Poop Fine Until Kibble Increased

[Guest gryhnd3]

Just wondering if anyone has any suggestions of perhaps more medical options need to be looked at, or whether I just need to keep trying more kibbles.

New-ish guy has had loose stool. Have had probably 4 fecals, for 3 of them, he had a lot of bacteria. First antibiotic vet gave didn't work, we tried increasing it for another 7 days, still didn't work, switched to another antibiotic. Finally we got a fecal with much lower bacteria (no rods I think the vet said, or at least not the extreme amount of them we had originally). Each time, we'd put him on chicken and rice while he was on the antibiotic, stool would get great, then we'd very, very gradually add in a kibble, then each time it would get way too lose again, back to the chicken and rice, and so on. He's had duck and potato, then wild game grain-free, then chicken. Last time we saw the vet (when fecal greatly improved), she gave him an antibiotic shot instead of pills and also a steroid shot as felt he was probably having some inflammation from all of the digestive issues. This time, chicken and rice did not work and he was not improving, so about 4 days after the shots, I took away the rice and gave several large spoonfuls of pumpkin with the boiled chicken. His stool immediately got better. So here we are trying another kibble, this one salmon and potato, again, gradual and also getting small amount of boiled potato, the chicken and the pumpkin with it. He's very thin, he was very thin when we got him and although he was up a few pounds a few weeks ago, he seems super thin to us right now. So here we are at 1 cup of the kibble, 1 cup of the boiled chicken, some potato and some pumpkin (started reducing it slightly) and I can see the poop going downhill (loose) again. Therefore, afraid to increase the kibble.

 

Could he truly be having problems with this many kibbles? Or a problem with kibble in general? I can't see that it is food in general as we get great poops when he was just on the chicken and rice and then later on the chicken and pumpkin. Other than this, he's perfectly healthy, happy, hungry, etc.

 

Appreciate any ideas.

[Time4ANap]

If he's doing great on Chicken and Rice, i would try a chicken and rice kibble,

 

Several of us who have hounds with tummy issues have had success with Precise Foundation Chicken Meal and Rice. It can be hard to find locally in some areas, but can be ordered online from Wag.com and Petflow,com as well as some other online suppliers. This kibble is highly digestible and works well for many hounds.

 

Here's a link to the food and there is a dealer locator at the top of the page. http://precisepet.com/dog-formulas/precise/dry/foundation/

 

Good luck. it takes lots of trial and error and tons of patience.

Edited June 11, 2014 by Time4ANap

[Guest gryhnd3]

Thanks, he did great on chicken and rice every time he was on an antibiotic, until the last time when he just got an antibiotic shot, that time, each day it got worse and worse until I took away the rice and substituted with pumpkin, so it seemed that rice was bothering him, at least this last time. He's our 6th grey but we've never had this many food issues before, guess we were just fortunate. Thanks for the info on that food, I have not tried it before and do order from wag.com. Was beginning to think he's got a problem with kibble in general.

[Guest sireltonsmom]

Greys don't all adjust well to sudden and complete kibble changes. Many of us add a bit at a time and a bit less of what we are weaning them from. Combined with his digestive issues, it may just be too much. If your past kids did adjust, you WERE lucky. LOL. Good luck. Poor boy!

[Guest gryhnd3]

I think I am going slowly - usually 1/4 cup of the kibble for several days, then 1/2 cup for several days...I am also concerned about changing too often as well, so I think I will cut back from the 1 cup to 3/4 of this kibble and continue it for another week or so, I just don't want to be switching him too much either. When I do a switch, it's always been to no kibble (chicken and rice, and now chicken and pumpkin since the rice stopped working) until things clear up, then slowly adding the new kibble in. It would be nice if it had not been a kibble problem, but only the bacteria in his fecals, but I guess that is not the case since the last fecal was good. Just bothering us how skinny he is but of course we can't load him up with extra food right now due to the sensitivity . The vet did mention that she was wondering if he was absorbing all of the nutrients right now (we are giving him a vitamin also). She also had at one point thought perhaps he was getting the bacteria from the food, but it's been several what I consider good brands, so I don't think that could be the case (Fromm, Nature's Variety Prairie, now Wellness Simple).

