Bad New Behavior--Advice Please!

[Guest KTPrime]

So, Optimus has recently developed the unfortunate habit of pooping inside. Specifically, it seems to happen in the morning, though there have been incidents in the evening if we go out unexpectedly. He just just seems completely uninterested in walking in the mornings. I take him out, he pees, then he goes to run back inside. If I try to direct him to keep walking, he just statues. I've tried waiting him out or enticing him with treats but he has zero interest (and he's incredibly stubborn when he doesn't want to walk). Then, usually within half an a hour to an hour, I'll find he's pooped on the floor, or BF will find it right after I leave.

This morning, I took him out, he peed, and dragged me back inside. I figured maybe I'd take my shower and try to take him out again. But, after I came out of shower, he had already pooped in the entryway. It's so odd because at any other time of the day, he'd come and whine at me when he needs to go outside, but in the morning he just wants to sneak off and poop. We had a similar problem last winter when he didn't want to go outside, but he was able to hold it until I got home. Now he's regularly pooping an hour after I've tried to walk him.

I think this may have gotten worse when we switched his food about a month ago after finding out he's allergic to chicken (and that his limited ingredient brown rice and lamb actually contained chicken). Now he's on Natural Balance sweet potato and venison and it seems like he's eliminating much more. I'm not sure if he's still adjusting or if this one just passes through him more quickly, or if the other one caused inflammation that caused him to go less.

This is even more of a problem because we're in the process of closing on our first house (yay!) and we're moving in a few weeks. Our whole place is carpet so I really don't want him to be pooping inside and ruining our carpet from day 1.

Any suggestions on how to get him to poop in the mornings? I'm going to try to put his jacket on but coldness doesn't seem to be the issue, it more seems like he's just tired and wants to get back to bed (after pooping on my floor, of course). BF will probably flip his lid if Optimus has accidents in the new house, and I'd really like to mitigate this issue now before we move.

I guess Optimus has always been only semi-reliable with house breaking. I do consider him to be house trained, but with the caveat that he can't really be trusted unless he has a 45-minute walk before I leave the house. He just doesn't seem inclined to hold it if he has to go, but I don't even know how to fix this if I can't even get him to go for a walk. Help please!

[Feisty49]

He needs to be walked until he poos, no matter how much *he* doesn't want to do it. I understand him planting himself and being stubborn. Stubborness is, IMO, one of the negative, and sometimes cute, Greyhound traits. You need to remember that we are the people. They are the dogs. He doesn't have the right to dictate to you. You say he dragged you back inside. You let him drag you back inside.

 

My girl Annie Banannie Whisker Face had the worst case of planting when I first got her. I had no experience with a dog who just stopped and stared into space. I remember not wanting to walk her for fear she'd stop -- and what the hell was I to do? LOL I couldn't drag her. I tried pushing. Nothing worked. I would get tears in my eyes. I lived in a small town and everybody knows everybody and I'd run into people in the bank or store and they'd say, "What's with Annie? She doesn't like to walk?" Then I had a trainer come to the house for an hour session to help me with a couple of issues.

 

The trick to getting a planted greyhound walking is to get his feet moving. The trainer had me hold Annie on a very short leash (no extension of the leash at all), with her head against my left thigh and then walk to my left, in a circle, pushing on her neck as I turned. As I came out of the circle, I kept on walking and Annie would come too. Another way to get feet moving is to gently, but firmly, give a shove on the shoulder area, with with your thigh or a hand, so that all 4 feet give a little jump and then gently pull on the leash (which is very short) and start walking. I always tossed in the word, "Come."

 

Also when you're walking Optimus, keep the leash short, keep walking and don't let him dictate when he wants to stop and sniff until you're comfortable knowing you can get him moving again. Even after 3 years, Annie occasionally will stop and stare. What DO they see? LOL I give her a few seconds and then I say, "Come now, Annie," and she moves because she knows if she doesn't the next thing will be a push on the shoulder.

 

You can do it. It takes some confidence and knowing that you are in charge, and I don't mean dominant. I mean Optimus needs to know that major decisions in his life are made by the people in his life. You wouldn't not take him to the vet just because he doesn't like it. He needs to walk, though he appears not to want to.

