Poll: Love Or Hate Cesar Millan

[Guest MonsterMomma]

I like the show, and I like Cesar. His methods are somewhat similar to mine, but there's not a complete overlap. I'm more from the Brian Kilcommons school of dog training. Never met a dog I couldn't train, and I specifically request the ones no one else wants to deal with.

[Guest Giselle]

I'm sure almost everybody knows my stance on this already, but let me just clarify this: Being the LEADER to your dog does not mean you must physically dominate him nor must you use constant physical corrections to "assert your alphahood".

[Guest RedBrindleBoy]

In a nutshell: His training consists of setting dogs up so they will fail, and he can CORRECT them, instead of setting them up to succeed and PRAISING them.

[Guest Hokiebuck]

I'm sure almost everybody knows my stance on this already, but let me just clarify this: Being the LEADER to your dog does not mean you must physically dominate him nor must you use constant physical corrections to "assert your alphahood".

 

From what I have seen, the physical domination is used in extreme cases. He also doesn't use "constant physical correction" what he usually does is start with a snap of the fingers, or the "shhhhttttt" sound and if they don't get the message he'll use his leash or hand. Again, its not to "assert alphahood" its used as a distraction, to revert their attention from the stimulus that is making them unbalanced. Also, I am curious as to why you put assert your alphahood in quotes? Has he used that phrase? I haven't heard him say that before. And yes I believe you have to consistently display your leadership. Dogs will constantly re-evaluate the pack, and if they see the leader not being a leader anymore, they'll try to fill that role.

 

In a nutshell: His training consists of setting dogs up so they will fail, and he can CORRECT them, instead of setting them up to succeed and PRAISING them.

 

 

How is he setting them up for failure? These are dogs with problem behaviors and how are you going to correct the behavior without seeing the dog do it?

[Batmom]

In a nutshell: His training consists of setting dogs up so they will fail, and he can CORRECT them, instead of setting them up to succeed and PRAISING them.

 

 

How is he setting them up for failure? These are dogs with problem behaviors and how are you going to correct the behavior without seeing the dog do it?

 

Read the AVSAB paper linked by Gemma above. Here's the link again, for those who missed it: http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

 

[SilversMom]

I like Cesar. He has made me think about the behavior of not only mt pack, but also the other dogs in the neighborhood. As far as rollerblading with Greys, lets contact him and offer him a few of our big boys so he can see what a real "ride" is like. Not really but it is funny to think of.

[Guest greytpets]

i cant stand these shows full stop. but especially its me or the dog.

[moofie]

I've only seen a couple of his shows while at my dad's as he's got sky. I found it interesting and he managed to correct the dogs in the shows but i didn't really warm to him & his methods, i prefer Victoria Stillwell's show.

 

We also have Dog Borstalwhich is a doggy bootcamp which is entertaining as they usually moan at the owners which are usually to blame for the problems. This episode has a woman with a ball obsessed boxer and walks it on a flexi-lead . I find it is edited to emphasise the tough boot camp image so no doubt cuts a lot of the actual training out.

 

The problem with all these programs is lots of people seem to try and copy what they have seen on the show rather than be spured on to find out more about the training method and how to do it properly.

[Guest Gemma]

I'm sure almost everybody knows my stance on this already, but let me just clarify this: Being the LEADER to your dog does not mean you must physically dominate him nor must you use constant physical corrections to "assert your alphahood".

 

From what I have seen, the physical domination is used in extreme cases. He also doesn't use "constant physical correction" what he usually does is start with a snap of the fingers, or the "shhhhttttt" sound and if they don't get the message he'll use his leash or hand. Again, its not to "assert alphahood" its used as a distraction, to revert their attention from the stimulus that is making them unbalanced. Also, I am curious as to why you put assert your alphahood in quotes? Has he used that phrase? I haven't heard him say that before. And yes I believe you have to consistently display your leadership. Dogs will constantly re-evaluate the pack, and if they see the leader not being a leader anymore, they'll try to fill that role.

