Snapping

[Silverfox]

I've written previously about Harry's anxiety about the outdoors. He doesn't enjoy going out in the garden or for walks so we try to keep them short and sweet. Unfortunately he won't just follow us out of the house and since almost day one (8 weeks ago) we usually have to go to his bed or wherever he's lying and pick his bum up to get him up. We always give him plenty of warning, beckoning him first (with no effect), putting his lead on and then lifting him up and nudging him out the door.

 

We went away last weekend for a few days and our friends stayed at our house to look after him. They've met him on a few occasions and walked him but he doesn't know them too well. Unfortunately, when my friend tried to get him up and out for a walk, he growled at her and snapped/barked in her face. We couldn't believe it when she told us but understood that he must have been scared as he's not used to anyone else handling him in that way. She was ok about it and admitted that she should have quit when he first growled.

 

Anyway, we got home on Monday and he seemed fine. However, last night I tried to get him up last thing to take him out and he did the same thing with me. I was pretty shocked and I quite firmly shouted no! Then along with the other half, we both had to lift him.

 

Tonight the same thing happened again but this time the other half was on the receiving end and was a little shaken up. We knew we couldn't just leave him to it because he needs to go out before bed, so we had to muzzle him and then lift him, which broke my heart a bit as we haven't muzzled him since the first few days on his walks.

 

On both occasions, he didn't growl beforehand, he just snapped.

 

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced anything similar? He obviously doesn't like us lifting him but has always let us do it up until now. We'd rather not have to do it but if we didn't, we'd have to sit and wait until he gets up which isn't very often!

 

He's been taking Zylkene, prescribed by the vet, for a week now but I think it's yet to kick in. I think our weekend away probably set him back a little bit and also, it's really hot here in the UK at the moment so it's possible he's a little irritable anyway.

 

Any advice?

Edited July 1, 2015 by Silverfox

[Time4ANap]

He's warning you that he's not comfortable with your actions. He may have space issues which is not uncommon if you intrude on a hound's bed or what he considers to be his "safe zone."

 

The next step is a bite, so you need to stop trying to pick him up and move him. I have a dog who has space issues and will bite - I'm very serious that you need to stop before someone gets hurt and there is a bigger issue or your dog ends up being labeled as vicious for something that may just be him being a dog and trying to tell you that he doesn't like what you are doing to him.. The snap may be his warning, because if he wanted to bite, he most likely would.

 

Training is definitely needed to get him to do the turnout and follow commands, but I am going to let those who have a better handle on training provide that input so that hopefully you can get him into a turnout routine much more easily.

 

I hope you can get something resolved, but at this point I would also consult your adoption group and let them know about the issue to see if they can provide some assistance with training or have an adopter who has had similar experiences with a dog help you out.

[Guest Memphsmom]

I'm no pro with dogs, but is he very food motivated? Maybe a high value treat like a little piece of hot-dog or chicken could get him up and off his bed. Once he is out of his safe place it might be safer to try and collar and leash him and lead him out of the house, keeping high value treats on hand to encourage. Also maybe getting him to get up earlier before you need him to so you can take your time and be very patient. I'm sure others with more experience here have much better ideas. I rarely touch Memphis in his bed, but he defiantly knows the sound of the refrigerator door opening.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Memphsmom

[Guest Scouts_mom]

First, I want to say that if he had wanted to bite you, he would have. He was just giving you a warning that he didn't like what you were doing.

 

Have you tried snapping his leash to his collar, then urging him to get up? That's the only suggestion I have. I sometimes have to push my sleepyheads off the couch when it is walk time. But there is no growling or snapping involved.

[GeorgeofNE]

Hmmm. He REALLY doesn't like going outdoors, does he?

 

I have no idea what that medication you referenced is, I am guessing you're not in the USA--if he were my dog, I'd have a through medical work up done. I'd also be contacting the place I got him from and ask them to come over and observe what is going on. Maybe a second set of experienced eyes will catch something?

[Silverfox]

Thanks. I contacted the adoption group today who said that because he 'got away with it' when he snapped at my friend, he's now trying it on with us. They said not to let him win and to be firm with him but to try and teach him to come to us without having to lift him.

 

Will try the high value treats but he doesn't usually respond that well to them. Any tips?

 

We will persevere without lifting him. However, we've tried putting his lead on in the past and using that but he just doesn't budge. I suppose it will need to be a battle of wills and we'll have to tug on the lead until he eventually gets up. I think allowing more time in our routine to be patient is a good idea!

