I Am Most Desperate. Has Anyone's Greyhound Had Complications Af

[Guest got2now]

 

This is an excellent link for pets' financial assistance.

 

Not sure if this might be helpful but Christine Kellogg, DVM relocated to Woodstock, GA. She participated in the Greyhound Heath and Wellness Program headed by Dr. Couto, in Ohio. Just thinking she might be able to refer you to a Greyhound savvy specialist for a second opinion.

 

Your sweet girl's situation is heartbreaking. I imagine she'll be so glad to see her most beloved person. Our thoughts are with you both.

Oh wow, that is huge.... Woodstock is much closer than Athens, and anyone who worked with Dr Couto will know more about greyhounds and osteosarcoma than a graduate vet student on oncology rotation. Wow. That is such a help. I found a local number for her and will try it this morning. Thank you so much.

[Guest got2now]

I feel your financial & emotional pain. Due to her infection, Twiggy was never eligible for any trials. I am extraordinarily fortunate to have her still here & doing amazing. But funds are an issue. >$60m at this point (or at least the last time I checked). Being long-term unemployed due to my age doesn't help. But there is no way I can limit her life due to funds now, so I keep trying to do everything I can. When funds run out, there is nothing you can do, and there is tremendous sadness, but absolutely no shame in that.

 

That said, I hope it doesn't come to that for you & that we all hear a steady upswing for you & your girl!

 

Thank you for your most helpful posts. I cannot believe that Twiggy has lived for 5 years since her diagnosis - that is just amazing, and I'm sure is due to your devoted care. Can you point me to a thread (if you have one) or tell me what did after her infection cleared up? Chemos? Supplements you recommend or special diet?

[MP_the4pack]

My Diamond had an infection after her front leg amp.

 

She was done at OSU when Dr Couto was still there. 'nuff said.

[TwiggysMom]

 

 

Thank you for your most helpful posts. I cannot believe that Twiggy has lived for 5 years since her diagnosis - that is just amazing, and I'm sure is due to your devoted care. Can you point me to a thread (if you have one) or tell me what did after her infection cleared up? Chemos? Supplements you recommend or special diet?

 

I didn't have a separate thread for her, but was posting with some regularity in the Osteo Threads - probably in the ranges of Osteo Thread 4 / 5. Once her infection cleared & she was healed up, Twiggy got 6 rounds of IV carboplatin. I grew uncomfortable with the oncologist who administered the carbo, mostly because she and the rest of the hospital staff made a habit of saying insulting things about Dr. Couto, but also because the last round of IV chemo went very wrong - Twiggy was peeing/pooping blood & the oncologist refused to acknowledge that this was a possibility. (Thankfully, she recovered quickly at her regular vet's office with some sub-Q fluids)

 

After the IV chemo was done I found a new oncologist who knew and had participated in one of the early studies of Palladia along with Dr. Couto. He agreed with the "gold standard" of treatment at the time which was a metronomic protocol of Palladia, Cytoxan, and Metacam. On Dr. Couto's advice, I also gave Twiggy an Artemisinin supplement (which is OTC). Twiggy's system couldn't tolerate the metronomic protocol for very long, and I wasn't going to ruin her quality of life to prolong it, so first we stopped the Palladia, then the Metacam & Cytoxan. The artemisinin did not cause side effects so we continued that for several years. In all, Twiggy received the metronomic protocol for maybe 7-8 months.

 

I believe most oncologists (Dr. Couto included) now feel that Palladia is not as effective as hoped in preventing metastasis, and is not prescribed as often. It also was, and probably still is, extremely expensive.

 

For most of Twiggy's post-amp life, she has been off of medications designed to prevent mets. She has been on quite a few supplements/medications to help her body deal with the extra wear and tear of being a tripod. These include: Duralactin, Dausuquin with MSM, Adequan injections, Krill Oil (chemo messed her digestive system up, and she can no longer handle regular fish oil, but krill oil is ok - go figure), Turmeric, acid blockers/reducers, Tramadol, Gabapentin, and Methocarbamol.