[Guest KTPrime]

Thanks for the advice! I've tried little pushes on his butt or nudging him with my legs, but I could only get him to move a couple feet before he stopped again. Recently I actually had to have my BF come and pick us up in the car because Optimus statued in front of BF's sister's house (they live across the street, apparently he wanted to go say hi and I couldn't get him to move for anything. So frustrating!) When he was younger, he always wanted to walk, any time, day or night. In the past couple of years he really only wants to walk when he wants to, and can be incredibly stubborn about it (and him weighing 80 lbs doesn't help).

I know I have to be more "in charge" but oh my god is that dog stubborn when he doesn't want to move. Did your trainer recommend any treats at all to motivate your pup to walk more?

[schultzlc]

I noticed that you mentioned that he did this last winter too...could it be that he's cold? Though I am not sure where you are located, when my hounds are out in chilly weather, they are much more inclined to stay out and do their business on a walk if they are wearing coats.

 

Good luck!

[Guest KTPrime]

It could be, I live in the DC metro area so it has started to get cold recently. But, he has no problem walking in the evenings when it's equally cold, it's pretty much a morning thing. I'm going to try putting his coat on tomorrow and use Feisty59's nudge method.

[greysmom]

If one nudge doesn't do it, use two, or three or four or however many you need to use.

 

At this point he has pretty much learned that if he keeps standing still you will eventually give in and do what he wants. If he's not responding to treats at all, find a *very* high value one and use that only for walking. Pay attention to him, he will likely indicate before he's going to stop, either by repeatedly staring in one place while walking, beginning to drag his feet, stopping to sniff at nothing over and over. Use the high value treat to distract him and keep him moving. When mine start doing this and I want to walk, I use a high happy voice and say "Come on!", shake the leash so it jingles, and drastically increase my walking pace (or even jog) for a few steps so they really have to move forward to keep up.

 

You can also reverse your course when he begins to statue. Use you leg to force his head/neck to turn with you, short leash, and move forward once his feet are moving. If he stops again, circle again. He will eventually learn that you are NOT going to let him stop until YOU want to stop, and he'll get bored walking the same half a block over and over.

[Guest fenix916]

I've mostly broken our boy of statue-ing, but it still happens once every now and then. Our guy has patterns or certain places in his walk route where statues. Becuase I can predict when he'll statue, I pick up my pace and walk very confidently in anticipation of it. This way he's got to fight me to stop, instead of me trying to fight him to get him to move. I'm also very careful to not jerk his leash at all. Also, when he does try to statue, I just ignore it and keep moving. When he falls back into line with me I praise him. Since I started this, I'd say he statues maybe 90% less.

[Feisty49]

Treats are always good for learning a new behavior. High-value are better for learning in the beginning. After a while, regular treats are fine. I never go out with Annie without little biscuits in a pocket just because I never know when a teaching moment will come up. I also use them on our walk to reinforce: stop, wait, come, etc. Not all on every walk but something on every walk. To avoid too many calories, I buy mini size biscuits. Most have only 13 to 17 calories a piece and I'll even break them in half. Annie's happy with any little tidbit when it comes to treats.

[Riverhound]

Does he crate? Can you stuff him in his crate after morning pee while you shower and dress, then do the poop walk after?

[Guest KTPrime]

No, we don't use a crate; I tried it when I first got him but he absolutely loses his mind in there. Thankfully, I actually got him to poop outside today! It took A LOT of nudging and he was really fighting me trying to get back to our apartment, but I managed to get him into the grassy area where he pooped and then immediately wanted to come back inside. I'd prefer he'd walk a little longer (since sometimes he poops more than once), but hopefully this will be enough to get him through the day without pooping inside.

I kind of can't blame him, as it was about 25^oF this morning. He has a thick winter jacket, but it's definitely unpleasant to be outside in this weather. Hopefully I'll come home to clean floors!

[NeylasMom]

Any chance he has a medical condition. Something like arthritis maybe, that could be worse off first thing in the morning or in the cold? The last thing you want to be doing is trying to physically force a dog who is in pain to walk.

 

As for the housetraining, if you don't crate him, use an x-pen to confine him to a small space (just his dog bed) and until he poops, he's in there. Or keep him tethered to you and the minute you see him starting to look like he's going to squat, you rush him outside, then reward heavily when he goes out there. He just can't have the option to go inside anymore, especially when you know he needs to go.

[silverfish]

He'll feel the cold more in the mornings, being warm after sleeping all night, so I'd definitely try the coat. Also, if he does have a problem like arthritis, he'll be stiffer in the morning than in the evening - and some people certainly do notice more aches and pains in the autumn when it's cooler and/or damper.