 

Obviously this doesn't address why he's so afraid to go outside. We have had him checked over medically and he got a clean bill of health so it must just be his fear of relatively new, noisy surroundings.

 

One other thing that makes it difficult is that he has a few safe places - his bed downstairs, a bed in our room and the rug in the spare room which he often goes to when we're out.

[Feisty49]

I have no advice about getting him to get up and go out. I have a couple of questions, though.

 

Does he do this every time you want him to go out?

How many times a day do you try to get him to go outside?

If you didn't "ask" him to go out, would he pee and poo in the house?

 

These questions are prompted by my wondering if you're asking him too often to go out. It's a good idea to give a dog the opportunity to P&P four times a day, but maybe he doesn't need that many times.

[Guest Memphsmom]

As far as high value treats go, I think its just a matter of trial and error. You may have to try a few things to find the one that really pushes his buttons. I knew a trainer once who swore by liver. Some dogs get that glazed over look in their eyes when you give them a whiff of yogurt. Some dogs love peanut butter, Memphis hates it, but he loves, loves cucumbers ( he is a very strange dog) There is most likely something out there that he will jump through hoops for.

If you can't get him up with food, maybe try a squeaky toy or some other object that excites him. reward him with play time, hopefully in the garden.

Edited July 2, 2015 by Memphsmom

[Fruitycake]

Is there the possibility of training him to get up in the evenings by withholding a fairly good sized portion of his meal until nighttime? And then randomize whether he is going out first or eating before you take him out? Our Monty isn't terribly fond of his last night outing, but if you open the food cupboard he comes running (about 80% of the time he gets fed after walking that last walk, but it used to be less often). Actually, any time someone bumps into or otherwise makes noise with that door he comes running! We use that to encourage him to move, even if we don't end up giving him anything.

 

That said, Monty is also a super enthusiastic eater (thanks, phenobarbitol!), so he's easy to reward with food. He will also come running when he hears me scrape out any food can (cat or human), because he gets the rincing water from canned cat food or tuna or even vegetables. Crazy dog is crazy about food, even if it is imaginary.

[Time4ANap]

We originally trained Rocket to go out immediately after he eats. Without fail, we always go to the door when he is done eating. Once he was in that habit, we found it was easiest to give him a final snack to do the last turnout. He gets a couple tablespoons of non fat vanilla ice cream each night, and then goes right outside for turnout. Ice cream is his high value treat, and is also the test that I use when I think he isn't feeling well. If he ever turns down ice cream, it is an automatic trip to the vet because something is wrong.

 

I also found that he will come back to the door after he pees as if he is done. Based on what I know to be his routine, he doesn't get back in until he has pooped twice on the last turnout. He will come back to the door each time, but if it doesn't open, he goes back out in the yard and takes care of business.

 

Once you find the treat works for him to get him outside, make sure he doesn't get it until he is out the door so he knows that he has to go out to get it. If he gets it first, he will run and lay down again. The hounds know all of the tricks.

[Silverfox]

Feisty49 - we get him up 3/4 times a day to go out. Once at 7am, once about 7pm and once at 11pm. If we're at home in the day, we put him out in the afternoon but if we have a neighbour or the dog walker coming to check on him, they have never put him out because we didn't think he'd react well to someone else lifting him. They do try and coax him out but it's never worked.

 

If we don't let him out, he will have accidents in the house.

 

We'll try and coax him with different treats. Trial and error! I tried cheese tonight, which he likes, but he wouldn't get up to take a piece. I put his lead on but he lies back and lets his whole body go floppy. I spent about 10 minutes trying to coax him, tugging lightly on his lead and then a bit more forcefully but he wouldn't budge. In the end we had to muzzle him and then lift him in the usual way. I really don't know how else we'll get him to do it.

 

The last couple of days he wouldn't eat his dinner if we were in the room. I think he thought we'd put him out straight after (as that's what our visitors did) but tonight he seems to be over that and 'trusts' us again as he ate it earlier when I was with him.

 

I think holding back some of his dinner and the high value treats might be the way to go. We can only try.

