to wait for me with Jesus...and I still believe that there is an afterlife and that is where all those animals I had growing up as well as Zooey, Franny, BoBo, Lizzard, and Profile have gone to wait for me. YMMV.

Edited January 16, 2009 by NanLassiter

[Gryffenne]

...why is there a picture in the church my father is currently serving of a blonde, blue eyed Jesus? Because as humans we need to make things in our worlds "like us." Doubt that there are many blonde, blue-eyed men in the region where Jesus was born, but I suppose anything is possible.

I remember asking this as a child in CCD and almost getting kicked out of class.

 

Add to the pile of reasons why I love Dogma, by Kevin Smith so much

 

[Guest RooCroo]

"3. I am wondering (and will ask DH when he gets out of bed, it was my morning to get up and feed the critters) if Benedict has "taken back" or otherwise quashed that statement from JPII on animals and souls."

 

This bugs me, and has since I was a little child. Does the fact that a religious leader says something suddenly make it true???? Seems to me God has the final word upon the subject, and nothing a Pope or preacher says to "take it back" or "revise it" will change the truth.

 

I know what I believe, though I will find out someday if I am right or not! We can debate it until we are bloo in the face, but it won't change what is!

Edited January 17, 2009 by RooCroo

[Guest mybabies3]

Do Animals Have Souls?

by Stacy Mantle

 

 

I was talking with a coworker the other day and he informed me that animals do not have emotions. This is just after he told me (the day that I put my dog of 17yrs down) that animals do not have souls and therefore will never enjoy the concept of heaven. Now, this coworker has the disadvantage of being, what I refer to, as a "bible-thumper." He is, in fact, a born-again Christian. Please bear in mind that I have nothing against Christians, nor do I have anything against religion in general. I do, however, have a problem with this coworker passing along faulty information.

 

Animals do have emotions and they also have souls, and I'll tell you how I know that. In over twenty years of working with animals, I have never seen a kitten duct-tape a live human baby to a freeway. I also have never seen a cat find enjoyment from setting a human on fire. I've never gone hiking in the desert to find a child that dogs have left tied to a stake, without food and water, subjecting it to a painful death in the desert heat. I have never seen a chicken force two unwilling humans to fight in a ring with razor blades attached to their feet while the chickens place bets on who will be the first to die. I haven't seen a puppy place eight children in a gunnysack and drown them in a river. Neither have I seen an eagle aim a shotgun at an unarmed human. I have yet to see a bear kill a human simply to place a head on the wall of their cave. And to this day, I have not seen a pigeon drive a car down the road and aim for humans who were walking around the park.

 

Let me tell you what I have seen. I have seen my own cats sleep next to me so they may keep me a little warmer while I was ill. I've seen my dogs play games with me just to force a smile to my face. I have seen a cat rush into a burning home not once, not twice, but six times to save her kittens, nearly losing her own life in the process. I have seen a ferret pull a frightened kitten out of a deep hole in the ground. I have seen a coyote fetch another dog so that it may get the proper medical care that it needs. I've seen a dog, who loves to jump on people, avoid jumping on me when I injured my back. I've seen elephants cry. I've seen monkeys scream in empathy when one of their own were injured. I've seen puppies whine all night long when they were separated from their mothers. I've seen a dog pull a child away from a fire.

 

These are only a few of the things that I've seen. To list them all would take a lifetime, and I think you get my point. As for the soul thing? Well, it is my humble opinion that if you have emotions, any kind of emotions, then you have a soul. Ironically, the pope of the Roman Catholic Church recently stated that he feels the same way.

 

Now, I can't prove that animals have souls. But then, I can't prove that you or I have one either. And for all those people who firmly believe that animals don't have souls - well, I suppose if there really is a heaven, you'll probably have the job of cleaning out all the litter boxes...

 

 

[Guest goodtimekid]

I too am a christian, but my belief is and I state again my belief is that God said that when we do get to heaven that we will have all the things we loved on earth. Animals were created especially dogs and cats not for sustenance, but for companionship and to love. No one can tell me that our animals don't have souls. Just look into their eyes. The eyes are the windows of our soul. Quite frankly I think it's easier to see the souls of our animals than some people. Just having had to help one of my beloved to the bridge on Thurday it makes me feel a little better knowing that I will see him again. Again My personal opinion.

 

[Sirocco_Nikki]

Practicing Catholic. Attended Catholic schools from kindergarten through college. My experience has been that some teachers will present their beliefs as Bible-truth, whether or not they agree with official doctrine. Some say creationism. Some say God created the evolutionary process. Some say pro-life only = anti-abortion. Some say pro-life = all life. The list goes on and on......

 

I believe that dogs go to heaven. Why? I know a priest who suffered a major heart attack. When he was brought back, he said that his childhood dog was there to greet him when his heart stopped. I've heard of others who had the same experience. Faith doesn't always have to be logical or provable.

[Guest Ruby2sday]

Tami ~ Take Angel's face in your hands and look into her beautiful eyes. Do the same with Sunscreen Man. Look deeply and you will see their souls. Then try to believe that there are no animals in heaven. I think you will have your answer.

 

Yvonne

[PatricksMom]

I'm glad to have stumbled into such a respectful conversation on a hard topic.

 

To the original poster, I'm glad you're talking to your son about this question, and that the teacher aproached the question from an open position--I think it was cruel of my parents' church to categorically state that my dog would not be going to heaven.

