MerlGrey Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 (edited) Hi, So we got our greyhound Merl around 8 months ago and he's been great. We have worked through multiple issues and built a lot of trust over the last few months. He is comfortable with us and sleeps with us on the floor sometimes (he isn't let on to the bed/sofa). However, he had a tendency to resource guard a lot. He allows us to touch his food bowl without any problem but any high value treat is out of the question. He's getting better with trading up training but it's a slow process understandably. Yesterday, we were out on our walk and he managed to get hold of a raw meat container in his mouth. I tried to get him to drop it(with treats and without by telling him to leave it) and he became really aggressive towards me. Barking, growling, baring his teeth, but never lunging at me. Finally, after I stayed calm and threw a few treats on the floor as well, he came over to me and took a treat from my hand. He has behaved fine afterwards and even fell asleep in my arms once we got home(both of us did in fact after all the stress). I know this behavior can be explained by the high value of the food, but should I be worried? Will this have destroyed a lot of the trust that we've built up over the last few months? Is there anything I can specifically do to help him understand that I'm not a threat to him so that he isn't as aggressive? Thanks. Edited January 18, 2022 by MerlGrey Additional question Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocsDoctor Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Just quickly to say don't worry too much - the barking and growling must have felt scary at the time, but actually I think you both ultimately did really well in those difficult circumstances. Food possessiveness is not an unusual trait and when you think of how greyhounds are reared in kennels rather than in homes, with food being delivered in a more 'hands-off' way and high-value treats maybe having to be guarded from other dogs, you can see why. And scavenging on walks is irresistible to a lot of dogs, not just greyhounds: "look, free food! What's not to like? I saw it first! MINE MINE MINE! " With time and kind consistent training he should get better about giving stuff up, as your bond grows. Meanwhile if abandoned fast food is a problem in your area (as it seems to be in most places these days) up your management skills by 1) learning to spot it before he does, and steering him away 2) having some high value treats to hand just in case, so you can "trade up" as you were able to do yesterday or 3) walking him in a basket muzzle so he can't grab the stuff. Quote Clare with Tiger (Snapper Gar, b. 18/05/2015), and remembering Ken (Boomtown Ken, 01/05/2011-21/02/2020) and Doc (Barefoot Doctor, 20/08/2001-15/04/2015)."It is also to be noted of every species, that the handsomest of each move best ... and beasts of the most elegant form, always excel in speed; of this, the horse and greyhound are beautiful examples."----Wiliam Hogarth, The Analysis of Beauty, 1753. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlGrey Posted January 18, 2022 Author Share Posted January 18, 2022 5 hours ago, DocsDoctor said: Just quickly to say don't worry too much - the barking and growling must have felt scary at the time, but actually I think you both ultimately did really well in those difficult circumstances. Food possessiveness is not an unusual trait and when you think of how greyhounds are reared in kennels rather than in homes, with food being delivered in a more 'hands-off' way and high-value treats maybe having to be guarded from other dogs, you can see why. And scavenging on walks is irresistible to a lot of dogs, not just greyhounds: "look, free food! What's not to like? I saw it first! MINE MINE MINE! " With time and kind consistent training he should get better about giving stuff up, as your bond grows. Meanwhile if abandoned fast food is a problem in your area (as it seems to be in most places these days) up your management skills by 1) learning to spot it before he does, and steering him away 2) having some high value treats to hand just in case, so you can "trade up" as you were able to do yesterday or 3) walking him in a basket muzzle so he can't grab the stuff. Thank you so much for your prompt response. I think it is the first time I've been so scared of him and I didn't know whether I was doing anything wrong, especially in this situation. So, I really appreciate the reassurance and also the tips. We were already considering getting him back to his muzzle on walks but the only annoying bit is that he can't seem to eat treats through the basket muzzle, which makes training and reinforcement quite difficult on walks. Would you recommend trying to find another basket muzzle that he can eat from or would