Truman... Super Frustrating, Embarrassing Behavior

[PatricksMom]

Chiming in with a somewhat hopeful report.

 

Leo spent 3 days at the dog sitter, she didn't need to use any of his anxiety medication, and he showed no signs of aggressiveness toward her small dog!!!! I think that the comfort of being part of a larger greyhound pack and the fact that he interacted with the small dog only off leash made a big difference.

 

He's a little nervous about the move (house is a mess, he did stairs really well in the apartment but is somewhat flummoxed by hardwood stairs), but we left him last night to go out for an hour, and no howling, no barking, no peeing. We took him for a walk four days after moving in (huge yard, wanted time for all those stress hormones to calm down from being in the apartment) and he looked a little nervous when he saw two dogs, but was verbally redirected fairly easily.

 

So I'm really hoping that this move, which should be permanent, has put him in a place physically and mentally where he isn't constantly stressed and we'll be able to make more progress with his issues and help him be happier. He may never be a farmer's market dog like Henry, where he would have to be on leash around a lot of non-greyhounds, but I think he can be less anxious and more happy in his life overall.

 

Thanks again to Neylasmom who pointed out we were dealing with fear aggression and that his situation in the apartment meant he had stress hormones in his system pretty much 24/7. You've helped out so much.

[NeylasMom]

 

Thanks again to Neylasmom who pointed out we were dealing with fear aggression and that his situation in the apartment meant he had stress hormones in his system pretty much 24/7. You've helped out so much.

Aw, thank you. I'm so glad you guys have made such good progress. I hope it continues.

 

And I have to thank you for bringing up the exact point I've been wanting to make in here, which is that part of your struggle Alicia may be repeated incidents of reactivity. I don't know without a more detailed history from you, but if he's going over threshold even every few days or a couple of times a week, I would say that he's probably never getting back to a place where he's not already somewhat predisposed to be set off again, if that makes sense? I would look at whether there are stressors you can eliminate or reduce. One potential big one is if he can see out of a window and react at dogs going by? Another is controlling his exposure on your walks, and having an emergency cue to get yourself out of situations where you know he won't be able to deal. Also having a very powerful tool to keep him focused on you while getting past potential triggers - I really strongly prefer "ready, get it" at this point and can post a video of how to train it if you'd like. I've been meaning to do that for a few people anyway. And I think you need to get his medication addressed, either a change in dosage, adding on something "natural" like l-theanine, or switching to another anti-anxiety. And of course I think you need the help of a good behaviorist, or ideally vet behaviorist to do this.

 

And on that note, I did not get any responses to my request for someone in Pittsburgh. If it's looking like you're going ot have to travel to someone, you might consider this person:

 

Meghan Herron

DVM, DACVB

The Ohio State University Veterinary Medical Center

601 Vernon L. Tharp St.

Columbus, OH 43210

office tel: 614.247.7382

office fax: 614.292.1454

http://vet.osu.edu/behavior

 

Have absolutely no experience with her, but maybe someone else here does? But Columbus would be significantly closer for you that Philly and she's at OSU so you have the benefit of greyhound knowledge there, although it's not likely Truman's issues are breed specific.

 

Anyway, for what that's worth.

[a_daerr]

All excellent information. I'm extremely busy gearing up for Grapehounds, but I plan to get busy on this when we get back.

[NeylasMom]

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. I could just show you "Ready, get it" there. Also, I think someone already mentioned it, but Emma Parson's Click to Calm has a lot of useful info.

[a_daerr]

Yeah, Jen, you'll probably see him acting bad at Grapehounds. My plan is to put him in an ex-pen behind my booth. That way, there will be a barrier between him and other dogs. He usually does okay if there's a 3-4 foot buffer. Any closer than that, he starts acting crazy.

 

Also, to answer your question, he does have above-threshold responses regularly. I'd say at least a few times per week. Very rarely does he have a calm or appropriate response to an unfamiliar, leashed dog. Sometimes it's an aggressive (fear) response. Sometimes it's more of an exuberant barking/jumping response, which might be interpreted as playful. But when he gets like this, I don't let him go any closer, because I can't predict what he's going to do.

 

Our emergency cue right now is 'hurry, hurry, hurry!' and we just run in the other direction. He loves to run, and he responds to that almost every time. I envy people who can do sit-stays or down-stays in that type of situation. Truman is very slow with those normally. Factor in a weird surface (gravel, sidewalk) and the stress of another dog, and getting a down-stay out of him would be near impossible.

 

That's another reason I'm reluctant to do more obedience classes. The ones we did were all so heavy in sits and sit-stays. Even with a ton of practice, I could never work him to the point where he'd do those fast or easily. I felt stupid walking around with the only dog who wouldn't sit.

