MerlinsMum

Only just seeing this! So glad that everything went well and that Gee is coming home :)

Lots of good thoughts coming your way! :goodluck

You might want to get in touch with Bev (Bevd) :) Linky :yay

I am a bit believer in harnesses. They are safer IMO, and they also don't put pressure on a dog's sensitive neck. I use Premier harnesses for my two, but there are many good harnesses out there. 2Hounds Design makes one that I believe is very popular here, and other vendors make good ones too, including ones specifically for spooks. Hopefully others will chime in with the details

OMG. Lori, that's horrible. I'm so, so sorry Thank you for everyone's continuing comments - so much good advice here, I am reading it and digesting it all and will be composing an email to the mailing list of our group so that everyone gets it. For those who mentioned this - as organizer, I did need to have words with one of our members once, because her dog, who was a sweetie with humans, had aggression issues with the other hounds. Unfortunately it put a damper on the dynamics of the group and none of the other hounds played or ran anymore - as they were sure to be put off by growls and aggression from this one hound. I had to talk to his guardian and suggested she do some behavior conditioning work with her dog. She understood completely when I explained that I couldn't put the other dogs at risk, and she said she'd try and help her grey, but this was quite a while ago and we haven't seen her at playgroup since. I hope she managed to work on her boy's aggression issues. The rules of our group do state that any bullying, aggression, etc will not be tolerated. We also have a "no-children in the enclosure" rule for added safety.

OMG How terrifying! Thank goodness you were home. My two boys never ever wear their collars when they're indoors. About a year and a half ago someone who used to be a member here lost her grey when he was in the yard - his martingale got caught and he strangled to death. She came home to find him just hanging there. I know many people on this board remember the episode Absolutely ghastly. Since then, I make a point of telling everyone I can about it so that they can take precautions - either leave their dogs naked in the house or use a loose tag collar or breakaway collar.

Oh, he's gotten a LOT of smooches today :blush but I'm going to give him another one from you, Susan! Thanks for the advice. I'm definitely going to encourage people to move around the field more and keep an eye on their dogs and general pack dynamics constantly while they're at playgroup. I love Lori's idea and I think it will make it a lot less stressful for the less competitive hounds. Absolutely. Every new member of our playgroup must read the rules of the group and sign a waiver. Our rules specifically mandate that all members of the group share responsibility for checking the all fences/gates are secure, keep an eye on their dogs at all times, etc. But you're right, people forget about this stuff. I think I just need to remind people of how important that is, today was certainly a wake-up call.

Thank you for your feedback, Toni. Seriously, I'm really glad to hear this. I thought it was just me Sometimes I really struggle to juggle the different duties I feel I should fulfill as organizer - i.e. being welcoming and catching up with people while simultaneously keeping an eye on the hounds at all times, to make sure that they are playing well together, their muzzles are secure, no trouble is brewing - and that, you know, they're not eating poop It's really hard sometimes, because I know that people like to chat, but personally I would be content with not getting into big long conversations, but just standing there and watching the dogs, maybe running with them, and I'd much prefer it if we all focused on the dogs at all times. When I had just Merlin we sometimes used to take him to the dog park (when I think back to those days I seriously cringe sometimes) and I stopped going after (a) I was bitten by a dog and (b ) I realized that people just weren't interested in participating in the experience with their dogs - they were just bringing them to the dog park so that they didn't have to walk them They would arrive with a Dunkin Donuts coffee in one hand and a muffin in another and just stand there or sit on the benches and chat. They would pay no attention WHATSOEVER to what their dogs were doing, and when someone complained about their dogs, they would feebly and half-heartedly call their dog. If it worked, great, if not they went back to chatting. Finally I grew exasperated and stopped going because I was worried that something serious would happen soon. I REALLY don't want playgroup to become like that. I did not set it up as a chat club for greyhound enthusiasts to socialize. It's primarily an opportunity for greyhounds to run together and socialize, and of course it's nice to catch up with other greyhound folks and I enjoy that aspect of it, but it's not my main concern and it certainly isn't why I set up the group. I remember the incident you mentioned and I have often wondered why people are so slow or inattentive sometimes. We need to pay more attention, ALL of us, to what's going on, and I get frustrated sometimes because I feel that it's kind of left to me to supervise or to make sure the enclosure is secure, etc. I'll draft an email to the group. I hope you will consider coming back to playgroup with the girls soon. I also want people to feel comfortable mentioning this sort of thing to everyone. We should can and should make more use of the mailing list. Thanks again