 

In a nutshell: His training consists of setting dogs up so they will fail, and he can CORRECT them, instead of setting them up to succeed and PRAISING them.

 

 

How is he setting them up for failure? These are dogs with problem behaviors and how are you going to correct the behavior without seeing the dog do it?

 

 

"Physical domination" is more than actually grabbing or restraining the dog. Like when he took the dog that was terrified of tile floors and dragged him across it, until the poor thing was in full panic mode: salivating, glassy eyed, panting, crouched, etc. When the dog from sheer necessity managed to get onto the carpet, he was proclaimed 'cured'. Instead, he'd just learned a valuable lesson: the tile floor really is scary!! Another example is the dog he hauled up using a choke chain until it was clearly restricting its breathing. As others have mentioned in posts to this forum, when you correct behaviour like growling, you're teaching the dog not to growl; you are not teaching the dog to deal with whatever is making him/her feel the need to growl. This is basically all that CM does. He stops dogs from reacting but because he's not dealing with the psychology behind those reactions, the problems will occur again when he leaves.

 

CM doesn't need to use the word 'alpha' because he uses the word 'leader' to mean the same thing. All his talk about dogs wanting to take over the pack, and you needing to dominate them to prove your leadership, that's all based on dominance theory. In the link I supplied, you'll find a very thorough and educated explanation for why this has been debunked in recent years.

 

I have seen episodes where CM has genuinely helped, usually for less extreme cases, but I've also seen episodes where the 'cured' dog is left panting and crouched low in classic stress postures. That isn't a 'happy submissive' dog, that's a scared dog. Considering that positive reinforcement really does work, why not use that method? It seems so much more ethical to me.

 

Also, let's not forget that there's a disclaimer on his show now not to try the methods at home without a trainer! Shows that teach positive reinforcement don't legally require warnings like that.

[Guest KennelMom]

I like him. I also like other behaviorists.

 

I think CM is spot on with a lot of what he says. I've spent a lot of time watching and living in a pack...he understands how dogs think and is able to influence people to see that they are the problem, not the dog. Don't agree with everything 100%, but he gets results for dogs that other trainers said needed to be put down. There have been follow up shows, months and years after. Following his advice of treating a dog like a dog. Providing leadership with clear, consistent and fair rules, boundaries and limitations. Practicing exercise, discipline, affection to the degree that the dog's personality needs it. These are things that keep dogs balanced and happy even after the filming stops.

 

I think any trainer or behaviorists who subscribes to ONLY one method (i.e. positive reinforcement only) does not really understand dogs. I'd be extremely wary of any advice they offered up. The same approach does not work for all dogs, behaviors or situations.

[Guest artemiss]

I like a lot, maybe not all, but most of what he pushes.

 

Too many people treat their dogs like little people in furcoats, and dogs don't think like that...they are still dogs.

 

Too many people get dogs and don't realize that they need things like walks, and playtime and boudaries...and that is the biggest thing I see these folks on his show doing wrong. Or the do things like praising undesirable behaviours, or being inconsistent and wondering why their dogs are nutso- DUH!!!

 

I also like how he brought a positive image of pit bulls into American homes. The media has brainwashed peole into thinking they are mindless killers, when in reality, most of them are just victims of stupid owners. I like how he always pushes the "dogs first, breeds second" school of thought. And Daddy..*swoon*. )It breaks my heart to think he isn't going to be on the show anymore, and that he'll be going to bridge soon ) That part alone is reason to admire him.

 

 

And they did an aniversery show that brought back the dogs, and showed how they are doing..if I recall the vast majority of them were still doing great.

 

 

 

I think any trainer or behaviorists who subscribes to ONLY one method (i.e. positive reinforcement only) does not really understand dogs. I'd be extremely wary of any advice they offered up. The same approach does not work for all dogs, behaviors or situations.

 

 

Very good point. And I have seen him start out trying one thing, and change gears when he sees that the dog isn't responding.

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

Ah, Cesar.