 

I had no idea that Twiggy could do so well for so long, and I never reduced her activity level. I did, however, let her determine how far/fast she would take her recovery. One thing I was very glad to be warned about was a behavior common initially among front-leg amps like your girl & Twiggy - they will often rear up on their hind legs and scream for all they're worth. It's terrifying, & initially Twiggy did this almost every time she tried to stand up. This diminished & eventually went away over the first couple weeks post-amp. This may be in part a pain reaction, but I believe it is also a fear/shock reaction to not understanding why there is no leg where there is supposed to be one.

 

Hang in there - many of us here have been where you are & we are all pulling for you!

[Guest got2now]

I didn't have a separate thread for her, but was posting with some regularity in the Osteo Threads - probably in the ranges of Osteo Thread 4 / 5. Once her infection cleared & she was healed up, Twiggy got 6 rounds of IV carboplatin. I grew uncomfortable with the oncologist who administered the carbo, mostly because she and the rest of the hospital staff made a habit of saying insulting things about Dr. Couto, but also because the last round of IV chemo went very wrong - Twiggy was peeing/pooping blood & the oncologist refused to acknowledge that this was a possibility. (Thankfully, she recovered quickly at her regular vet's office with some sub-Q fluids)

 

After the IV chemo was done I found a new oncologist who knew and had participated in one of the early studies of Palladia along with Dr. Couto. He agreed with the "gold standard" of treatment at the time which was a metronomic protocol of Palladia, Cytoxan, and Metacam. On Dr. Couto's advice, I also gave Twiggy an Artemisinin supplement (which is OTC). Twiggy's system couldn't tolerate the metronomic protocol for very long, and I wasn't going to ruin her quality of life to prolong it, so first we stopped the Palladia, then the Metacam & Cytoxan. The artemisinin did not cause side effects so we continued that for several years. In all, Twiggy received the metronomic protocol for maybe 7-8 months.

 

I believe most oncologists (Dr. Couto included) now feel that Palladia is not as effective as hoped in preventing metastasis, and is not prescribed as often. It also was, and probably still is, extremely expensive.

 

For most of Twiggy's post-amp life, she has been off of medications designed to prevent mets. She has been on quite a few supplements/medications to help her body deal with the extra wear and tear of being a tripod. These include: Duralactin, Dausuquin with MSM, Adequan injections, Krill Oil (chemo messed her digestive system up, and she can no longer handle regular fish oil, but krill oil is ok - go figure), Turmeric, acid blockers/reducers, Tramadol, Gabapentin, and Methocarbamol.

 

I had no idea that Twiggy could do so well for so long, and I never reduced her activity level. I did, however, let her determine how far/fast she would take her recovery. One thing I was very glad to be warned about was a behavior common initially among front-leg amps like your girl & Twiggy - they will often rear up on their hind legs and scream for all they're worth. It's terrifying, & initially Twiggy did this almost every time she tried to stand up. This diminished & eventually went away over the first couple weeks post-amp. This may be in part a pain reaction, but I believe it is also a fear/shock reaction to not understanding why there is no leg where there is supposed to be one.

 

Hang in there - many of us here have been where you are & we are all pulling for you!

Wonderful info - thank you!

"On Dr. Couto's advice, I also gave Twiggy an Artemisinin supplement (which is OTC)."

 

I've wondered about this. I know he did a small trial with Artemisinin but can't find the results.

[NeylasMom]

FYI, as far as I know Dr. Kellogg is not practicing right now. If you have trouble reaching her, Turbotaina might be able to connect you if you send her a PM.

 

I'm sorry you're going through this and hope you can get your girl through it.

[carronstar]

I am so sorry for what you are going through. Osteo is a goddamned nightmare no matter what route you take.

 

This says it all. Hug and kiss your girl, do in your heart what you feel is the best for her and you will have done your best job.

