greyhead

Shane was recently treated for Babesia and improved, but not totally. His vet spoke to Dr. Holland at Protatek, who did the testing. Holland says, yes, it is worthwhile to test for more, that he might have had more than one. I've read of other dogs who were "dually diagnosed" with TBD's -- I think on the Tick-L listserve. Dr. Holland is supposed to be very helpful and easy to talk to. However, I'm disturbed that your vet assumes that consulting with OSU would lead to invasive testing. That's a pretty big jump. We're just talking phone call here! It sounds like Pepcid would be more than helpful here. Seriously, is there a reason for why not? It's a lot simpler than jumping around from food to food, looking for something that will work. Stomach acid has a way of making everything unappealing! And changing foods is a little hard even on healthy greyhounds. I'd give Pepcid. We're with you sweetie. Hang in there. ETA: I am *so* scattered lately, I sometimes forget the point I'm supposed to be making! I'm so sorry! My point on the TBD's was actually that Dr. Holland points out that there are *lots* of them besides the three tested for initially. So, yes, it may be a TBD even though tests on the three were negative.

Maybe not good to ingest in quantity? (I had just talked to his internist about zinc for fur regrowth, and she shook her head. It was his regular vet who said the words "no zinc" for the sunscreen formula.) Maybe I'll Google canines and zinc. Ah. http://www.vet.uga.edu/vpp/clerk/hardy/ Probably bad for an IBD dog.

Spencer lost *lots* of fur with his medicine this year. Rain's about gone, sun's here, so vets say use sunscreen. We'll probably need a lot of it for daily walks for the foreseeable future. One vet said "no zinc." That's all I know. I get that a spray is good, and baby sunscreen may be best. But: 1. is adult sunscreen okay (e.g., Neutrogena spray on sale now at Costco), or does it have to be kids/babies? 2. do we want waterproof or not? (I'm sure he'll lick it from his legs, so is non-waterproof less toxic to ingest perhaps?) 3. should I clean it off now and then with baby wipes? Anything you can share will be appreciated!

We've been using "ultra" absorbent incontinence pads for Shane overnight, held in place by 4" vet wrap, and covering that with a neoprene back supporter. He still manages to twist it a bit, but not enough to defeat the purpose! (Waiting on a belly band in the mail. I'll test it before I order more.) Oh, and you can get them from GEM (Greyhounds of Eastern Michigan) and HOT (Heart of Texas), and perhaps Northcoast Greyhounds, though they're sold out at the moment.

It's a pleasure to meet you, Jerilyn! Welcome!

You gave her the best year and five months imaginable! I'm so glad for that and so sorry for your way-too-soon loss. Thank you for the great tribute and pictures.

Glad it's treatable. Don't know all the implications, but at least you know what it is. Still, you could probably have done without this and so could Poodle!

Shane behaves much like yours on walks, some days worse than others. Also the drippy nose, and sometimes showing pain by standing in the house, not able to lie down, panting or breathing fast, and sometimes a high heart rate. He has several issues, including malformation of his paws and mildly elevated kidney values, and possibly arthritis. He was recently diagnosed and treated for a TBD, Babesia canis. Then he developed a bladder problem, so it has been hard to tell, but his stamina for walking seems to have improved. Last week he did a two-mile walk! Not knowing what the problem was three years ago, I asked the vet how to respond to his holding back or stopping on walks. She said, "If he stops, go home." We got to where we pretty much go home when his dragging becomes noticeable. Some days that's immediately; then we go the two blocks it takes him to be ready to poop, and then we go home. Please keep us posted as you try to figure this out. I will just add that having had him for almost 4 years now, I only recently became aware of how "well" this dog takes pain and how well he hides that he is having it at all. (We'd always thought he was kind of a meek little softy.) I'd recommend against regarding this as a behavioral issue.

Definitely check for TBD's. We've been happy with Protatek, but whatever. To you and everyone else: You don't need to care about the 97-99% of dogs that may not have a TBD. You only need to care about YOURS. A small chance is not the same as no chance. Big difference. One of ours was in that 1-3%, and I'm ashamed of how many years we didn't have him tested for it. We thought, "Oh, it's probably not that." Well, it was. Best wishes for your pup's recovery, whatever it turns out to be.

I'd tend to agree with your thinking about draining for now, until you know more about what you're dealing with. The time of your initial post suggests that you might not be in the U.S. Are you familiar with OSU, which Burpdog suggested? In case you're not, it's Ohio State University. And they consult for free. Our thoughts and prayers are with you. Please keep us updated.