 

Leaving any controversial statements behind, I'd like to add that he seems to treat dogs entirely and consistently like wolves. While dogs have strikingly similar qualities to wolves (they evolved from them, after all) dogs have evolved with humans and therefore are slightly different than wolves in many key points--i.e. their relationships with humans. The dogs we keep as pets are not wild animals. They should not be treated as anything they are not: human or wolf.

 

Two cents ended.

 

Small edit: I entirely and wholeheartedly agree with his exercise mentality and getting them out from four walls. I've been home all day and I'm going *nuts*, I can't imagine how pooches who never get out must feel.

Edited December 13, 2008 by BLIsStillFlying

[Guest tatahills]

Cesar is the man!

 

 

[Guest Winterwish]

One of the biggest issues for me is that the results of his TV show is that I see many dogs in my neighborhood having their leash snapped with a sh sound for no darn reason whatsoever.The dog can simply be sniffing a tree for pete's sake. There's something wrong with that,and that's that.

 

Is this a direct result of that TV show? Yes. Is cm at fault for that? Well I believe,in the end,yes. When this is happening fairly routinely and with different people and dogs,that's a problem imo. If there's a benefit somewhere in all this,no question,something's been lost in the translation,no matter the protective disclaimer.

 

Whenever people boast as sort of 'proof' of either cm's ways,or training based on the notion of alpha-ness -- "oh but I did this with my dog and it worked! Look,couple months later and look at how he walks with me!",etc.  -- I think to myself,well the dogs and their persons I know have reached the same or much better results and did not meet their dog with the alpha business set in their mind,but used positive training techniques where it was important.

 

It also seems like there's more then a little ego tripping,either just as a quality in them in general,or with their dog specifically, in some of the people I know who like,or in their words "love" him. 

 

 

Edited January 17, 2009 by Winterwish

[Guest BLIsStillFlying]

CM has been discussed many times over and you can probably find a plethora of CM topics if you search here

 

He's a polarizing figure, that's all I'm going to say.

 

As for the manner in which he treats dogs, I will only say that I prefer to put my trust in psychological principles versus the highly controversial "dominance theory".

 

I agree.

 

 

One of the biggest issues for me is that the results of his TV show is that I see many dogs in my neighborhood having their leash snapped with a sh sound for no darn reason whatsoever.The dog can simply be sniffing a tree for pete's sake. There's something wrong with that,and that's that.

 

Is this a direct result of that TV show? Yes. Is cm at fault for that? Well I believe,in the end,yes. When this is happening fairly routinely and with different people and dogs,that's a problem imo. If there's a benefit somewhere in all this,no question,something's been lost in the translation,no matter the protective disclaimer.

 

Whenever people boast as sort of 'proof' of either cm's ways,or training based on the notion of alpha-ness -- "oh but I did this with my dog and it worked! Look,couple months later and look at how he walks with me!",etc. -- I think to myself,well the dogs and their persons I know have reached the same or much better results and did not meet their dog with the alpha business set in their mind,but used positive training techniques where it was important.

 

It also seems like there's more then a little ego tripping,either just as a quality in them in general,or with their dog specifically, in some of the people I know who like,or in their words "love" him.

 

 

 

 

Seconded.

[Guest Hokiebuck]

CM has been discussed many times over and you can probably find a plethora of CM topics if you search here

 

He's a polarizing figure, that's all I'm going to say.

 

As for the manner in which he treats dogs, I will only say that I prefer to put my trust in psychological principles versus the highly controversial "dominance theory".

 

I agree.

 

 

One of the biggest issues for me is that the results of his TV show is that I see many dogs in my neighborhood having their leash snapped with a sh sound for no darn reason whatsoever.The dog can simply be sniffing a tree for pete's sake. There's something wrong with that,and that's that.

 

Is this a direct result of that TV show? Yes. Is cm at fault for that? Well I believe,in the end,yes. When this is happening fairly routinely and with different people and dogs,that's a problem imo. If there's a benefit somewhere in all this,no question,something's been lost in the translation,no matter the protective disclaimer.

