Will The Puppy Pick Up Ruby's Nervousness ?

[Busderpuddle]

Nothing new here, but Ruby has been driving us crazy with her shaking, whining, running to her crate, shaking some more........and is afraid of the ice maker, the grill while it's cooling down, thunder, twigs on the ground, and everything else that makes noise.

So, we are wondering if the puppy that we are getting next month will pick up the bad habits and fear that Ruby has ? I have never had 2 dogs at once, and am worried that because Ruby is frightened of certain things, the pup will pick up on that too. If so, is there anything we can do about it ? We really want a bomb proof puppy, and the breed is supposed to be brave and fearful, but I keep wondering...........

Appreciate any help and advice as to what I can do to make sure the pup stays confident. We want to make her a therapy dog for the local nursing homes. Ruby was afraid of the wheelchairs and walkers.

[NeylasMom]

Why don't you work on addressing Ruby's fears first? Have you tried calming supplements? Medication? Have you worked with a behaviorist/trainer to develop a plan for management and counter-conditioning and desensitization?

 

I apologize if I don't remember some of the history. Very tired at the moment.

[Busderpuddle]

Why don't you work on addressing Ruby's fears first? Have you tried calming supplements? Medication? Have you worked with a behaviorist/trainer to develop a plan for management and counter-conditioning and desensitization?

 

I apologize if I don't remember some of the history. Very tired at the moment.

Yes, We have done every medication that the vets can think of (currently on Amitryptiline-but it's not helping), We have bought every OTC calming med, plug in, bandana, thunder shirt available, all with zero help. The behaviorist we saw a few years back said that some dogs are just scaredy cats, and he didn't think that we could do much with her, except reassure her all is well during times of stress. Her behavior worsens the older she gets, but this is the way she came. We love this silly girl.........but don't want 2 of them.

 

edited to add, she currently has 3 drops of lavendar essential oil on the back of her ears, an idea I saw on Pinterest earlier today.

Edited July 5, 2017 by Busderpuddle

[GeorgeofNE]

Crazy question, but have you ever had her thyroid checked?

 

Buck's numbers were very questionable, but we tried a very low dose of soloxine since his sire is known to throw pups with thyroid issues. While it did nothing about his BIG fears, it stopped all his fussing over bugs and such.

 

He's currently off it for a break, and I have noticed he is much more anxious.

[greysmom]

We had Cash - our spook - when we got Lilly at 12 weeks old. Since Cash didn't pay any attention to the puppy whatsoever, there was no chance of her behaviors migrating. Because we wanted a fun, outgoing puppy, we made sure to socialize her regularly and often with other dogs, strange people, strange places - we basically took her everywhere we could while she was small. The extra exercise helped her sleep through the nights too!

 

Be prepared for Ruby to want nothing to do with the puppy. They move fast, are noisy and disruptive, and have very bad dog manners. She may take it on herself to teach him - sometimes very loudly - but she may just as easily want to be in another part of the house all-together. Make sure you give her a safe place where she can go and the puppy can't bug her.

[Guest goofydog2]

There is a 'puppy socialization' list on the net. I can't seem to link it but you can do a search. It talks about '100 new experiences in 100 days.' I've heard praises for this approach from folks not only with grey pups but other breeds as well. Can't hurt to give it a look see.

[philospher77]

The simple answer is that yes, your new puppy definitely can learn fearful behavior from Ruby. Young animals learn from adults how to survive in the wild, and what to be wary of is high on that list. My trainer's recommendations for anyone thinking of getting a second dog is to physically separate them as much as possible, since you want them to be looking to you for guidance and affection, not each other. Her rule of thumb is that each dog spends twice as much time interacting with the humans as with each other. So, if they get to play and hang out with each other for 30 minutes, that means EACH dog gets an hour of individual attention. They get walked individually (especially important so that you can devote your attention to teaching the pup good leash skills), they are separated from each other in the house while you are at work. As she says, getting a second dog isn't twice as much work, it's four times as much. You don't have to do that, but failing to do so may result in a dog that learns to be dependent on your other dog, and that can cause issues if they ever need to be separated in the future (vet, class, etc.) I will say that, having assisted at a class where a family brought in two over-bonded dogs, it was striking to see how much more difficulty the owners had with basic things simply because the dogs found each other much more reinforcing than the owners. Just getting the dogs to focus on the owner and be calm while away from the other dog was a struggle.

 

With Ruby being such a fearful dog, I would recommend doing this at least until the pup is past the second fear stage, somewhere around 6-14 months, possibly longer if it's a large breed dog. Eighteen months to two years would probably make a good foundation, at which point you might be able to ease up on the separation a bit. During this time, you must take proactive steps to ensure that the pup is appropriately socialized. While doing this, it is important to remember that the goal of socialization is really to teach a pup that the world is a safe place full of stuff that he can ignore, NOT that he needs to be interacting with everything. Here's some articles to help:

 

https://clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog

https://positively.com/dog-behavior/puppy-knowledge/puppy-socialization/

 

Hope this helps!