[muddgirl]

My only other thought is the common housetraining trick of leaving the leash on when you are home and tying it to you so that the poor guy has no choice but to go where you go, including outside. It's also one part of the "Nothing in Life is Free" method which can help instill trust and confidence in a dog.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

I am going to go a different route here. It sounds like you are traumatizing him. He is afraid to go out, and now is starting to not want to eat when you are in the room. What is the drug he is on, and why? I would think the main reason he wont go out for you is because he doesnt trust you yet, and you are not doing things to instill trust in him. I have fosters that do the same thing, they dont like to go outside because they have to do stairs and stairs frighten them. You have to earn the trust of the hound.

 

I would suggest that every meal you give him from now on is by hand. Hand feed each and every meal. This will quickly form a bond with you and your hound which will help build trust faster. As mentioned before, as soon as he is done with his meal, snap the leash on and take him outside. Do not let him go lay down after you feed him. Make sure you feed him at the same time each day so his elimination cycle will line up with his eating schedule. As far as the end of the day turn-out, that will be a bit more complicated since he may or may not be upright. Be sure that he is upright before you try to take him outside.

 

What is the sleeping arrangements? I would suggest that you have him either in a crate in your bedroom, or have him gated into a small area just big enough for his bed. This way if you cannot get him outside at the end of the night, then he will not be able to roam and have an accident. If he is in a small space in the bedroom you will hear him stirring in the night and be able to take him out right away. That is when you take a treat with you and have a party when he eliminates outside.

 

It may seem a bit daunting, but dont fret, as you build trust with him, you will be surprised at what he will do for you when he trusts you.

 

Chad

[Silverfox]

Thanks Chad. I think you're right about us not earning his trust yet. We still have lots of work to do. The fact is, he's so fearful of the outside world that every time we take him out we 'betray' his trust because he just doesn't understand why he has to do it and we really do have to force him out. It's impossible to lure him.

 

When we get back inside, either from the garden or from his walk, he always comes to us for lots of stroking and petting, so he doesn't seem to hold it against us for too long. Until the next time he has to go out...

 

We don't like lifting him off his bed but we're trying to get him into a routine and it's the only way to get him outside. I don't want to pounce on him and put him out whenever he gets up off his bed. I want him to know the times when he is expected to go and the rest of the time I don't want him to be fearful that we're going to put him out (although I think he is anyway).

 

Incidentally, he's a lot more cooperative in the morning. He sleeps in our bedroom and although he obviously doesn't want to go downstairs and go for his walk (he shakes when his lead goes on), he goes along with it.

 

He does eat when we are in the room. That spell was just a couple of days when we got back from a weekend away. Our friends who looked after him had been putting him out after he'd eaten so I think he was wary of eating when we were around in case we did the same thing!

 

We're giving him Zylkene, prescribed by the vet, to help him with his anxiety. He's been having it for 3 weeks but it apparently takes 1-2 months to work.

 

Any ideas on how to build his trust would be appreciated. I realise it will take time.

 

I should also point out that he's very affectionate and loving with us. I don't want to paint a picture of a completely timid dog. It's just his fear of the outdoors that affects so much of our time together!

[bradymom]

I have to say that one of the best ways I built trust with Brady was sitting on the floor and feeding him his dinner a number of times. It does not have to be every meal or every night but it really helped with bonding and trust.

[Silverfox]

Thanks. I thought feeding him by hand might be worth a try. He took a handful then went back to bed! So I just put his bowl down in the usual way, called him and he came to get it.

 

Pretty much every suggestion I've heard or read just doesn't work with Harry! We've stopped walking him as of today because he's been really fearful this week and it's been almost impossible to get him out the door. He hates the garden too but I think it's a bit less intimidating so we're just going to take him out there instead. We're also going to stop lifting him off his bed and take other opportunities to put him out. For instance, when he greets us when we get home.

[smurfette]

Do you have someone with a grey in your area? Perhaps you can meet with another grey and go on walks together or go together in the garden. Sometimes seeing another dog doing those things helps to show that these things are not that scary.

When possible let the other grey visit you, roam free around your house, go into the garden, a nice female could do the trick.

Edited July 18, 2015 by smurfette

[Batmom]

FWIW, we generally take ours out when they get up on their own.

 

Two tricks that may be of help:

 

1. When you clip a lead on and want him to come with you, don't look at him. Face sideways or completely away from him. Less threatening.

 

2. Start naming and rewarding him for things he does on his own (in addition to things he does because you conned him into it). For example, you see him getting up? Cheerful "On your feet!" followed quickly by "Good boy!" and the most delicious treat you can think of -- sliver of poached chicken or cheddar cheese, mini Nutter Butter (a peanutbutter sandwich cookie -- irresistible to most dogs), hot dog slice ....