[Batmom]

Feces consists mostly of rod-shaped bacteria -- that is normal. Maybe your vet was talking about white cells or hypothesizing an imbalance in types of bacteria or presence of inappropriate bacteria? There are some tests that can be done for pathogenic (disease-causing) bacteria, and it might be worth looking into those.

 

Which antibiotic was he given? The most common antibiotic used for intestinal problems is metronidazole. The oral version has some anti-inflammatory benefit as well. If your dog was taking that and doing well on it, I would continue it for a longer period of time.

 

I've never had a dog improve with time on a given food, and I haven't found value to switching foods gradually. I'll sometimes give 50-50 old and new for a few days so I can make sure the new food isn't going to make things worse. Otherwise, I just switch.

[CharlieRhea]

The following site helped me immensely with one of my dogs who has EPI She always had "mashed potato " stools and lost a lot of weight in spite of feeding her a lot. Even if it is not EPI, exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, it covers IBS, SIBO and many other related conditions.

epi4dogs.com

I feed a couple of tablespoons of pumpkin to both my dogs, even the one without issues.

[Guest fenix916]

Agree on chicken and rice. We were giving our guy only homemade chicken, rice, and broth to settle his tummy. Then we tried to phase in new kibble. Some kibble obviously did not agree with him, even in tiny amounts. So we would then "reboot" his tummy on just chicken and rice, and once it settled down we'd try introducing a tiny bit of a new kibble.

 

In my very limited experience, when you find the right food you'll now. We're weening him onto Kirkland (Costco) adult signature chicken and rice right now--his poop is pretty firm on this, whereas everything else gave him the runs or very soft poop. Anyway, the bulk of his food is still homemade chicken, rice, and broth, but he's getting a half cup of kibble. We'll gradually up it.

[a_daerr]

Just an idea. Instead of all the grain free, limited ingredient, wholistic, organic stuff, try giving him Iams in the green bag. It's a mid-level food that's pretty cheap (don't let that scare you off). But there's a fiber source called "beet pulp" in it that seems to do the trick for a lot of greyhounds. Someone told me that several years ago on this forum, and my guy's diarrhea cleared up almost immediately. Definitely something to try before you go too far into prescription and homecooked diets.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Thanks all. Yes, he was on metronidazole at first, when that didn't clear it up, if I recall correctly, the dose was increased and the med was continued for another 7 days. Still didn't clear it up, so then he was moved to amoxicilin, I believe (I'd have to check paperwork). Judging by the pictures on the EPI website, I'd say he doesn't have that, but appreciate the info since I haven't heard of that.

Did try Science Diet (Healthy Balance version) at the vet's suggestion (as you know, some vets suggest only Purina, SD, etc.and this vet is not enamored of any "holistic" , etc. foods), but that was no better.

 

If the beet pulp in Iams is what helps, then does someone sell a separate beet pulp additive that could just be added to whatever kibble they are eating?

[a_daerr]

If the beet pulp in Iams is what helps, then does someone sell a separate beet pulp additive that could just be added to whatever kibble they are eating?

 

Easier, safer, and much cheaper to just buy the Iams. You *can* buy straight beet pulp, but it's hard to say how much to give, since most beet pulp is sold for equine use. If you use too much, it can make the stomach swell. It doesn't taste good either.

[Sambuca]

