Bad Behavior in a Beloved Hound

[RuthVictoria]

We've had our nearly 6-yr-old retired racer for four years, and we adore him. My husband and I are a 1-dog household, with no behavior issues with "Jack" (an alias) until today when he bit my husband rather viciously in the hand.

This happened when I was pointing out a small scrape Jack had gotten on his leg. Jack was lying on his mat and we accidentally leaned over him in our concern, which frightened him and he jumped up and bit down. We always avoid this action -- of looming over him when he's feeling vulnerable -- because we recognize it's a trigger for him, so we realized our mistake and backed off, and so did Jack. But what alarms us both is the degree of the reaction. Jack has snarled at us before -- more my husband than myself -- but he's never bitten us. I'm seeking guidance in how we respond.

Let me describe our response so far today: This happened on the porch, so after saying NO we left Jack on the porch and went inside to tend to my hubby's injuries. Mostly deep scrapes, not deep punctures, so not serious physically. We've agreed not to make eye contact with Jack for the time being, no treats, and while he's got plenty of water available, he's getting only kibble/water for awhile without the cooked chicken he usually gets. We'll let him in or out as he pleases, but minimal conversation or interaction with him. So far he’s skulking around acting guilty, but he’s quiet and calm. It rained today, so at one point I dried him off without incident.

Normally we shower him with affection, so we are fairly sure this social shunning will punish him effectively, as far as it goes. But that's my question: Is this punishment enough? Should we do more, or less, or different? Should we be hopeful this is a one-time thing, or worried it's a sign of worse to come? I've always trusted Jack completely, but like I said, my trust is shaken. We would value any guidance you can offer.

Jack is large, around 95 lbs, but he's in excellent health and sees a great vet, gets lots of exercise, and we can count several ribs so he's at a good weight for his size. He raced only three times, no serious injuries so far, somehow ended up in a half-way house, then was adopted previously by someone who crated him excessively (his hindquarters were bald when he first came to us), so while we did crate him in the beginning, we never insisted on it, and when he became reluctant to use it, we put it away. He's got plenty of beds and alone space, and often sleeps on his bed on our bedroom floor. We forbid only two places to Jack: our bed and the couch. Other than that, he's at home and never misbehaves in any way, never counter-surfs, steals things, anything... Until today. What would you do if Jack was your beloved hound? Thanking all who offer guidance in advance!

[ramonaghan]

I'm sorry this happened and know firsthand how scary and upsetting it is. But...please stop punishing him. He simply reacted to feeling threatened and it wasn't personal; it was his way of communicating his discomfort with your looming over him (as you rightly noted is a trigger for him). If the bite wasn't serious, then in fact he exercised appropriate bite inhibition. He might have sent some subtle calming signals that you missed before it happened (averting his eyes, yawning, etc.) or maybe you just startled him. It's understandable that you're a little warier now (my girl has sleep startle and has become more protective of her bed in recent years, so again, I do understand where you're coming from), but shunning him is not the way to go. Going forward, avoid his triggers and call him over to you if you need to point something out to each other or examine him. There's no reason to think he's suddenly a vicious hound; he just has quirks you need to work around, and it sounds like you knew that already. You'll regain the trust in a week or two. He's likely already forgotten the incident and is puzzled by your behavior! 

[MerseyGrey]

I’m not sure that ‘social shunning’ will mean anything to him in relation to this particular incident. As for looking ‘guilty’, that is a human emotion projected onto an animal by humans. You’ve already said that you recognise that the way you behaved was a trigger for his reaction so maybe you need to remain mindful of your behaviour. If your boy has an excellent behavioural record before this incident I don’t see that you need to do anything further. Withholding treats and affection probably won’t help and greyhounds respond much better to positive reinforcement anyway. 
 

There are some much more experienced people than me on this forum who might be able to recommend training books to help you with your boy’s reaction to being leaned over in general, but until then...don’t lean over him!

(I’ve just read this back and it sounds like a cyber bum-smack, which is not my intention! I hope you come to trust him again. And totally agree with ramonaghan!)

Edited August 5, 2020 by MerseyGrey
To agree with the above link!

[HeyRunDog]

I agree with ramonaghan and MerseyGrey. Continuing to punish him long after the event is lost on him. Put it down to a communication breakdown and a learning experience but continue as before the incident but don't put yourselves in the same situation again.

 

[RuthVictoria]

I've mulled over these 3 replies all day and some of the night. I do hear you when you say "don't lean over him," got it! As I said, we are aware. And I appreciate the tip of calling him over to us if we are pointing something out -- makes perfect sense.

On the other hand, did I really need to be told "so maybe you need to remain mindful of your behaviour" when I'd just copped to that in my original post? And, yes, I do understand the concept of positive reinforcement -- that's what we've been doing all along and it was working just fine until yesterday. I came here for help in setting boundaries for a hound that, for four happy years, has not needed them. Yet I can't find the help in your replies. You seem horrified that we "continue punishing him" -- this amounted to denying him eye contact for a few hours, yikes! -- lest it cripple him emotionally. And yet you also insist that dogs forget why they're being punished in a few minutes anyway. How can it be both?

If dogs didn't learn to recognize the consequences of their actions, how could they be trained to do... anything? Jack remembers everything else:  our routine and when it varies, the precise timing of the evening treats, that car-keys signal a car-ride, a million things... Yet you say he cannot recall when he's crossed a major line: biting the master! 