You can PM or email me anytime. Hope you and Kelly have a productive visit at the vet. Just be sure you don't discuss doing a "fecal" test, because that only tests for worms. You have to ask for a culture-and-sensitivity test for bacteria, and you may need to choose which bacteria you want them to culture for. Our lab tests for 3 or 4 (E. coli, Salmonella, not sure what else). I just told them to make sure one of the tests was for Clostridium; I'd read an article by a vet about it, and I just knew from the description that that might well be the culprit. (I'm intuitive sometimes. Can't explain it. I've just learned how to recognize it and trust it when it happens.) Hugs to you and scritches to Kelly!

She was indeed the most beautiful girl. And she was supposed to stay forever. I hear you. I'm so very sorry.

Thank you for this wonderful post, hon. I'm so sorry Alan had to leave, but your description of your relationship -- then and now -- is truly inspiring. I feel badly that everyone can't/won't/doesn't have this kind of life with their dog, the kind they can't forget and wouldn't ever want to.

Can you say more about Duralactin? Is it an anti-inflammatory? Where do you get it? So glad Nina's doing so much better!

Same here! And he is totally rockin that black t-shirt!

Susan, see Stripeyfan's thread about Prednisone in H&M today. There's also a possibility of SIBO in that case, and there's mention (by me) of why you should test the poop with a C&S (culture and sensitivity) rather than with a standard fecal in the vet's office.

Sorry, I think I mixed your dog up with another one when I asked about the ultrasound. The last couple days were really confusing for me. That's my excuse and I'm stickin' to it! It sounds like the AB is controlling but perhaps not eliminating the bacteria. Another AB may need to be added or perhaps substituted. (I just read that a lot of resistance developed to tetracycline, so it's not used as much; don't know if oxytetracycline tends to overcome that resistance or not.) As I mentioned in my post above, it took three AB's to tackle Spencer's SIBO. And the way I would know we weren't done yet was when we'd stop an AB and the poop would get softer and smellier again. Yes, Spencer SIBO involved "foul-smelling pudding poo", so I don't know what it means that you don't have that. But SIBO and IBD are not mutually exclusive; if there is IBD or some other intestinal condition causing diarrhea, well, that would transform what would otherwise be pudding poo into diarrhea. Interesting about the roundworm history. I don't know what kind of damage roundworms do. Spencer had hookworm for a long time before we found it. Hookworms excavate channels in the intestinal wall! I have no doubt that such damage makes the intestines more vulnerable to infection and inflammation! I hope people more knowledgeable than I will jump in and answer some of your questions too. I only know what I know, which is what I learned through Spencer's case. It doesn't apply to everyone and it is limited. So I'll shut up now and let someone else talk!

Thanks, Julie, I see what you're saying. But I think doing a smear or flotation for SIBO would be hardly worth it. I asked the tech at our vet's to submit the loosest part of Spencer's sample to the lab for his C&S, because I figured it was the sickest. Stripeyfan, because we had such a gawdawful experience, I'd counsel doing a C&S instead of a slide smear or flotation if I suspected SIBO. And if that doesn't settle it, there's the Texas A&M procedure for determining toxin production by the bacteria. But as Julie said, many of these bacteria are normally present. It's the quantity that's key, as you probably know, but I'm saying this for the benefit of those who may be as in the dark as our family was before Spencer's drama. Maybe that's why so many vets ignore poop for anything but parasite detection -- like a smear or Texas A&M are the only choices. If something like Clostridium, for instance, is *seriously* overgrown, it will produce toxins and you don't need TAM to tell you so! But a C&S on the poop at a good local lab will quantify how many bacteria are growing, and they know how many of each kind to expect. So if the number is way beyond what's expected, then you know they're toxic. And the sensitivity part is great for figuring out which a/b's will work; in Spencer's case we needed all three a/b's that were supposed to work! Maybe because he had two different strains of the C. perfringens.

I hadn't heard this. If they're going to culture it, why would it need to be more solid? I'm not challenging you, I'm just curious! I'm becoming an H&M geek!