Let's not go there... DH says I am partly to blame for Merlin's a sense of entitlement and I think he may have a point. He pointed out some instances in which I act like Merlin can do no wrong (because he's my wizardy boy and I am crazy about him), and I think he may be right. And there are other things... if Merlin is cold in the night, he'll come to me and just stare at me, and I'll somehow wake up and get up and tuck him in. If he wants to get on the couch, all he has to do is come and stand there and look at me (he has this way of opening his eyes wide and looking slightly confused, as if to say "Er... did you not get that memo...? You seem to be in my spot ) and guess what Sucker of the Year does? Yup. I think it's time to go back to basics with Merlin and implement some good old fashioned NILIF again. For those who mentioned the "wheelbarrow" method of stopping a fight - thanks so much, I would never have thought of that. Just one question - don't I risk causing some damage to their legs by doing this? But I'm assuming the point is to apply just enough pressure to throw them off balance? Right?

Thank you all - GREAT advice. I'm glad you all posted these comments, because at one point I almost thought that maybe people at playgroup thought I was overreacting. I know that as an organizer I am more apprehensive than others about safety, etc, but first of all, that's my "job" as organizer, and secondly, I really don't think some people realized how badly it could have ended. I wish more people became familiar with their dogs' body language, because if they did, this sort of thing would be less common, I think - people would be more savvy about what to look out for, and quicker at recognizing the initial signs of potential problems. For those who weren't sure - the muzzles are absolutely, 100% MANDATORY at the playgroup I organize. And when I say mandatory, I mean that any dog who turns up without a muzzle simply doesn't get to run, NO exceptions EVER (it's happened several times that people have turned up and had forgotten their hounds' muzzles... so I bought several spares ones and keep them in the car at all times, to lend them to people on such occasions.) Lori, what a GREAT idea! I am definitely going to talk to the group about implementing it here too. We may just end up having two groups rather than four, as we have very few seniors at this time and although we have a lot of members, it ends up being the same group of people, give or take, at most play dates - it's always the same dogs who run and act very competitive, or try to control the situation. That's why I agree that reducing the number of dogs is good but not enough. Identifying personality types is just as important, if not more important. Doing both is ideal. Thanks ^^ This. And in fact that's exactly what happened today. I agree with every single word of this. I had seen some potentially bad situations, that I broke up immediately, but never this. It's really terrifying. You know, everything is fine one minute, and then you see THAT and you just go on auto-pilot because you just KNOW in your gut that if you don't intervene there are going to be emergency-vet visits involved. Pat,l I am so glad I wasn't alone in yelling at other people in this kind of situation I think you're right, people just freeze, and my eyes were so focused on the dogs that mentally the group members were just a blur in the back of my mind and I took their stillness as a sign of complacency - but it was probably fright.