 

Whenever people boast as sort of 'proof' of either cm's ways,or training based on the notion of alpha-ness -- "oh but I did this with my dog and it worked! Look,couple months later and look at how he walks with me!",etc.  -- I think to myself,well the dogs and their persons I know have reached the same or much better results and did not meet their dog with the alpha business set in their mind,but used positive training techniques where it was important.

 

It also seems like there's more then a little ego tripping,either just as a quality in them in general,or with their dog specifically, in some of the people I know who like,or in their words "love" him. 

 

 

 

Whats wrong with snapping the leash if you don't want your dog to sniff something? I dictate when we are walking and when we are just casually strolling. If I say "free" then my dog knows its ok to roam around etc. If I am on a walk or run and don't want to stop at every tree, then that is what we are going to do. You are not breaking your dog's heart by not letting them sniff a tree. The snap or "shhhttt" is just an attention getter, its not suppose to be a forceful action. I have see Victoria Stillwell use the same thing. She uses it when she is trying to train a dog that gets too excited with other dogs or people. She makes a high pitched "this way" or some other noise I don't know how to type, and switches direction.

 

I am not sure what you mean by ego tripping? By him or the people you see use his techniques. Now you are associating/blaming people's personalities on CM? Is what you call ego simply pride in changing their dog's behavior? I see the same thing from people that just completed an obedience course.

[Brindles]

I love Cesar. I'm not as hardcore about controlling my dogs' behavior as he teaches, and I don't do the "Tssst" thing, but I think he's fantastic. I really do. Ford gave me a lot of problems in the beginning that the GT community couldn't help me with, but Cesar's methods helped us out immensely. All of my dogs behave so much better now than they used to.

 

I'm a very down-to-earth person, and his "mother nature" approach appeals to me greatly. I've tried his methods, I've seen the benefit in my own dogs, and I've felt my self efficacy grow. It's really amazing what it can do.

 

A lot of you seem very skeptical about the whole rollerblading thing, but it can be done! And with any dog! I got the idea from Cesar, but my version is a little different. I don't let my dogs set the pace like he does (for obvious reasons). I've taught mine not to go any faster than I go, and they know to stop when they feel tension on the leash.

 

 

 

It took a while to do. I made sure they would each behave while walking and then behave while jogging. Once they could, I moved from one dog at a time to two, from two dogs to three, etc.

 

Like I said in the other thread, please don't be so quick to judge. Successfully rollerblading with four big dogs is one of the best confidence boosters you can get! You never know until you try.

[gazehund]

Never saw the show and don't particularly want to. Not anything to do with Mr. Milan, I know nothing about him. I just don't watch a lot of TV of any kind.

[Guest Giselle]

CM has been discussed many times over and you can probably find a plethora of CM topics if you search here

 

He's a polarizing figure, that's all I'm going to say.

 

As for the manner in which he treats dogs, I will only say that I prefer to put my trust in psychological principles versus the highly controversial "dominance theory".

 

I agree.

 

 

One of the biggest issues for me is that the results of his TV show is that I see many dogs in my neighborhood having their leash snapped with a sh sound for no darn reason whatsoever.The dog can simply be sniffing a tree for pete's sake. There's something wrong with that,and that's that.

 

Is this a direct result of that TV show? Yes. Is cm at fault for that? Well I believe,in the end,yes. When this is happening fairly routinely and with different people and dogs,that's a problem imo. If there's a benefit somewhere in all this,no question,something's been lost in the translation,no matter the protective disclaimer.

 

Whenever people boast as sort of 'proof' of either cm's ways,or training based on the notion of alpha-ness -- "oh but I did this with my dog and it worked! Look,couple months later and look at how he walks with me!",etc.  -- I think to myself,well the dogs and their persons I know have reached the same or much better results and did not meet their dog with the alpha business set in their mind,but used positive training techniques where it was important.

 

It also seems like there's more then a little ego tripping,either just as a quality in them in general,or with their dog specifically, in some of the people I know who like,or in their words "love" him. 