[krissy]

The simple answer is that yes, your new puppy definitely can learn fearful behavior from Ruby. Young animals learn from adults how to survive in the wild, and what to be wary of is high on that list. My trainer's recommendations for anyone thinking of getting a second dog is to physically separate them as much as possible, since you want them to be looking to you for guidance and affection, not each other. Her rule of thumb is that each dog spends twice as much time interacting with the humans as with each other. So, if they get to play and hang out with each other for 30 minutes, that means EACH dog gets an hour of individual attention. They get walked individually (especially important so that you can devote your attention to teaching the pup good leash skills), they are separated from each other in the house while you are at work. As she says, getting a second dog isn't twice as much work, it's four times as much. You don't have to do that, but failing to do so may result in a dog that learns to be dependent on your other dog, and that can cause issues if they ever need to be separated in the future (vet, class, etc.) I will say that, having assisted at a class where a family brought in two over-bonded dogs, it was striking to see how much more difficulty the owners had with basic things simply because the dogs found each other much more reinforcing than the owners. Just getting the dogs to focus on the owner and be calm while away from the other dog was a struggle.

 

With Ruby being such a fearful dog, I would recommend doing this at least until the pup is past the second fear stage, somewhere around 6-14 months, possibly longer if it's a large breed dog. Eighteen months to two years would probably make a good foundation, at which point you might be able to ease up on the separation a bit. During this time, you must take proactive steps to ensure that the pup is appropriately socialized. While doing this, it is important to remember that the goal of socialization is really to teach a pup that the world is a safe place full of stuff that he can ignore, NOT that he needs to be interacting with everything. Here's some articles to help:

 

https://clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog

https://positively.com/dog-behavior/puppy-knowledge/puppy-socialization/

 

Hope this helps!

 

This.

 

I let Kili play with other dogs a lot when she was a puppy. I did a lot of individual work with her too, but she was my first puppy and I was really worried about her not being good with other dogs. So I let her play with other puppies and other dogs a whole bunch. And I'm not saying it was necessarily a huge mistake, but she's very dog oriented. Part of that I think is just her personality. She's not hugely handler focused. But, I think I could have helped that by not letting her play quite as much as I did with other dogs. Luckily Summit is quite a bit older, so although he did play with her, it wasn't non-stop all the time. With Kenna and Kili being closer in age, they want to play with each other ALL THE TIME. However, I have strictly limited their access to each other to prevent this. In the house Kenna is in an x-pen if I'm not working with her, and I either turn the girls out separately, or I am out with them. I do give them time to run and play together, and sometimes more than others. This week they've gotten lots of play time together as I've been taking them over to the hockey rink down the street and letting them rip around a bit to get some exercise, or if we go for a trail walk they can run together... but usually I limit them to a couple of minutes in the yard per day. Kenna is a lot more focused on me than she is on the environment or other dogs. She still loves to meet new dogs, but she doesn't have playing with them on her mind 24/7 which is nice.

 

I walked them separately for a full year in order to work on leash skills, which I think is really important. You can't teach proper leash manners walking two dogs. The older dog will get frustrated with all of the stopping, and to try to be fair you will end up being inconsistent with the younger dog and creating confusion. Kenna is 16 months old and most of the time I still walk her by herself. I have started to sometimes walk her with Kili, but it's pretty occasional still.

 

Temperament is not stable until about 2 years old. It's important to socialize lots all through those first 2 years, and reinforce the kind of reactions and behaviours you want... but also important to realize that genetics are very strong and you can't completely overcome them with training and socialization. And things can change up until 2. Kili loved all other dogs up until 18 months, and then she started to change. She's still very dog friendly, but in certain circumstances she can be nervous of other dogs, and she can be quite bitchy towards intact females. That's just who she is, and all the socializing and playing that she did with other dogs didn't ultimately make her best friends with every dog at the end of the day. There are lots of pups that are well socialized to people and the environment and still turn out fearful of people, or busy places, or loud noises.

[Busderpuddle]

Thank you all for the great information. Like I said, I have never had 2 dogs at once, so this is new to me.

Yes, Ruby has had her thyroid checked, all is normal.

I like the idea of not allowing the 2 to spend a lot of time together, and we had discussed this already, mainly because Ruby is crotchety and a grouch at times. She likes to be left alone, so she will have her places to be without getting bothered. We have an XPen, and the pup will spend time in there when I cannot be on top of her.

Appreciate all your comments.

[sobesmom]

The puppy might actually help Ruby. Just treat the puppy as you would normally, and don't worry.