Sagan is my shadow, he follows me everywhere. He is submissive and can be very shy or fearful with other breeds and new people, although he's made much progress in the nearly 2 years since we brought him home. I like take him to playgroup, among other things, to socialize more with other hounds. Mostly, he tends not to run with the others. However, sometimes he will take off with a little encouragement from mum, and then he's usually running ahead of the rest with the help of his long, long legs. Today at playgroup I encouraged him to run with me, and then he took off - and sure enough the other hounds immediately followed. Except a couple of toes got stomped on in the process - what with everyone crowding each other - and the aggression started. Merlin was one of the dogs who went for him He can be a real bully with Sagan sometimes. But it just went on and on and the more I ran to stop them, the more I realized that it not going to just fizzle out. I know many of you know exactly what I'm referring to... when competitiveness is coupled with misplaced aggression and dominant personalities, and there is high speed running involved - the results can be awful. And who is often the first dog to bear the brunt of all this? The submissive one He kept trying to outrun them all, but eventually he got to a fence and he was stuck right in the middle of what had by now become a gang of houndies bullying him and caging him in. I ran and ran but they were so fast that I couldn't catch up with them. A couple of other people helped but most of the playgroup members just STOOD there, which really upset me. I confess to losing my patience and raising my voice at them to not just stand there but to help me stop it... I don't understand for the life of me why people do this. Are they scared they're going to get hurt? It was obvious that the intensity of the situation was just going to keep escalating. If we hadn't intervened in the end it could have ended very badly. Anyway, finally I managed to grab one of the more persistent and bullying houndies. Someone else grabbed Merlin, and someone grabbed the third troublemaker. Of course at that point the rest of the hounds dispersed immediately, and I ran to Sagan to check him over. He did have missing fur and superficial wounds in two places, and he was trembling with his tail firmly stuck between his legs, poor baby, but on the whole he was INCREDIBLY lucky. I seriously thought that the situation was going to end very, very badly with multiple and serious injuries for many of the dogs. When I caught my breath and we all calmed our dogs down, the first thing I said to everyone was "... and THAT is why I made muzzles compulsory at playgroup" (in the early days of our playgroup some members had objected to the use of muzzles). But I do berate myself for giving in to some people's objections, in recent months, about the number of greys allowed at playgroup at one time. With several of us having two hounds, what would happen is that someone would go to RSVP for the play date and find that it was already full. The rules of the group state that no more than 8 hounds can be running in the ballfield at any one time, so play dates fill up very quickly and not everyone gets the chance to participate. I was thinking that maybe we could allow up to ten people but have the greys take turns, so that only 5 greys are allowed to run together at one time? Any suggestions? Has anyone here had this problem at playgroup? I also think our group needs to have a conversation about the dogs with dominant personalities who are more likely to start trouble, so that we can be better prepared if anything kicks off again in the future.

Gosh - poor Spunki That sounds really frightening (for all of you!). I am glad to hear he is doing better. Sending lots of good thoughts for a speedy recovery... :goodluck

Oh no Poor Vinny So... what's the next step? What did the vet say?

Your vet sounds really nice. Let's hope he is right and it's just a pulled muscle. :goodluck Vinny

Sending lots of good thoughts that it's nothing to worry about at all! :goodluck Update when you get back, ok?

I'm so sorry :grouphug

I'm so terribly sorry What a lovely tribute... Apollo was SO incredibly beautiful. The love between you is so clear to see.

Thinking of Vinny today and hoping there is some improvement...? Please check in when you can, Jeannie.

Me too

There are literally no words. I hope you're wrong. :goodluck

Oh, poor Vinny! I have very possible appendage crossed for your beautiful big red boy. Nothing can be wrong with Big Vinny - it's not allowed!! I hope this turns out to be nothing serious or permanent :goodluck :goodluck :goodluck

Welcome from Maine! I'm sorry you lost your grey two years ago I hope you enjoy this site!