 

If he gets up soon after he went out and you don't want to take him out again, still do the naming and praise. You want him to feel he can get up without having to do the thing he fears (go outside). And, don't stress over the occasional time he gets up needing to go potty and you aren't quick enough to get him outside. Just "Let's go out!" and cheerfully convey him outdoors if you can catch him before he finishes pottying.

 

With a new dog, especially a wary or frightened one, I look at the day as an opportunity to cram in praise and little parties. If anyone in your area does clicker training, that might be worth looking into as it can help your sense of timing and help the dog learn more precisely what behavior is wanted.

 

Hugs and best luck to all of you.

[robinw]

Lots of praise. Try doing things in small steps, such as praise for getting him up, praise for getting him out the door, etc.

 

I also recommend you take a look at this website. I learned a lot from it. The trainer also does Skype consultations. She helped me a lot with Iker.

 

http://fearfuldogs.com/

[JohnF]

Also, if he is a 'worried' dog, you can start using Calming Signals techniques on him. You'll be able to more accurately read his body language and know if you're frightening him or maybe making him depressed. They are often very timid dogs at first and that's not unusual because they have just lost everything familiar to them. Let him come to seek you out and don't overwhelm him when he does. A friendly 'Hello' with a quick lick of your lips (it's actually in the Hello and dogs notice it), a yawn and look away, says that you're perfectly OK with him

 

Another thought springs to mind: Sleep-Startle aggression. Always make sure your grey is fully awake before touching him.

 

Which part of the UK are you in?

[Silverfox]

Thanks again everyone. Your advice is invaluable.

 

Batmom, that's a nice way of looking at things - as an opportunity to cram in lots of praise. We'll be sure to have a little celebration every time he gets up. He loves soft cheese, so that's his reward at the moment. We'll also take some cheese outside with us. He doesn't usually accept treats when we're out as he's too stressed out but we can at least make them available.

 

We live in London and we do know someone nearby with another grey. We walked them together once, which helped but we got a bit carried away and kept them out in the park for too long and Harry got quite stressed by the end of the walk. I think we'll invite them round again for a play in the garden and see how that goes!

 

Those calming signals are very useful! We're now licking our lips and yawning all over the place. We've also stopped approaching him when he's on his bed now so he can feel more safe and secure there. We used to go over for cuddles and he would sometimes turn his head away. We didn't realise that he probably found this a bit full-on!

 

Can I ask a question? At the moment, I'm upstairs with him on our bed. He sleeps up here at night (on his own bed) and when we're not home we have the door closed as we're scared he'll have an accident in here. He loves it up here and so I sometimes come up with him to relax, particularly at the weekend.

At the moment, he's laying forward but whenever I stroke him he lays flat out on his side. Then when I stop, he gets up again. He seems a bit restless. I'm just wondering if he's wanting me to stroke him or he's being submissive or what? Perhaps it's because he has his back to me. I think we're both still trying to work each other out!

 

I'll check out the fearful dogs site. That looks really useful! We have been thinking about getting a behaviourist involved just in case there was something simple we could do to make him less anxious.

[Guest lukas_mom]

Hi there, thank you for your post. I've learnt a lot from the replies that you got.

I have a something to add from my side and would also appreciate some urgent help on the following that relates to your problem(s).

My Luka-girl is now approx. 3.5months. She was very timid at first as she had a virus we had to fight with medication. We had to give her meds 3 times a day with a syringe squirted into her mouth. I tried doing it as fast and without to much stress for her every time. I think this however caused her to not like being held too much and now when I hold her and stroke her head/neck she suddenly becomes quite snappy and growls in her funny way and bites at my hand.

Also when she is in her bed where she obviously feels safe - one moment she is fine and allows me to take the hot-water bottle out from under her bedding to fill up again with hot water, and the next time she just starts snapping at me. This doesn't just happen when it comes to the hot-water bottle, but in general it seems at night, maybe when she is tired, then she gets very snappy.

This past week and a half she has however come into her own and is not so timid. She trots along when we go for walks, stops to sniff around and also now playing with some of her toys as well. So all in all she getting along really good - just the snappibg that is really worrying me.....

Any help will be most appreciated!!