Another thing you could possibly try is taking him in the car to a different area. He may be less inclined to statue, being further from home, and he may be more inclined to perform because of all the different smells. Just a thought - you don't even have to go far, just a mile or so might be enough.

[Guest KTPrime]

I spoke too soon. Came home to poop AND pee on the floor today. Extremely frustrated with this since I did get him out this morning. Maybe the answer is a longer walk but it was fighting tooth and nail just to get him to pee and poop one time, I can't imagine I'd get him to go for a long walk. Perhaps I can try the driving thing and he'll be excited enough to actually walk for a while. It's just so inconsistent. I've taken him out for short walks like this and he's fine all day, and all of a sudden it's a problem. I wonder if his new food is making him have to go this much, though I don't know if that makes sense.

Also in the whine category... god it sucks to come home to pee and poop all over the floor.

WOW. Just went over to the corner where his food is kept, and found another poop pile. Is pooping three times in one day normal? It's normal consistency and all but I'm starting to think this new food just runs right through him or something. Wait, let me edit that. Just was reminded that bf took him out at 2am and he pooped and peed. So he pooped at 2 am, and 7 am, and then twice before I came home at six. Normal consistency but that seems pretty excessive. I'm really wondering if I should switch his food.

Edited November 18, 2014 by KTPrime

[Feisty49]

I wish I had advice or an answer for you. The only thing I can say is that 3+ poos is perfectly normal. My girl is pretty regular, doing 3 poos most days, but every once in a while, she'll toss in, or out, a 4th one. Walking generates the urge and we do a lot of walking.

[Batmom]

How is his weight? How much is he being fed?

[Brandiandwe]

I'd think that maybe you're feeding too much? But I'd also be walking for longer and keeping him warm at night so he's not so stiff in the morning.

 

ETA mine do 2-3 smallish poops per day on average and a couple do only one or two. So it definitely might be food related. Can you switch back to the other food and see if that improves?

Edited November 19, 2014 by Brandiandwe

[gracegirl]

Too much food might be part of the problem. Fenway is a skinny minnie and if I increase his food intake, he doesn't gain weight he just poops more. 2-3 poops is normal. More than that is probably not. Unless he's just going a small amount each time and not totally emptying, which might be the problem.

 

Have you tried having him sleep in 4 legged pajamas to see if that helps his achy bones?

 

I'd also suggest trying the car ride to go for a walk too. Good luck!

[Guest KTPrime]

His weight is stable, he's always around 77 or so. He gets 4 cups of food a day, usually split into 2 morning and night, though oftentimes he won't eat until I get home in the evening so his evening food gets put on top of his morning food.

I think I may go to the pet store tomorrow and exchange the new bag for something else, maybe this natural balance sweet potato and venison just isn't a good fit. I may try to find another brown rice and lamb limited ingredient, since he did okay on that one before minus some allergies due to chicken ingredients.

[silverfish]

You can certainly look at food, but 3 poops a day can be normal. If you do want to consider whether food is part of the problem, you'll need to look at his weight and general health before simply cutting down. It might be better to switch to a lower residue food.

 

You could also try going back to basics and starting up a nice solid, predictable routine. He gets his food at the same time every day. He gets fed, and half an hour later he goes out. Walk him at the same time each day etc.

 

Reading through your original post again, I'm wondering if this may partly be anxiety about you leaving the house for work? Is it possible that he's suffering a bit from SA and needs 'Alone Training'? It's just that you say he does it when you go out in the evening...

 

[NeylasMom]

His weight is stable, he's always around 77 or so. He gets 4 cups of food a day, usually split into 2 morning and night, though oftentimes he won't eat until I get home in the evening so his evening food gets put on top of his morning food.

 

Oh, well this may be your problem. If he's eating 4 cups of food in the evening, then yes, he's going to have a lot of poop through the night or the following morning. Can you stay with him while he eats his breakfast so he actually is eating 2 meals per day? That would be a good start. I would do that before switching foods if the new food is agreeing with him. Also, are you sure there's no other reason he's not eating his breakfast? Does he eat the entire meal in the evening with gusto? It could be he needs to lose a pound or two, or he may not particularly like the new food (in which case switching back may not be a bad idea).

 

I'd start with getting him to eat his breakfast in the AM though and see if that helps.