[queenwinniesmom]

Oh, my gosh, you certainly didn't sound bitchy about an absolutely horrible and unfair situation. You are pushed to your limits as it is, just dealing with the difficult decisions, and the guilt and second guessing (which of course, aren't productive, but are totally normal and to be expected). I know there is not one of us who got through this ordeal without agonizing about what we were going to do, and then doubting that we did indeed do the right thing. Whatever decision you make, and have made, is because you know your girl better than anyone, and love her unconditionally.

 

That said, I think we also have to deal with not only the terrible realities, but the uncertainty of the hope (or fantasy) that everything will work out perfectly simply because we made the right decisions, and we did so out of love. The only thing I know for sure about osteo is that it's a crapshoot. Sometimes we beat the monster, sometimes we hold it at bay, and sometimes everything we do just isn't enough. In any case, each day is a gift that we must treasure so as not to let any future sadness steal the beauty and joy from the present.

 

I was lucky and blessed to have Winnie for 3 1/2 precious, and excellent, years after her amp at age 8. Like you, I was wracked with the uncertainty that comes along with the sadness, frustration, and even anger. The times before making any decision were always the hardest---you are thinking of it 24/7. Once you have a plan, you have a purpose. And you just pursue that. Many times, it gets worse, sometimes a LOT worse, before it gets better. But it DOES get better. Sometimes you'll look at your sweet girl and wish with all your heart that she was whole again. We often project our feelings onto animals who probably just want to get on with doing what they want to do. But just remember Dr. Couto's words---The stigma against being handicapped is not recognized in the animal world. And Greyhounds have 3 legs and a spare!

 

We were unable to do chemo because of finances, and because of our own, likely irrational, hesitation. We'd had a heartbreaking experience with our Patsy, starting chemo for lymphoma after several setbacks but with very good prognosis (she'd had her spleen removed successfully), only to have the cancer very quickly spread to her central nervous system. She was only 6, she was supposed to make it, and we ended up having to put her to sleep within months of the diagnosis. Our hearts were broken. With Winnie, we tried diet change (she got a steak every day for 3 years!), pain management (piroxicam), and Artemisinin. I'm not sure what helped---maybe it was just the stubbornness of the old girl, and her refusal to give up. I learned a lot from the Queen.

 

I know everyone's experience, while similar in the big ways, is different. What works for one, might not work for another. But there is so much good info out there (a lot you have seen here) that you can take and use. And there is a lot of support and understanding, which sometimes helps just as much. And please know that there is a lot of white light and "be well" thoughts streaming out to you both!

[Guest budsmom]

I have a very good friend whose grey girl was diagnosed with osteo earlier this year. She also agonized over what to do and ended up doing the amp and intended to participate in a study (maybe even the same one you were supposed to), but couldn't because her girl didn't weigh enough to be included. My friend opted not to do chemo, either, as it made her girl really ill & my friend was pregnant at the time and was concerned about the toxicity of the chemo. Carly, my friends dog, has done fantastic. She had her amp in March and when I last saw her in mid October she still looked good. My friend said that Carly was started to have some slightly noisy breath sounds, so they were preparing to hear that the cancer had metastasized to her lungs but that happens eventually regardless of the treatment. They've had 7 really great months with Carly so far, and she has been happy & healthy (not sick from chemo) the entire time.

 

You can only do what your heart tells you to do, which is never wrong. Just because you don't do the additional treatment doesn't mean an immediate death sentence, as Carly proves. I lost my little girl to osteo, also, and as someone else said it is a goddamned nightmare no matter what you do. Please try not to be hard on yourself or second guess yourself, your girl knows that you love her and are doing what you believe is right for her. Big hugs and healing thoughts to you and your girl!!!

[XTRAWLD]

I am grateful I haven't had to deal with an amp, but I have had to deal with cancer and treatment with chemo. Things don't always go as planned, and sometimes the road you travel changes. You are right, this forum and it's members help and support you in times of need. Turn to us if you need info and help and support, we'll try to help you as best we can. I agree with others, you didn't sound bitchy or petulant. We've all heard what that sounds like! This is an exceptional situation for you.