[NeylasMom]

Yeah, sit or down stays aren't going to get your far in the face of that kind of distraction. Make sure you grab me at some point so I can show you ready, get it. I seriously can't tell you how huge of a help it's been with me for Skye.Do you remember what I look like?

[Brandiandwe]

This might not work, but with Paige's reactivity, the only thing I could do was wedge a chewy treat in her mouth just as she opened it to bark or as soon as I saw another dog. In the beginning a lot of treats were spat out, but gradually she began looking at me before launching, and then would chew down ferociously on the treat while fixating and quivering. Now it's a game, she'll gear up, prance and pull but keep watching me out of the corner of her eye for her treat. Minx! But the treats had to be chewy so jerky worked well. She wasn't and isn't food motivated either so I can only put it down to something about chewing of tasting something good. Because treats that were easily swallowed didn't work.

 

The other thing I've done recently is have Brandi on an Adaptil collar. It really settled her down and we're now seeing whether the training done over the past few weeks paid off. I don't know if you've tried it with Truman, but it really did take a lot of the edge off Boo's anxiety so would it be worth trying for Grapehounds?

[a_daerr]

I forgot to mention that. We do use DAP. I tried the collars for awhile without any noticeable difference. Now, I just give his martingale a few hits of the DAP spray before we go out somewhere. Can't hurt, might help.

 

Truman spits his treats out, unfortunately. Even high value stuff like roast beef, he'll refuse it... or he'll take it, then immediately spit it out.

[Brandiandwe]

I'd be DAPPING him up then for Grapehounds! You might also like to talk to your vet about a vitamin B1supplement. It's given to greys here who 'run their races in the kennel' - get so worked up and anxious that by the time they hit the track, they're exhausted. Brandi us on it and it also seems to help her a bit. I guess I'm really thinking about short term bridging solutions. Sorry I can't be more help.

[a_daerr]

Oh no, no worries! I appreciate the help. I wish there was an easy solution.

[MaryJane]

You might want to consider holding off going to specialists/behavior assessors and take a bit different approach for a while and see if it works. A simplistic approach would be to remove the stressors in his life and see if he improves. This would take a few months. You would first have to identify what causes fear/stress/overexcitement and then remove that from his environment. The intent would be to get him to a baseline where he is not "stimulated" - sort of a "zen place". Once he is at a "good place" for a few months, stressors could be added back slowly and increased/decreased depending what his behavior warrants. It could be that he will never be the type of dog that can handle much before he overloads. You mentioned that some of this behavior occurred after his neuter - by chance, did anything happen at the animal hospital ..... or, it could that the behavior has been heightened with the issues with Henry has recently gone through ....

 

I fear that going to new specialists and having his behavior assessed wold be just another stressful experience for him. Adding more drugs would simply dull his life experience although, that might eventually be necessary.

 

As I write this I think of a few shelters in Spain that do wonders with "damaged galgos". One that comes to mind is 112Carlotta (I think that is the name) and another is FBM. Maybe you can reach out to organizations like SAGE or SHUG (or GRIN) and see if they could put you in touch with one of the Spanish shelters (of course, small donations would help). They might be able to provide some suggestions that worked for them with their "damaged galgos".

 

 

edited to add -- you might want to check to see if there are holistic vets in your area that do acupuncture - I wouldn't suggest doing that now but, maybe later when Truman is more relaxed.

Edited May 6, 2014 by MaryJane

[a_daerr]

MaryJane, I thought that too. For the past two months, we've stopped going to obedience classes and dog parks altogether. I was hoping that we could take a break and eventually start again fresh. So the only thing we do now is leash-walk him on a trail by our house. Even with this drastic decrease in activities, he's still having aggressive incidents with other dogs just passing by. I don't know what else to do- I have to exercise him.

 

He had a semi-bad experience with the neuter because these gave him Ace, which gives him an opposite, restless effect. He spent about a day panting and pacing afterwards. But nothing too catastrophic- he had no problems with surgery or healing afterwards. If the neuter had any affect, it was probably a hormone issue.

 

Oh, and Henry's cancer diagnosis/treatment definitely increased his stress. That's when the compulsive licking started. He had suffered some loss, because Henry doesn't have the stamina that he used to. Our attention shifted to Henry too, so (I'm a little ashamed to admit) Truman's problems went on the back burner for awhile.

 

I'm going to FBM in September to volunteer for a week. I'll definitely be paying close attention to how they handle traumatized dogs.