 

You also haven't answered my question about a potential medical problem. The fact that he doesn't want to take walks in the morning is troubling to me and I worry he may be in some pain, especially that the cold is exacerbating. I would want to have him checked out by a vet and in the meatime, follow the suggestions others have given on here to have him sleep in 4 legged pajamas (and maybe even leave them on for the walk, or switch to a coat) to see if that keeps him more comfortable and more willing to walk in the mornings so he can empty out.

Edited November 19, 2014 by NeylasMom

[Guest KTPrime]

His eating is really inconsistent, he's never really sat down and eaten his two cups at once, he kind of grazes when he feels like it. It's completely my fault for basically letting him set his eating schedule.

I don't think he has a medical problem, we've been to the vet a lot recently for other issues and they always said everything looks good. I may bring him back in though, now. I am definitely going to get him pajamas. I've been using his thick winter jacket for walks but it doesn't seem to help much, he's still dying to get back inside. I did get him to poop once this morning but I'm not sure that will be enough, since he still pooped inside yesterday. I think we may need to enlist the help of a behaviorist. I've completely lost control of this situation and basically have let him be in charge of when he eats, when he walks... it's not good. I know I need to get in control and set rules but we've gotten into some really bad habits and I'm not sure how to dig myself out of this hole.

I do think going in the house is related to his food, since it started happening right when we switched, but there are a lot of other problems going on as well that I need to address.

[NeylasMom]

Switch the food.

Start putting his bowl down and picking it up 20-30 minutes later. If he hasn't eaten, oh well. He won't starve himself, he'll figure out the new schedule.

Don't give him free time in the house when you know he needs to poop.

See the vet (consider an ortho) and ask them to check specifically for painfulness related to something like arthritis. Also have them check thoroughly for the possibility of corns (squeeze each toe individually to see if he pulls away with a specific one - that might indicate a corn is brewing).

Start using the pajamas.

Take really high value food (people food - chicken, roast beef, liverwurst, steak scraps) on your walks and reward him anytime he walks with you. If you're using a collar to walk him, consider switching to a harness just to change it up. You may have created an aversive situation where he doesn't want to walk so you pull on him, it's uncomfortable, walks have become more unpleasant. So just encourage him, happy sing song voice, if he moves with you at all, feed.

 

You're sure nothing happened outside that scared him that might explain him not wanting to walk? And his behavior otherwise continues to be normal?

 

ETA: Have you taken him outside since it's been cold without the coat? We've all been assuming this reluctance to walk has something to do with teh cold weather because that's when the change occurred, but maybe it's actually the coat? Does he freeze up regardless of whether he's wearing it or not?

Edited November 19, 2014 by NeylasMom

[Guest KTPrime]

Switch the food.

Start putting his bowl down and picking it up 20-30 minutes later. If he hasn't eaten, oh well. He won't starve himself, he'll figure out the new schedule.

Don't give him free time in the house when you know he needs to poop.

See the vet (consider an ortho) and ask them to check specifically for painfulness related to something like arthritis. Also have them check thoroughly for the possibility of corns (squeeze each toe individually to see if he pulls away with a specific one - that might indicate a corn is brewing).

Start using the pajamas.

Take really high value food (people food - chicken, roast beef, liverwurst, steak scraps) on your walks and reward him anytime he walks with you. If you're using a collar to walk him, consider switching to a harness just to change it up. You may have created an aversive situation where he doesn't want to walk so you pull on him, it's uncomfortable, walks have become more unpleasant. So just encourage him, happy sing song voice, if he moves with you at all, feed.

 

You're sure nothing happened outside that scared him that might explain him not wanting to walk? And his behavior otherwise continues to be normal?

 

ETA: Have you taken him outside since it's been cold without the coat? We've all been assuming this reluctance to walk has something to do with teh cold weather because that's when the change occurred, but maybe it's actually the coat? Does he freeze up regardless of whether he's wearing it or not?

First off, thank you so much for taking the time to give me this desperately needed advice. I just have a few questions: So say I try this new food situation where I get home at 6, take him for a walk and put down his food, then--whether he eats or not--pick it back up in 30 minutes. Is that it for the night? Do I try to feed him again, or do I just wait and try to feed him in the morning (again, just put it down for the 30 minutes and then if he doesn't eat that's it till I get home).

 

I will call my vet this week and discuss options, not sure if they have an ortho on staff or if they can recommend someone, but I'll get him checked out.