 

To my personal beliefs, raised Reformed Presbyterian, spent some time as a Methodist, currently identify as a Quaker in the Christian Tradition:

 

I don't know what exactly the afterlife will look like, or in what form we'll meet again, or whether it will be in anyway physical, but I do believe that all of my animals will be there in the same way I am, whatever way that will be, and that those who have already died are now without pain.

 

A GTer (sorry, can't remember who) has written before about her family's practice of sending all of their pets that have died to "go find Grandpa"--a man who loved animals and is now probably surrounded with them. I love that notion, whether it's literally or metaphorically true, and have really seized it since my Grandfather, a great lover of animals, died this summer. I'm sure he and my childhood dog Pippin have derived great comfort from meeting again, as well as the many dogs he loved throughout his life. If the person whose family I'm writing about is reading, I hope you don't mind, and thank you.

[Guest ArtysPeople]

So, I just want to throw this out there, since this thread has ventured into the realm of the many things that people believe, instead of the original question, which was what does the Catholic church teach . . .

 

I don't believe in the existence of a soul. Humans have very, very impressive brains that make us feel all sorts of things (including the perceived presence of god and souls) but I have never seen evidence to convince me that any of us -- animal, dog, human, plant, whatever -- has some supernatural thing in us called a "soul".

[Guest RooCroo]

Practicing Catholic. Attended Catholic schools from kindergarten through college. My experience has been that some teachers will present their beliefs as Bible-truth, whether or not they agree with official doctrine. Some say creationism. Some say God created the evolutionary process. Some say pro-life only = anti-abortion. Some say pro-life = all life. The list goes on and on......

 

I believe that dogs go to heaven. Why? I know a priest who suffered a major heart attack. When he was brought back, he said that his childhood dog was there to greet him when his heart stopped. I've heard of others who had the same experience. Faith doesn't always have to be logical or provable.

 

 

Good point. If it was provable, it would defeat the purpose of Faith, wouldn't it?

 

but I have never seen evidence to convince me that any of us -- animal, dog, human, plant, whatever -- has some supernatural thing in us called a "soul".

 

I don't think souls are supernatural -- I think they are, well, natural! An integral part of every living thing that is no longer attached to the body when it dies. Personally, I believe (because of some intense personal experiences that need not be detailed here) that life force goes on after the body dies. As I said before, when my time comes, I will find out for sure!

[Guest jerrybird]

I have been following this thread and quite honestly, am surprised (shouldn't be I know!) by the eloquence of so many forum members. It's wonderful to read this thread with no expressed rudeness or insult. Some of us are worlds apart in creed and theory but we all definately respect each others opinion.

[Forevermybabies]

Thank you again everyone for expressing your opinion. I've had a lot of experiences which lead me, personally, to believe that there is "an unknown country from whose bourn no traveler doth ever return." I don't completely understand the concept of "soul," nor I think do I have a truly abiding faith in anything. I look forward to finding out some day! (Or not finding out, but I'll be dead and it won't matter.)

 

I talk to my dear departed friends, relatives, and animals. Whether they can hear me or not, I don't know. But I do that for me. Because I am the one left behind. Because I am the one who needs to deal with my grief.

 

I had an experience when I was younger that also led me to believe that there is something that holds people (and maybe animals) to those that they left behind, a responsibility or longing, that needs to be discharged before they can get on to their "other duty." I don't know what that other thing is, but my experience is that there is something.

 

I've also enjoyed hearing everyone's beliefs. I find it fascinating how humans have come to find ways to "cope" or "understand" their condition. So much is unknowable, but we believe things. It helps us to survive not being able to understand things, I think. I think it is human to be uncomfortable with things that can't be understood, and comforting to form a system of beliefs that does make sense to us.

 

 

[PatricksMom]

Instead of soul, I prefer the term essence--not something supernaturally given by God, but something that is the core of our being. I'm not sure what it is exactly, but I know that my animals have them too, its not something that makes us better than they are.

[Guest HoustonGreys]

I'm not a religious person. Spiritual, but not religious. I haven't raised my kids in a religion or church. (For better or worse.)

 

My younger son, however, now attends a private Catholic school (for academic reasons.) And one of the classes is to learn about Catholicism, obviously. Well, anyway, he's upset and confused because of the belief that animals do not have souls, and don't go to heaven. I told him that personally, I can't believe that God would make a creature who is perfect love, and not endow them with what we think of as a "soul." And if there are no dogs in heaven, I don't want to go.

 

So he thought, well, maybe animals go to a separate heaven and we can visit. I don't like that, either.

 

I have no idea what REALLY happens (who does), but I don't like this idea that people have an afterlife and animals just die.

 

Can someone explain to me the biblical basis for this Catholic belief that animals have no souls and don't go to heaven? (Assuming there's a heaven.) Where does it say this in the bible?

I didn't read all the replies but I grew up Baptist and always heard that because animals have no souls they can't go to Heaven. BUT one of my youth group leaders pointed out that it does say in the Bible that "the lamb and the lion will lie down together" and where else will that happen except Heaven??? I loved that she said that and that made me quit worrying about it. I should have taken the time to look up the scripture but it's late and I'm trying to get to bed but if you want me to find it you can pm me and I will do that!

I know I'm seeing my pups again!