 

The first few weeks from what I understand from others' experiences are the most difficult, but she is at the vet now where they can care for her, monitor her and get her hopefully into a better state to be able to go home to you again so you can continue her care. When you get her home I'm certain she will change for the better with her mood and will begin to feel better overall. I know that is so hard to see right now, but your end goal is to have her bright and vibrant and back with you! Keep your eye on the prize.

 

Visiting her I'm sure will help her too, although I know it's likely heartbreaking. On other notes, is she eating well? Is she learning how to be a three legged dog? How has she been behaving otherwise? How is her spirit, etc.

 

And isn't Twiggy's story inspirational! She's a very lucky girl

Edited November 10, 2016 by XTRAWLD

[greysmom]

It was right around the time our Dude was starting his treatment that Dr Couto was finishing his artemisinin study in 2011. I can't find the actual article I read back then, but I believe he found that artemisinin was not effective in canine cancer patients, mostly because it doesn't build up high enough levels in the blood stream. Your oncologist may have updated information on dosage or usage.

[Guest got2now]

It was right around the time our Dude was starting his treatment that Dr Couto was finishing his artemisinin study in 2011. I can't find the actual article I read back then, but I believe he found that artemisinin was not effective in canine cancer patients, mostly because it doesn't build up high enough levels in the blood stream. Your oncologist may have updated information on dosage or usage.

Thank you - I will ask him!

FYI, as far as I know Dr. Kellogg is not practicing right now. If you have trouble reaching her, Turbotaina might be able to connect you if you send her a PM.

 

I'm sorry you're going through this and hope you can get your girl through it.

I spoke with her today, and she was more than helpful and very kind. You are right that she is not practicing, but she was generous to me with her time and followed up after our convo - thank you!

 

 

And isn't Twiggy's story inspirational! She's a very lucky girl

 

 

Totally agree!

I'm not sure what helped---maybe it was just the stubbornness of the old girl, and her refusal to give up. I learned a lot from the Queen.

 

Love this

[Guest got2now]

I spoke with several people today, including our vet, and read all of your great comments and advice. Then I drove to Athens to see CoCo. I met with the head of the study for UGA, the head of surgery, and the hospital administrator. We all restated our positions calmly and politely, at first. We ended up squabbling and arguing over semantics. We didn't yell, call each other names or curse, but it was heated, and tempers flared. We were getting nowhere. At the end, they actually did (kind of) offer to honor our deal, but I was so mad, and we all agreed that I didn't have confidence that they would do what they said, so we agreed that I would bring CoCo home and pursue treatment in Atlanta. We have an appt to see our regular vet tomorrow.

 

There were some tense moments that seem comic now. For example, the head of surgery doc got so mad that she snatched some papers out of my hand. When she tried to do it again, I put them out of her reach and asked her to please not angrily snatch things out of my hand. My daughters used to fight with that same insincere politeness when they were little. After I said said that about not snatching things, she said that I was being rude. So I said she was being rude. It was so ridiculous that it makes me laugh now that it's over.

 

But the real sign from beyond was that CoCo, whom they said was doing great and had a healthy appetite, looked thinner than I've ever seen her. Her thin skin and lack of body fat contributed to problems during the original amp surgery when the intern struggled with closing the incision. And they wanted to put her under and redo that same problem area this afternoon. So I weighed her on their scales, and she had lost 5 pounds in the 6 days they had her. The woman in charge of the study (who is not involved with the dogs or owners) replied without even checking that she weighed exactly the same today as she did 6 days ago when she came back for the incision problems. And the discharge papers reflected that her weight was the same. But their same scale showed she was 5 pounds lighter, and she looked almost emaciated. Today was the last time I'll have to argue with UGA about whether or not the grass is really green.

 

Anyway, we are all so happy that she's home and will fatten her up before her next surgery, so that whomever we find to re-close the wound will have something to work with. Now she can be home to heal, and we won't need to worry how long it takes to clear this infection. She can start chemo when she's healed.

 

Although UGA was a mess and a financial boondoggle, I feel so much better now that she's home and I can consult with the wonderful vet group we've used for the last 10 years. Yay

[Guest got2now]

I read nothing petulant or bitchy in your previous post.

 

Please be kind to yourself.