It took 8-9 foods to find one that worked for Bu. He was on Metamucil until we found the right food for him. It wasn't perfect, but better than nothing. He had had tons of tests and nothing was wrong. The only tests left were surgical and we didn't want to go there. He just has a sensitive belly.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Took him to the vet yesterday, he has lost weight. Right now he's been eating boiled chicken, pumpkin, potato and some kibble (Wellness Simple Salmon and Potato), so far I haven't gotten past 1 cup of the kibble, trying to avoid loose stool but vet said unless it's liquid, don't worry about that as much now as more important to get more calories in. Because he lost weight, she ran bloodwork to see if anything else is wrong and a pancreatic enzyme was low, still in normal range but at low end, so we are going to try pancreatic enzyme supplement and also give him 3 meals a day instead of two (which I had been doing occasionally) and see how that goes. Other than low wbc, the rest of his labwork was normal. Behavior-wise, he acts fine, happy to eat anything we give him. She said to stop the pumpkin and switch to sweet potato with skin on, so started that yesterday. Just need to get his weight up, I hope the enzymes work, and of course I hope he is okay with this food so we don't have to switch again, she said we need to give a food 4-6 weeks unless we've got watery diarrhea. I know others have different opinions on that, but she cautioned against changing food too quickly (which I don't think I have done, but I have not done 4-6 weeks on all of them). This is about the 5th food we've tried so far.

[Guest shanesmom]

Took quite a while to find the right kibble for Ace. His first months with me he had terrible gas and soft poop or diarrhea. I tried iams in the green bag after someone recommended it to me and the change was immediate. I chose to change quickly since the other stuff was not working and after the first day his poop was solid and the gas was gone. Hope you find what works for your guy. Ace has been on the iams for over 2 years and his poop practically bounces. As long as I only give him that and the dehydrated chicken I make. As soon as someone gives him milk bone treats or anything like that it starts getting soft again.

 

Hoping the new food your boy is on will be the right one for him. I know it's frustrating and that you're worried.

Edited June 20, 2014 by shanesmom

[a_daerr]

OP, you seem reluctant to try the IAMS. Just curious if there's a particular concern you have?

[CharlieRhea]

Hi gryhnd 3 Hope your pup is doing better. That EPI site I mentioned is where I purchase pancreatic enzymes from. Just thought i'd share as it is far less expensive than from the Vet. I would still get it through your Vet and see if it helps put weight on after a few weeks.

Also, sometimes B12 is low and shots of B12 can be given weekly for a month, after it is determined by a blood test that is.

Keep us up to date!

btw I printed a page from the epi4dogs.com website for my Vet and she gives it to some patients with tummy problems as info.

The woman who runs that site has done extensive research with Vets.

OP, you seem reluctant to try the IAMS. Just curious if there's a particular concern you have?

I'll probably get some flack for writing this as i'm sure many people feed Iams and their dogs do well. Read the ingredients, corn and other

fillers does not make for the best food. Eventually it catches up to you health wise.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Thanks, I was just reading about EPI again, it is sort of looking like he might have that, the article I read mentioned bacteria in the intestines and he kept having that as well. I am really hoping the enzymes will show an improvement soon. I think she gave me enough tablets for the 2-3 week period that we are going to try it. I'll check with her about checking B12 also, thanks.

 

Adaerr, I know plenty of people on here feed Iams and it works great for them, but I'm not crazy about the ingredients and rather not feed it. I'd also hate to be masking a medical problem by feeding it. Now that he has lost weight, there is more to it than the loose stool, and that's why the vet ran bloodwork.

[CharlieRhea]

Thanks, I was just reading about EPI again, it is sort of looking like he might have that, the article I read mentioned bacteria in the intestines and he kept having that as well. I am really hoping the enzymes will show an improvement soon. I think she gave me enough tablets for the 2-3 week period that we are going to try it. I'll check with her about checking B12 also, thanks.

 

Adaerr, I know plenty of people on here feed Iams and it works great for them, but I'm not crazy about the ingredients and rather not feed it. I'd also hate to be masking a medical problem by feeding it. Now that he has lost weight, there is more to it than the loose stool, and that's why the vet ran bloodwork.

Maybe tablets are new but I've only heard of the pancreatic enzyme powder. You mix it in their food and let sit for about 20 minutes. What it does is actually digest the food before the dog eats it, it is needed IF your dog has something like this where he can't digest food on his

own due to issues with the pancreas. My dog needed antibiotics for a long time to rid her of the bacteria due to SIBO. Not saying that your

pup has this but if he does don't worry. My German Shepherd, the one with the EPI is now 12 yrs old and doing great! She has put on weight,

still thin but not wasting away like she once was. I'd rather her on the thin side at her age anyway. Hang in and good luck and keep chin up!