all muzzles be pretty much the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocsDoctor Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Glad that was helpful! And absolutely don't beat yourself up for doing anything wrong. Rather pat yourself on the back, because you both did well, like I say. Try to think of him as having been defensive, rather than aggressive - barking and growling to warn you off, but as you say not lunging towards you - or biting. While you had the good sense to stay calm, rather than try and grab the thing, and have 'trade-ups' ready for when he too calmed down. I've only ever needed to use a wire muzzle here, but hopefully others with more experience can advise on basket ones. Quote Clare with Tiger (Snapper Gar, b. 18/05/2015), and remembering Ken (Boomtown Ken, 01/05/2011-21/02/2020) and Doc (Barefoot Doctor, 20/08/2001-15/04/2015)."It is also to be noted of every species, that the handsomest of each move best ... and beasts of the most elegant form, always excel in speed; of this, the horse and greyhound are beautiful examples."----Wiliam Hogarth, The Analysis of Beauty, 1753. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1Moregrey Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Not sure what kind of muzzle you are using or where you are at. I am in the US and use the plastic racing turn out ones both with the stool guard and without. For the ones without the stool guard I just put the treat in one of the opening or hold it in a flat hand like giving a treat to a horse. They can get food off the floor if it is the right size. If using the one with a stool guard I just toss it in from the gap on the underside it slides down and she can get it. (Use the same process if I need to distract her for a little bit peanut butter gives me more time) Hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greysmom Posted January 18, 2022 Share Posted January 18, 2022 Resource guarding is very common, as is the reaction you describe - from both of you. But you did the right thing - remain calm and encouraging him to leave the item and come to you - which he ultimately did. So take this as a victory. Some thoughts in no particular order: >if he's routinely finding food on the ground, you *can* use his muzzle. Just insert the treat through the side or front far enough for him to get with his lips. All my dogs caught on to the trickiness of this maneuver quickly, and now take treats through a muzzle easily. >work a bit more on your "drop it" and "leave it" commands more in situations that are *not* high stress. Short successful sessions are better than longer, more frustrating ones. >he's likely completely (or nearly completely - he'll look for that box every time you pass that spot on your walk!) forgotten about the incident. What was scary and difficult for you, was just another snack for him! And he used his words - loudly - to let you know how he felt about your interference. He still trusts you. > find a very high value treat you can carry with you specifically for situations like this. Part of the issue was that what you were offering wasn't as high value as what he was guarding - freeze dried liver, human beef or chicken jerky, cubes of cheese - something he won't be able to resist. Sounds like things are going well for you. Congrats and welcome!! Quote Chris - Mom to: Felicity (DeLand), and Andi (Braska Pandora) siggy by Chris Harper, on Flickr Angels: Libby (Everlast), Dorie (Dog Gone Holly), Dude (TNJ VooDoo), Copper (Kid's Copper), Cash (GSI Payncash), Toni (LPH Cry Baby), Whiskey (KT's Phys Ed), Atom, Lilly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo_the_Grey Posted January 19, 2022 Share Posted January 19, 2022 Great answers so far. I'm a newbie to greys, but I like to teach "trade" and "leave it" from the very beginning of my relationship with dogs. Here's a good article: https://resources.bestfriends.org/article/how-teach-dog-trade I feel that this develops trust over resources to the dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlGrey Posted January 19, 2022 Author Share Posted January 19, 2022 Thanks everyone for taking the time to write down such extensive suggestions. All the reading and learning about retired greyhound/dog behavior can't match up to actually hearing real life experiences and reassurances from other people like you all. I feel much more at ease as a result, so I really appreciate it. We've tried muzzle feeding him in many ways but every time the treat seems to end up getting stuck at the bottom of the muzzle. I'll try some of the suggestions from here to see if they work. Meanwhile, we will stay consistent with the leave it and trade up training. Hopefully, he will get more comfortable about it all in the future. I'll keep you all updated on how it goes! Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toffeesdad Posted January 20, 2022 Share Posted January 20, 2022 Just to add my 2 cents. Our boy can find anything remotely edible on a walk and have it swallowed before I can react. I worry about it but he hates his muzzle, which is weird sense he was a successful racer. I avoid the garbage can storage areas in the neighborhood and keep an eye on the street gutter. It’s surprising how much food scraps get tossed on the street in a residential neighborhood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sniffy Posted January 22, 2022 Share Posted January 22, 2022 On 1/20/2022 at 1:36 PM, Toffeesdad said: Just to add my 2 cents. Our boy can find anything remotely edible on a walk and have it swallowed before I can react. I worry about it but he hates his muzzle, which is weird sense he was a successful racer. I avoid the garbage can storage areas in the neighborhood and keep an eye on the street gutter. It’s surprising how much food scraps get tossed on the street in a residential neighborhood. We are in that same boat. Lots of rabbits and coyotes in our neighborhood, so we get some roadkill and predator-kill on our walks. Sometimes it's very dark; other times obscured by leaves /etc. But more than once Stanley grabbed dead-body-parts and swallowed them instantly. Gross, and somewhat scary. Quote Was a subscriber in the mid 2000s (the aughts!). Reactivated in 2021. What'd I miss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlGrey Posted January 25, 2022 Author Share Posted January 25, 2022 Had a small victory today! Merl managed to grab hold of a dead pigeon while out in the park and I had already resigned myself to the fact that he was going to eat it. But, he surprised me by dropping the pigeon and taking the treat from my hand (nearly bit my hand off though!). Definitely a step up from before! Also, we've started using the muzzle for his evening walk on the streets because of the fast food problem, but we thought, "the park is pretty clean, he should be fine to walk without his muzzle in the morning!". That was until today haha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EllenEveBaz Posted January 28, 2022 Share Posted January 28, 2022 Congrats to you and Merl! Just out of curiosity, what treat does he like better than dead pigeon? Quote Ellen, with brindle Milo and the blonde ballerina, Gelsey remembering Eve, Baz, Scout, Romie, Nutmeg, and Jeter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerlGrey Posted January 28, 2022 Author Share Posted January 28, 2022 Just now, EllenEveBaz said: Congrats to you and Merl! Just out of curiosity, what treat does he like better than dead pigeon? My hand by the looks of it 😂 but my hand did contain some toast chicken 🐓 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
supernoodle Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 The fact your dog is communicating with you by giving you warning signs like growling is actually a good thing, and means this is a very manageable case. The "trading up" method, and the basket muzzle are good measures, and can sometimes be enough, although they both have their weaknesses--you might not always have a higher value treat to "trade up" with, or he might not be muzzled. You might also be in a situation where you inadvertently trigger the behavior. My current greyhound has serious food aggression and resource guarding issues. My greyhound would bite, usually without warning, anyone he perceived might be trying to take something away from him. All the members of my family had been bitten because of this, as sometimes it was inadvertently triggered, so it was very important for our safety for him to listen to the "leave it" command. I know some people are hesitant on this method, but I was able to get this behavior under control using a combination of rewards and an e-collar. My e-collar has two settings, shock and vibrate, and goes from level 1-100 in intensity. I removed the shock prongs, and only used the vibration setting, and never above level 5 (out of 100). To give you a frame of reference, this is a fraction of a cellphone vibration ring. Just this gentle vibration was enough for my greyhound to learn not to ignore the "leave it" command. And when he listened successfully to "leave it", I would immediately reward him. Now he knows to listen when we say "leave it", and is also convinced he will be rewarded. No pain or punishment, just a gentle vibration, and now everyone in the house is much more safe. I've also had greyhounds in the past that had the same issue, but to a much lesser degree, and I was able to address the behavior with several training sessions just using rewards as reinforcement. I think it depends on the dog and intensity of the behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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