 

I'm so sorry to hear of the exclusion from the trial. What an awful disappointment.

 

I was very fortunate to not have to battle osteo with my buddy Aston, but in his progressive illness and complications, I walked the tightrope between quality-of-life, risk/reward/side-effects and financial costs. It is no easy thing, and it's not a decision that is easily understood unless you're stuck in the middle of it. And even then....

 

I wish you peace and clarity, and remember -- When you make decisions, especially difficult ones like this, you are doing the best you can with the information you have at the time. Be leery of using hindsight to gauge whether you did right; it's just a way to beat up on yourself. You couldn't have foreseen this outcome.

 

Your decisions have been made out of love for your sweetheart. You can do no wrong there. Follow your heart.

 

We are here for you.

 

This says it all. Hug and kiss your girl, do in your heart what you feel is the best for her and you will have done your best job.

 

On other notes, is she eating well? Is she learning how to be a three legged dog? How has she been behaving otherwise? How is her spirit, etc.

 

Aside from the infection, she's doing great in all areas and is so darn cute when she does her little hop-run thing

[NeylasMom]

Very glad you have her home. A few things didn't sound right to me. I would recommend having Dr Couto consult if you'll be moving forward with your regular vet. He's worth his weight in gold.

 

Hope she heals up quickly.

[Neighsayer]

Glad she is home. Sending healing thoughts!

[Guest goofydog]

I spoke with several people today, including our vet, and read all of your great comments and advice. Then I drove to Athens to see CoCo. I met with the head of the study for UGA, the head of surgery, and the hospital administrator. We all restated our positions calmly and politely, at first. We ended up squabbling and arguing over semantics. We didn't yell, call each other names or curse, but it was heated, and tempers flared. We were getting nowhere. At the end, they actually did (kind of) offer to honor our deal, but I was so mad, and we all agreed that I didn't have confidence that they would do what they said, so we agreed that I would bring CoCo home and pursue treatment in Atlanta. We have an appt to see our regular vet tomorrow.

 

There were some tense moments that seem comic now. For example, the head of surgery doc got so mad that she snatched some papers out of my hand. When she tried to do it again, I put them out of her reach and asked her to please not angrily snatch things out of my hand. My daughters used to fight with that same insincere politeness when they were little. After I said said that about not snatching things, she said that I was being rude. So I said she was being rude. It was so ridiculous that it makes me laugh now that it's over.

 

But the real sign from beyond was that CoCo, whom they said was doing great and had a healthy appetite, looked thinner than I've ever seen her. Her thin skin and lack of body fat contributed to problems during the original amp surgery when the intern struggled with closing the incision. And they wanted to put her under and redo that same problem area this afternoon. So I weighed her on their scales, and she had lost 5 pounds in the 6 days they had her. The woman in charge of the study (who is not involved with the dogs or owners) replied without even checking that she weighed exactly the same today as she did 6 days ago when she came back for the incision problems. And the discharge papers reflected that her weight was the same. But their same scale showed she was 5 pounds lighter, and she looked almost emaciated. Today was the last time I'll have to argue with UGA about whether or not the grass is really green.

 

Anyway, we are all so happy that she's home and will fatten her up before her next surgery, so that whomever we find to re-close the wound will have something to work with. Now she can be home to heal, and we won't need to worry how long it takes to clear this infection. She can start chemo when she's healed.

 

Although UGA was a mess and a financial boondoggle, I feel so much better now that she's home and I can consult with the wonderful vet group we've used for the last 10 years. Yay

Please consider a consult with Dr. Toby Carmichael at Lake City Animal Hospital in Acworth. He Has been the group vet for SEGA for many, many years. Heck, the adoption kennel is in his building! Dr. Toby is also very familiar with Dr. Couto and regularly does consults with him.

 

You also have Auburn University vet school in close proximity. Quite a few folks in the Atlanta area also go there with difficult cases.

 

Best wishes for your girl going forward. You are such a great hound Mom in seeking out the best possible care for CoCo.