Definite malabsorption and possible SIBO, okay. Is Kelly getting B12 injections for the malabsorption? What did the ultrasound show about the location of Kelly's intestinal difficulty? If it's in the small intestine, which is where most of Spencer's was, a scope can't get there. The only thing that makes sense in that case is the surgical biopsy. I don't know what your thinking is, but our vet said the information that comes from biopsy doesn't have a large effect on the treatment. Yes, if you know exactly which type(s) of inflammatory cell(s) are involved, she said you can sometimes "tweak the treatment nicely." But the basic treatments are about the same, mainly an immunosuppressant (budesonide for us), antibiotic(s) (Flagyl and Tylan), and dietary restriction. Btw, his stools didn't firm up completely until we added the Tylan, which he hadn't seemed to respond to previously (before the SIBO was diagnosed). The other thing we used for firm stools was glutamate, which he doesn't seem to need anymore. But I got off track. Spencer was 8 and had lost 20 lbs. Apart from the anesthesia issue, Robin can tell you that recovery from abdominal surgery for these guys is another huge setback. We had trouble finding an internist to consult with us/our vet because the orthodox version of IBD is that you can't diagnose it unless you can Name That Cell through biopsy. I wasn't interested in putting Spencer through all that and possibly losing him, just to have somebody walk in the room and say, "Sorry we lost your dog, ma'am, but we know exactly which inflammatory cell made him sick!" We did find an internist eventually, an older woman with a GI specialty. We only needed to see her once,last May, and she basically confirmed everything we were doing. We'll see her again on Monday to discuss that Spencer's year on budesonide is up and whether he can now stop it. On the other hand, it defies common sense not to do a fecal culture and sensivity to identify the bacterium causing SIBO. It's non-invasive, relatively inexpensive, and may save the dog's life. Relative to your original questions, I understand IBD dogs need to be on immunosuppression for at least a year, and it doesn't sound like Kelly has been. I only worry about Kelly being on prednisone because the bacterial situation or SIBO hasn't been addressed with any precision if at all; suppressing his immune system at all is not going to help that situation. You can never ask too many questions of those GTers who have or have had IBD dogs! And I personally never tire of warning people about the dangers of SIBO, though I do get very tired of vets not doing so! (You can't believe the eye-rolling I endured from the techs when I insisted on not only SIBO testing, but inclusion of C. perfringens! I really had to suck it up to get through that. But after the results came back positive, well, they all became my BFF's!) Anyhow, Robin and I will probably shove each other out of the way for the chance to help you, so ask away!

Susan, here is a link to a recent thread where in my reply to it I gave a link to a good vet article on SIBO. I'm so sorry I can't be of more help right now. Still have sick dog and lost wedding ring. I'll keep checking back in though. How is your pup today? ETA: Okay, found the ring and my life is my own again! I see your other thread now too. Sounds like he's doing well enough this a.m. ETA: I fotgot to past the link before! It's post #8. http://forum.greytalk.com/index.php/topic/251196-diagnosis-for-kelly/page__p__4464262__hl__Clostridium%20__fromsearch__1&?do=findComment&comment=4464262

Yes, AND Clostridium also lives in dirt and can be picked up that way, so I imagine some of the other nasty germs can too. I'll try to dig up my articles to give you some backup with your vet. I'll even contribute my vet's phone number if he has any questions! ( But DH is returning from airport imminently, and I'm looking for my lost wedding ring, so give me until tomorrow for the articles, okay? Or let me know if you really need them sooner.)

By all means enjoy the rest of your time together.

Spencer's IBD was diagnosed with ultrasound and symptoms too. Before the IBD dx, he had a very, very bad case of SIBO caused by Clostridium perfringens. We gave him prednisone, not knowing what he had, just that it ws intestinal, and he immediately went downhill. Dx'd the SIBO, gave three different antibiotics, serially, and then dx'd the IBD and started budesonide. A year later, he's doing great. I had to INSIST finally that they test his poop for germs, and it was I who suggested C. perfringens be included (after reading an Internet article by a vet). I don't know why vets don't routinely do this, but they dont'. Someone on GT had encouraged me, after the SIBO dx, to get serious about the then-possible IBD. She said, "SIBO won't kill your dog. IBD will." Well, I only found out this month that that's incorrect. One of the strains of C. perfringens (that Spencer had) leads to gangrene if not stopped, and that leads to death. It stands to reason that any immunosuppressant, prednisone or otherwise, would not be doing any favor to a dog with a bacterial infection! So please, please, insist that they test the poop. Just because he has IBD doesn't mean he doesn't have something else too. Please feel free to contact me if there's anything you want to talk about. (Email access through Profile page.) All the hugs in the world, Mary

Godspeed Bear. Glad you had such a wonderful home.