I read somewhere here a post in which someone said they now trusted their hound not to destroy the house. What would they do if a trusted hound suddenly DID destroy the house? Offer positive reinforcement? Move to a new house? Do you really think that this previously-trusted hound doesn't KNOW when he's crossed a line?

Sorry if my frustration is showing, but if Jack bites us again -- whether or not it's our fault -- what would you have us do? My original question remains largely unanswered. I've been chastened and scolded, but not helped.

[ramonaghan]

I'm sorry you feel that way, and certainly no one intended to make you feel bad or scolded. I don't think anyone suggested you were emotionally crippling him by punishing him, only that it's unlikely to be effective because he won't realize your behavior is associated with that incident. Dogs live in the moment. Routines are different; he recognizes those patterns and behaviors because they're repeated regularly. 

I did try to answer your questions in my original post, specifically:

21 hours ago, RuthVictoria said:

But that's my question: Is this punishment enough? Should we do more, or less, or different? Should we be hopeful this is a one-time thing, or worried it's a sign of worse to come? I've always trusted Jack completely, but like I said, my trust is shaken.

Do different. Don't punish him. Call him to you instead of examining him on his bed. And there's no need to worry it's a sign of worse to come if you adjust your approach accordingly (i.e., avoid his triggers). He has snarled before, and maybe he has decided you weren't taking the hint so he made it clearer. Research "calming signals" too to see if there are subtle cues you might be missing.

21 hours ago, RuthVictoria said:

What would you do if Jack was your beloved hound? 

I *do* have a beloved hound that has done this, and as long as we don't bother her on her bed, we have no problems whatsoever. We have had her for 8 years now, and she always had sleep startle. Guess how we learned that? She lunged and muzzle-punched me, giving me a beautiful black eye for Thanksgiving our first year. In the past 2 or so years she doesn't want to be touched on her bed at all. Guess how we learned that? She lunged and bit my husband. Not seriously, but enough for us to get the message. This was a dog who used to roach on her bed every night and get a foot massage from him. She decided she didn't like that anymore (probably arthritis), and communicated that loud and clear. Yes, it would be much nicer and less painful if they could talk! They're not aggressive or jockeying for position with you. As I'm sure Jack is, Sweep is the sweetest, most affectionate dog...when she's standing. She's funny and clever and we wouldn't trade her for anything, but we do have to work around certain personality quirks. They all have some. I am grateful she doesn't have separation anxiety and doesn't try to eat my cats or their poop!  

Finally, you will find that most people on this board don't subscribe to the whole "alpha" dominance theory or think of themselves as the "master." Try to let go of that and understand that Jack's not challenging your authority, he's communicating his discomfort with the only tools he has.

Good luck to you. I hope this is more helpful.

[palmettobug]

Vet check--he may be having some pain issues (and we all know how well they hide it!). My boy Gino has issues with one rear foot, which provokes a bite reaction with me, but he is perfectly fine with the chiropractor and the nail-clipper lady.

I've been bitten by both my big boys, and yes, it's terrible and shocking and all those emotions, but at the end of the day, I know it's my fault and they are just being dogs.

[MerseyGrey]

I’m sorry if I made you feel bad. It wasn’t my intention and is the reason why I put the disclaimer at the end of my post. My advice was based on my experience and certainly I believe that in your situation, in the short term I would not continue to ostracise my dog, and in the long term I would seek to modify my own behaviour. If I was concerned about a repeat incident, I would consider finding a behaviourist. You came here for advice. That’s what I would do. Someone else might do it differently. If you give it few more days you might get more responses. 

[RuthVictoria]

I appreciate your latest suggestions, and the apologies also. It's difficult to ask for help, AND to give it, I'm sure. I never doubted your collective good will, and yes, I probably overreacted to the dog and to you. But we love him dearly, and want him to be happy, and thought we were doing so well... so it IS kind of a big deal. Still, my apologies for losing my cool.

I confess to maybe suffering from ptsd after we (years ago) adopted an aggressive (non-grey) puppy, one that terrorized us both for seven months before we returned it to the breeder. This little guy bit or scratched my husband just about every day. We realized we were not the type of owners this dog needed. We tried our best, spent a fortune in puppy training (he flunked), aggression training, etc., without ever achieving any kind of bond with (or authority over) this dog.

Since adopting Jack, we've loved the absence of drama, aggression, and dominance-seeking behavior that the mean puppy had in spades, and that Jack the hound seemed to lack entirely. It was a shock to see blood and know it was our sweet greyhound that brought it. Probably why I jumped to dire predictions (worse to come, etc.), as I was imagining us back in that mean-dog scenario. However, your suggestions have helped put things into perspective, I think, and reminded me of the challenges of housing a racer. We'll keep on keepin' on, then, and wish you well.

[ramonaghan]

Aww, he's gorgeous and looks so soft! Your feelings and concerns are understandable given your history with the puppy. However, Jack is still the wonderful dog you've had for four years, and a single incident doesn't change that. You have served him well by recognizing what triggered it and asking for help going forward. We all do the best we can.

Please check back in if you need anything or just to post cute pictures of your boy!  Always nice to have new members on the forum.

[macoduck]

He is indeed a handsome boy.

My only suggestion is that if he has some kind of injury in the future that you muzzle him before getting close to examine him.

[RuthVictoria]

That's a great suggestion, macoduck. And ramonaghan, he IS soft. The first thing people say when they meet him is Oh, he's so beautiful. The second is always Oh, he's so soft! A big velveteen rabbit.