[Guest got2now]

Please consider a consult with Dr. Toby Carmichael at Lake City Animal Hospital in Acworth. He Has been the group vet for SEGA for many, many years. Heck, the adoption kennel is in his building! Dr. Toby is also very familiar with Dr. Couto and regularly does consults with him.

 

You also have Auburn University vet school in close proximity. Quite a few folks in the Atlanta area also go there with difficult cases.

 

Best wishes for your girl going forward. You are such a great hound Mom in seeking out the best possible care for CoCo.

 

Great to know that greypeople have used Auburn for difficult cases. A greyt friend recommended Dr Toby to me, and I will call him tomorrow - thank you for the kind words!

Edited November 11, 2016 by got2now

[Guest got2now]

Saw our vet twice today for bandage changes. She showed me a picture of CoCo's wound. Oh my gosh, I almost cried right there. It is at least 3" deep and just as wide...it is, literally, a large gaping hole in her muscle, flush up against a major blood vessel. To think that a few days ago I was talking to the UGA vet about surgery followed by chemo this week. I could be sick just thinking about it.

 

My vet said that we will continue doing bandage changes and antibiotics for weeks, possibly months. Who knows when it will heal enough to close it surgically, then heal enough to start chemo. The surgery will have to be done by a specialist. At least she's home.

 

Anybody's grey had an abcess that large after an amputation? How long did it take to heal?

Edited November 11, 2016 by got2now

[greysmom]

I really don't think much of your former vet care right now.

 

FWIW, there have been many cases of wounds that bad (from various sources) that have healed up just fine. As long as she's eating and comfortable, just try to focus your ebergy on getting her well and don't worry about what comes after. The first two or three weeks are the hardest things you'll ever do, but you will get through them.

[XTRAWLD]

As long as she's eating and comfortable, just try to focus your ebergy on getting her well and don't worry about what comes after. The first two or three weeks are the hardest things you'll ever do, but you will get through them.

I totally agree.

[Guest got2now]

I really don't think much of your former vet care right now.

 

FWIW, there have been many cases of wounds that bad (from various sources) that have healed up just fine. As long as she's eating and comfortable, just try to focus your ebergy on getting her well and don't worry about what comes after. The first two or three weeks are the hardest things you'll ever do, but you will get through them.

I cannot recommend the care CoCo received at the UGA vet school or their subsequent treatment of me.

[XTRAWLD]

Hugs! She's home and she's with you. Keep us updated with her progress! I have nothing to offer but sympathy and hope. That sounds like an awful infection.

[Guest got2now]

Went for a bandage change today, and I asked our vet how big she would describe the abscess/infection CoCo has. She judged it to be a little bigger than her fist. Not good.

 

I had a consultation with Dr Toby Carmichael late this afternoon, after his assistant agreed to work me in to his fully booked schedule. My vets are spectacular and know a lot about greyhounds, but Dr. Carmichael, as several here have pointed out (thank you all), is the vet for a large ghound adoption group here in Atlanta. In fact, their kennel is in his basement.

 

Consulting with him was just what I needed (thank you again). He's very direct and gave me the bottom line about the abscess, the infection, and the chemo. He has done the surgery CoCo needs that I would have gone to a (non-greyhound) specialist for, and has done it many times. I am taking her in Monday morning for the surgery and will take her home that afternoon. It was so worth the hour drive to talk to him. I feel like I have a handle on what's going on now, which is the complete opposite of what happened at UGA.

 

Geez I am glad that you people told me to call him. A greyt friend recommended him to me many times, and I've heard about him for years, but I just never undertook the long drive because my vets are so awesome. But he is a greyhound expert, and, thank dog, a straight talker. And I think he knows how to handle this. Just having the facts and the truth makes me feel like I can handle whatever happens next.

 

It sounds cliche, but from the bottom of my heart, thank you so much for the kind words, commiserations and excellent advice. I have been a complete wreck over this and can't imagine how different this would be if there wasn't a GreyTalk...... CoCo's mom, Melissa

Edited November 12, 2016 by got2now

[greysmom]

You got this now! Keep us updated on CoCo's progress!