PS Charlie my Greyhound is on much fewer treats as I think he has put on too much weight! I think it is because of years of trying to put

weight on Rhea my GSD. Different dogs, different needs!

[Guest fenix916]

Just throwing in another Kirkland (costco) food plug. Like Iams, it has beet pulp, but it's ingredients are generally better than Iams.

Edited June 20, 2014 by fenix916

[a_daerr]

No worries. To each his own.

 

I will say, though, I'd love to see some documentation from a medical journal or an unbiased third-party showing mid-range kibble (IAMS, Purina, Hill's, Kirkland) causes X, Y, and Z health problems in dogs.

[cleptogrey]

has he been on a regime of probiotics yet?

has tylan powder been considered as well as the possibility of giardia or another parasite(there is one killer that birds carry coxisomethingoranothere)?

 

i agree w/ alicia and a mid-range kibble might serve both your dog and pocket book. having owned and showed dogs in the past, pre iams,science diet, eukunaba...the first of the fancier kibbles....it was triumph, kennel bisket and the new purina pro plan that were around. we never had the choices of what's on the shelves today. lots of dogs/champions at mediocre kibble and lived long and prospered!

if you have any blue seal feed dealers locally a good alternative to both kirkland and iams can be blue seal lamb and rice or pork and barley crunchies kibble, blue seal has a vast array of foods, i stick with the "less is more" principle.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Right now his poops are very good. He is on probiotic every day and a vitamin. The enzyme is PancreVed tablets. No, the vets had not mentioned tylan powder. He did have Diarsanyl several times when he'd go back on a round of antibiotics. He would clear up on the antibiotics, but then as I increased kibble slowly, the poop would get worse. However, so far so good and we are up to 1 1/4 cup kibble as of today (rest of meal is chicken and sweet potato).

 

Eukunaba was one of the foods we tried, also Hill's Ideal Balance. It's possible some of the foods we tried previously would work now in conjunction with the tablets, assuming he does have pancreatic problem. If he does, the info on the tablets says that after diagnosis, the dog should be on a low fat, high carb, high protein diet for life, so I suppose I would have to change again, as right now he's eating 25% protein, 12% fat, grain-free salmon & potato. I wonder if he has two problems going on - pancreas issue and also sensitivity to a certain ingredient, whether that be a protein or something else. Or maybe it's all been from a pancreas issue and w/ the tablets, he'll be able to eat other foods.

 

There are so many dog foods on the market, it is overwhelming at times. I do not have an opinion on whether, for example, dogs should have grains or not. With this current food, I was just trying to find a limited ingredient food since we didn't know what the problem was.

 

Just like people, you see someone die of cancer who was only 50, ate healthy (no "junk food"), didn't smoke, exercised, etc. , then you see someone else who smoked, had poor nutrition, etc. live to 100. I think it's very hard to pin down, so many things play a factor, environment, genetics, etc. Naturally I want to feed my dogs the healthiest food possible, but who knows which food that is, and sometimes the healthiest food is not going to work with that dog's particular ailments anyway.

[Walliered]

I had an IBD Greyound and now I have one that has allergies. I feed her Wellness Limited Lamb and Oatmeal and it seems to be working. She is definitely allergic to Beef, Chicken and Turkey.

Also, if you find a food that works, Chewy.com is the best place to buy it. Their service is great and their prices are too. I have been using them for months with no problem.

[Guest gryhnd3]

Thanks, my husband was a bit sticker-shocked at the price of a bag of 21lbs of Wellness at PetSmart. (he normally does not buy their food). I have ordered from Chewy.com as well and see it is cheaper there.

 

He is drinking more water now also, he was drinking a small amount prior to the addition of the pancreatic enzyme tablets, so I have to feel that something is wrong w/ his body and that the enzymes are helping in at least one way.

[Guest greylady]

We're dealing with mushy stool to.....especially in our new epi greyhound. Recently found that she has giardia. Found it in the ELISA test. They don't do this test in the adoption group. Ask your vet.

Edited July 25, 2014 by greylady