I think all of those practices ARE abusive, and in any event, I would not support any small "happy" farm either. I object to the USE itself of non-human animals by humans for pleasure, entertainment or convenience. As for your statement that you'd like to be a dairy cow - does that include the moment in which they use the Rape Rack on you? Separate you from your baby? Send you to the slaughterhouse? Not sure what you can possibly mean by this. For anyone who still thinks that there is such a thing as humane animal husbandry (I know there are a lot of you out there) - this statement was made just a few days ago by a guy who grew up on a family farm. 07/30/2010 I grew up on a family farm, a "humane" farm before we started using the word "humane" as a marketing tool. Please know that when I use the word "humane" here I am trying to make a point, not perpetuate its use. My point is that there is no such thing as "humane" animal farming. Yes, maybe "less cruel", but not "humane." The word "humane" is a cognitive release for those who don't want to believe eating animals means mutilating and killing them (against their will). And it is a financial boon for those profiting off of people trying to do the right thing. On ALL animal farms (all!), we do horrible things to animals including castration (pigs, sheep, cattle, goats), burning off horns (cattle), cutting tails (sheep, pigs), breaking teeth (pigs), notching ears (pigs, cattle, goats) -- this is all "standard". You can picture them in green fields playing to ease your conscience, but you're ignoring a brutal truth (and that we ignore they want to play not die is another story). If you would stand right there while a baby pig is being mutilated by having his tail cut off and testicles cut out, hear his cries, and hear his mother screaming and struggling to get to him to protect him, if you could stand there and somehow pat yourself on your back for being humane... well, something is broken in us. Something is terribly wrong. My life on the farm haunts me. The screams of the animals are still in my head. I have such regrets for all the pain and horror I had a hand in. This is "humane"?! Factory farms are so hellish that we've now come to revere smaller family farms because we want so badly a release from the pain, from the horror. We can't do that to animals, can we? Of course not -- look at all the "humane" farms, we tell ourselves. And it all feels better... for a little while. We lie to ourselves that "the animal I'm eating must somehow have magically missed the mutilations, the broken families, the confinement, the life at the total "mercy" of humans, and the final ultimate cruelty of stealing their life from them. We want to escape the pain, the horror, and I appreciate that. I want to escape it, too. But the animals can never escape it. We control their lives from before they are born until we wipe our butts and consciences of them. If you want to debate strategy, that's important and I appreciate it as I appreciate all efforts to build a more compassionate world. But, please don't call animal farming or meat or dairy "humane." It's a lie. It's a lie. Respectfully and gratefully, Matt Bear Enough said. I added this, btw, because even though it's not specifically on-topic in the sense that it doesn't relate to feeding dogs a vegan diet, it explains the motivation behind such a decision by vegans. I posted it because if there is one thing that frustrated the heck out of me it's not the person who eats meat and doesn't really care, but the person who pretends to her/himself that they can eat the flesh or secretions of an animal in good conscience because the animal was "grass-fed" or reared "humanely" by good people who give their cows names and let their children pet them. That, to me, is psychologically way, way more creepy and messed up than even someone who operates a factory farm. The owner of a factory farm clearly doesn't give a crap, and never pretends to. Those animals are just numbers to him. The owner of the small farm pretends he's compassionate when really he perpetrates the biggest, most horrible betrayal of all - raising a pig in a certain way, getting to know her as an individual, getting to know her babies as individuals with their different personalities, and then turning around and sending them all to a premature death for his own interest. To me, there is no greater betrayal of trust. Of course if he did that to his DOG, people would start threads on dog forums and cry out, incensed at such cruelty and betrayal. But because she is a pig, it's somehow different, when it shouldn't be - a pig is just as sentient as your dog,with just as much right to live her own life free from exploitation.

I don't understand how you can say this. You impose your values on animals from other species every day, when you eat meat and dairy, wear leather or consume any other animal-derived product. Again.... in practice, dogs are not carnivores. This is not a disputed fact, Judy. You may want to call them carnivores but you do so at the expense of accuracy. It sounds as though you're going purely on the fact that they are listed in the order Carnivora. As Xan has pointed out, many other species whose diet is primarily vegetable matter are also listed in that order. So in that sense, the fact that they have big teeth does not make them carnivores (i.e.exclusively able to eat meat). Bears have the same big teeth, and their diet is 75-85% vegetable matter - fruits, nuts and seeds. The rest of it is made up of insects (for which they also don't need their big teeth) and the occasional dear or fish. So yes, they evolved to be able to hunt other animals, but their actual diet in the wild is much more flexible than that. That makes them omnivorous, because being a carnivore means that you only eat meat. Except that vegans are not just interested in the "cute furry animals" - our ethical perspective does include insects. We do not assume t the right to USE anyone else, be it human or non-human. It is precisely your statement about "using as a resource" that we take issue with. We don't see other non-human animals and species as a "resource", but as individuals who have just as much interest in living their own lives as we do, and who are no less deserving of being on the planet than we are. So clearly we would not be in favor of "harvesting" (nice word for killing) them, because we DO think it's unethical to impose our values on animals from other species (to borrow your quote from above). The difference is that when we talk about "imposing our values on other species" we don't mean just dogs - we mean every species, which is why it is ethical problematic for us to condone the death of one animal to feed another. Of course, in an ideal world, we wouldn't have a pet trade, shelters wouldn't be packed with homeless dogs, and we wouldn't be recklessly breeding other animals into existence for our convenience, food, entertainment or companionship. But as the situation stands now, as vegans TODAY we need to make decisions that respect as much as possible all species.

.... and I think this thread IS generating an interesting discussion. Whenever people have disagreed, Xan has been incredibly gracious, even when ignorant and offensive statements have been thrown at her. There is no doubt at all in my mind that she started this thread to create a good, constructive debate on this issue. So, thanks! greyhoundlady - my two greys have never been as excited about food as when I started to feed them vegan kibble. They danced around like crazy whenever I went near the bag. They much preferred it to their meat kibble. And they LOVE their fruit and veggies. So yes, given the choice, they would opt for that every time.