 

I can't think of anything that happened to make him not want to walk. It really seemed to coincide with the arrival of this delightful 25-30 degree weather. He wouldn't walk even without the coat, and I just started using it in the past couple of days to see if it would help (he's still very anxious to get back inside). Yesterday it was so bitterly cold he would only go out in short 5-minute bursts. Before this really cold weather rolled in, I could still get him to walk at night. Yesterday he was not having it, I think we must have taken him out ten times (another one of the problems, he doesn't have a consistent walking schedule, since he decides when he wants to walk. I take him out when he whines, which pretty much leads to him whining 24-7-. My fault of course).

 

ETA: And yes, otherwise his behavior is normal. Unfortunately normal for him pretty much means constant whining and us trying to figure out what the heck he wants and offering him food, walks, or couch space. We've reinforced this behavior so much that we've just gotten ourselves into a huge mess.

Edited November 19, 2014 by KTPrime

[Feisty49]

Yes re putting food down for 30 minutes and then picking it up, whether he eats or not, whether it be b'fast or supper. He may be hungry overnight, but he will learn that when food is in front of him, he needs to eat it or go without. Being hungry overnight may cause a problem which he may indicate by whining or walking around and generally being a pain. If this happens, I'd give him a biscuit to calm him down, but next evening, if he again doesn't eat his supper, give him a biscuit before you go to bed. You don't want to teach him that he's going to get a biscuit in the middle of the night every night.

 

Number of poos: We love poo talk! There are poo posts on the forum where people relate their dogs poo on every walk. It may be only a little bit, but they do it. As I think I said above, my girl poos 3-4 times a day but her routine is regular. First thing in the morning; 2 +/- hours later during morning walk; 5 +/- hours later during afternoon walk. If there's a 4th time, it's usually during the morning walk and it happens if she's had too many treats the previous day. (She loves marshmallows and sometimes I give into those begging brown eyes more than I should.)

 

Some more advice: Dig down deep and be confident about how to be around him and what you expect. He's a dog. You're a human. You wouldn't let your child run your household and your dog shouldn't either. Write down what you'd like him to do, or not do, and then make a plan to achieve it -- and follow through. Until you are 100% sure he's "got it," you need to keep a schedule and not give into that sad look our Greyhounds give us. You and he will get it, I'm sure.

Edited November 19, 2014 by Feisty49

[NeylasMom]

First off, thank you so much for taking the time to give me this desperately needed advice. I just have a few questions: So say I try this new food situation where I get home at 6, take him for a walk and put down his food, then--whether he eats or not--pick it back up in 30 minutes. Is that it for the night? Do I try to feed him again, or do I just wait and try to feed him in the morning (again, just put it down for the 30 minutes and then if he doesn't eat that's it till I get home).

 

I will call my vet this week and discuss options, not sure if they have an ortho on staff or if they can recommend someone, but I'll get him checked out.

 

I can't think of anything that happened to make him not want to walk. It really seemed to coincide with the arrival of this delightful 25-30 degree weather. He wouldn't walk even without the coat, and I just started using it in the past couple of days to see if it would help (he's still very anxious to get back inside). Yesterday it was so bitterly cold he would only go out in short 5-minute bursts. Before this really cold weather rolled in, I could still get him to walk at night. Yesterday he was not having it, I think we must have taken him out ten times (another one of the problems, he doesn't have a consistent walking schedule, since he decides when he wants to walk. I take him out when he whines, which pretty much leads to him whining 24-7-. My fault of course).

 

ETA: And yes, otherwise his behavior is normal. Unfortunately normal for him pretty much means constant whining and us trying to figure out what the heck he wants and offering him food, walks, or couch space. We've reinforced this behavior so much that we've just gotten ourselves into a huge mess.

You're welcome. I hope some of it turns out to be helpful.

 

So re: food, yes, put it down, pull it up, don't offer it again until it's the next meal time. You can reoffer breakfast at dinner, but if he doesn't eat that, I would offer fresh food the following morning.

 

It sounds to me like some training help might not be a bad idea if for not other reason than to build your confidence about when to adjust to accommodate him and when to stick to your guns. In the meantime, my suggestion is to get him on a schedule and keep him on it. If he doesn't potty when you need him to, he's tethered or crated or penned so he doesn't have an accident. Whining gets ignored. Give him reasonable opportunities to go out to eliminate, especially as he adjusts to the new schedule. But otherwise, if he's whining and you know he doesn't need anything, ignore him. Basically, go back to square one.