[3greytjoys]

Hopefully, Harry's outings are improving a little since your OP, but thought I'd respond anyway. GTers have offered excellent advice about earning Harry's trust in a positive, respectful and loving way. Greyhounds are a very sensitive breed. They learn well when we can capture and reward their natural movements to shape desired "family pet" behaviors.

 

As others mentioned, might help to time potty outings when he's already standing up for a meal, etc. If he's not comfortable eating meals from your hands, he's likely still feeling too much distrust. Hand feeding meals works well when the human sits on the floor with human's head turned away (looking away from the dog). Dog is standing up. This way, a human is not leaning over the dog in a threatening way or appearing threatening by direct eye/face contact.

 

Please be careful to not challenge a hound with a human bossy/alpha attitude or it will force him to communicate his discomfort by acting more aggressively to make his point (bites). Negatively challenging dogs can change their temperaments by teaching them to distrust people now and in the future.

 

A few of other considerations:

 

Were you able to determine the root cause/s of Harry's discomfort about being outside?

Examples:

Weather too hot or rainy for the temperature sensitive Greyhound breed. (If hot, time outings in coolest times of day.)

Possible body soreness/pain from a previous injury, and/or from being picked-up.

Possible paw pad pain from a corn or foreign body sliver.

(A painful paw pad might become more obvious when a dog is walking on a hard surface vs. soft grass or carpeting.)

Previous or current walks too long for a recently retired racer who is physically accustomed to only 30-second short sprints (vs. having had months to build longer pet walking endurance, and building up tougher paw pads).

General fear of too much emotional stimulation outside in a new, scary environment (away from his old familiar kennel and mates).

Isolated fear/s of a particular scary thing or loud noise.

 

If outside fears are more likely his difficulty, make his new world much smaller so he isn't pushed beyond his comfort level.

Fear/stress hormones can become magnified, and last for days when animals are pushed beyond their comfort threshold. Better to wait for him to become completely comfortable and confident within his own small family environment before taking tiny baby steps in the world beyond.

 

I'd agree to skip walks and limit his potty area to just outside the house door until he feels more comfortable in his environment.

 

It's helpful to carefully watch dogs on medication to ensure the medication is affecting that individual dog as intended. Some anxiety medications work well on some dogs, but might increase anxiety in other dogs.

 

Hard to answer your question re: petting him while resting on the humans' bed, and him becoming restless. Watch closely for his early canine signals of discomfort. Most newly retired Greys are not accustomed to excessive petting, nor do they particularly enjoy it. Greyhounds are creatures of habit and routine. Harry might have felt uncomfortable up on the humans' bed, or sensed that it was an odd time of day to be upstairs, or concerned that he might miss another family member leave the house, etc. (One of our hounds becomes very restless if night bedtime is delayed for some reason.)

[Silverfox]

3greytjoys - thanks for your post. Everyone has some interesting insights and it's useful to take them on board.

 

Harry's trips out have improved slightly. He knows exactly why he's out there now and he's usually quite quick to do his business. However, he still shakes sometimes and actually getting him out the door is more difficult than ever.

 

It's definitely the new environment and unfamiliar noises that he's scared of. He's very sensitive to noise when he's outside, although when he's in the house there aren't many noises that phase him, just the usual stuff like the Hoover or particularly loud bangs. And even then he doesn't get scared. This is definitely an improvement since we got him.

 

We try to take him out when he's already on his feet but this isn't always possible. If we do it straight after his dinner, the next time we put his dinner out he won't get up to eat it while we're there. When we've put him out after he's followed us to bed, the next night he stays downstairs until he's sure it's safe to come up!

 

He isn't scared of us - he's very affectionate and he's starting to get quite playful - but a lot of his behaviour comes back to this fear of the outdoors. It seems to infiltrate everything else and he's wary of us.

 

I've started to occasionally feed him my hand and hopefully this will help us to bond.

 

I think it's got to the point where we'd like to get a behaviourist involved. It would be really useful to get a third party to witness the things we're all doing and perhaps suggest some solutions.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Hand feeding needs to be all the time, not occasionally. The hand feeding rapidly accelerates the bonding and trust building between you and your hound. I have had a hound that wouldn't even stay in the same room as me, but after 3 months of daily hand-feeding, she is my best little girl. It does take time, but I truly believe that hand feeding is the best way to go. Its easy and non-threatening (as long as you sit on the floor and have the food in your hand either behind you, or beside you without making eye contact).