 

 

 

Whats wrong with snapping the leash if you don't want your dog to sniff something?

Why snap the leash when you can tell him "leave it"?

 

Leave it: setting up the dog to succeed by rewarding him for ignoring an object on his own accord = positive reinforcement = provide a reward so that the behavior (ignoring and focusing on you) will increase.

 

Snapping the leash: setting up the dog to fail by correcting him everytime he performs the bad behavior (in this case, sniffing an undesirable object) = positive punishment = utilizing an aversive stimulus to decrease a behavior (sniffing the undesirable object).

 

Both methods have the same end result. But which is better? Your prerogative. Personally, I'd rather my dog learn to "leave it" than snap the leash.

[Guest Gemma]

Both methods have the same end result. But which is better? Your prerogative. Personally, I'd rather my dog learn to "leave it" than snap the leash.

 

Teaching something like 'leave it' also has the benefit of working off leash. If you proof the behaviour/command, you end up with a dog that will immediately stop what it is doing when it hears the command. If you leash snap, you can't control the same behaviour when off leash. We taught our boy "uh uh", which is a general "don't do that" command, and now we have a dog that listens on and off leash. Really invaluable, IMO.

[Guest Hokiebuck]

Both methods have the same end result. But which is better? Your prerogative. Personally, I'd rather my dog learn to "leave it" than snap the leash.

 

Teaching something like 'leave it' also has the benefit of working off leash. If you proof the behaviour/command, you end up with a dog that will immediately stop what it is doing when it hears the command. If you leash snap, you can't control the same behaviour when off leash. We taught our boy "uh uh", which is a general "don't do that" command, and now we have a dog that listens on and off leash. Really invaluable, IMO.

 

 

I am not sure how others have taught "leave it" but I started with leash snaps, with the words, then evenutally leave it itself is sufficient. The snaps are not meant to be a punishment. They shouldn't be hard snaps, just the equivalent of someone tapping you on the shoulder. I sometimes still need to leash snap if he is REALLY interested in something. But most times I can call him off from a distance of 30+ yards away.

[Guest Giselle]

Positive reinforcement teaching "leave it"

 

- Hold a treat out of the dog's grasp. As soon as dog backs off from the treat, click/reward. Repeat.

- Eventually, if you drop the treat within the dog's grasp, the dog learns to ignore the treat on the ground because he's waiting for you to reward him.

 

The treat becomes extrinsically rewarded; ergo, the behavior of ignoring the treat becomes more valuable than the treat itself. In other words, the dog learns self-discipline - all without the use of force or leash snaps.

[Guest karma98104]

I think his methods are fantastic, and he's done a great job of training the public.. he's got a great thing going on. I use his methods OFTEN with really good success on dogs that I walk and pet sit for. but...

 

I think he's a cocky arrogant little sell out.

 

[Guest RedBrindleBoy]

Positive reinforcement teaching "leave it"

 

- Hold a treat out of the dog's grasp. As soon as dog backs off from the treat, click/reward. Repeat.

- Eventually, if you drop the treat within the dog's grasp, the dog learns to ignore the treat on the ground because he's waiting for you to reward him.

 

The treat becomes extrinsically rewarded; ergo, the behavior of ignoring the treat becomes more valuable than the treat itself. In other words, the dog learns self-discipline - all without the use of force or leash snaps.

 

 

:nod

 

You can also drop the treat on the ground, and lightly cover it with your foot if your dog tries to get it. When the dog turns away, click and move your foot away. Same concept... the dog learn self-control WITHOUT LEASH SNAPS.

[Guest FordRacingRon]

He drives me nuts but I checked watch with a grain of salt. His excercise, disipline, affection mantra is pretty spot on but I think any one could come up with that. I think whether you watched his show or not, you've come to realize you were doing that before you saw him preach it,,,but to a clueless owner I think its good advice. I too am hoping more people realze though, buy watching him, you can't throw a dog into the backyard and consider that exercise.