[robinw]

I live with Iker. Start small. Treats in the house for just being himself, treats for coming when called, treats for getting up when you get up, etc. until he regularly accepts them. Then you can slowly start to give treats for behaviours you want him to repeat. Treats for walking out the door two inches, then back inside. Treats for walking outside two feet, then back inside, etc. Keep expanding the amount of time. change the locations, but always treats, but start SMALL.In the meantime, keep him away from the big stressors except for little bits at a time. Or accept the fact that he just might not be the sort of dog you can take out and do things with. Be bombproof,patient, don't tense up or get upset, keep your sense of humour and be very patient. I think you're nitpicking but that is just my opinion. I'm no expert, but what I do know is that two months is nothing.

Edited May 6, 2014 by robinw

[NeylasMom]

The issues with galgos like Iker are very different from what is going on with Truman. I am obviously in favor of eliminating stressors as much as possible, but there are clearly multiple issues here between the OCD behaviors, the reactivity, etc. that those of us can't really appreciate from afar, nor do any of us have the training to diagnose him and develop a treatment plan even if we could. I really think you should seek the help of a trained professional as soon as your schedule allows.

 

My only goal in giving you some advice is to try to give you tools to help him until you can get that professional help.

[rascalsmom]

I think Robin was only suggesting some very, very basic positive reinforcement. I don't think she was suggesting that Iker's and Truman's issues were the same in any way.

[greysmom]

Not to make light of Truman's problem, but to inject a bit of humor, Lilly has learne how to "jump" out of her martingale collar so that she can chew on it.

 

I watched her the other day - she sort of does a pouncing jump, over and over, until the collar gets up to headband status. Then she just swipes it off with her paw, and she's off to the races!

 

I think I need to find a chain link martingale for her! She's ruined three collars in as many days since learning this trick.

 

{{{sigh}}}

[robinw]

The issues with galgos like Iker are very different from what is going on with Truman. I am obviously in favor of eliminating stressors as much as possible, but there are clearly multiple issues here between the OCD behaviors, the reactivity, etc. that those of us can't really appreciate from afar, nor do any of us have the training to diagnose him and develop a treatment plan even if we could. I really think you should seek the help of a trained professional as soon as your schedule allows.

 

My only goal in giving you some advice is to try to give you tools to help him until you can get that professional help.

I was not in any way suggesting that Iker and Truman have the same problem. None of us know that. I was trying to give an example of how patience and positive reinforcement can be beneficial. That's all. I think we all have the same goals in mind. No matter the problem(s), patience and a sense of humour is a must.

Edited May 6, 2014 by robinw

[NeylasMom]

I was not in any way suggesting that Iker and Truman have the same problem. I was trying to give an example of how patience and positive reinforcement can be beneficial. that's all. BTW, I'm not sure you know what Iker's problems are, either, but that is besides the point.

Wow. And I was coming in here to respond to Rascalsmom's comment and say that my comment wasn't in any way directed at you and that you gave great advice for dealing with a traumatized and fearful dog.

Not to make light of Truman's problem, but to inject a bit of humor, Lilly has learne how to "jump" out of her martingale collar so that she can chew on it.

 

I watched her the other day - she sort of does a pouncing jump, over and over, until the collar gets up to headband status. Then she just swipes it off with her paw, and she's off to the races!

 

I think I need to find a chain link martingale for her! She's ruined three collars in as many days since learning this trick.

 

{{{sigh}}}

Front clip harness like an easy walk or freedom harness? Regardless of what you pick, before you do, please get video of that and share it with us. And who says greyhounds aren't smart?!

[inugrey]

If the goal is to reduce his stress level then he should not attend Grapehounds. No amount of fabulous techniques will help in an environment full of dogs and people who both lack self control.

[rascalsmom]

Yes, yes, yes.

[MaryJane]

The issues with galgos like Iker are very different from what is going on with Truman. I am obviously in favor of eliminating stressors as much as possible, but there are clearly multiple issues here between the OCD behaviors, the reactivity, etc. that those of us can't really appreciate from afar, nor do any of us have the training to diagnose him and develop a treatment plan even if we could. I really think you should seek the help of a trained professional as soon as your schedule allows.

 

My only goal in giving you some advice is to try to give you tools to help him until you can get that professional help.

 

The issues that Truman seems to be facing may not be that different from what galgos have faced or even greyhounds years ago when they were more severely traumatized (like the galgos now in Spain). I very much respect specialists but, in some cases, I think they may add more stress as in cases like this - they change routines, add drugs and get the dog confused. Sometimes it doesn't matter what is causing something .. you just treat the symptoms - I've learned that with my Lucy who has seizures. In this case, maybe treating the symptoms is what might help and in that case, taking away the stressors.

[MaryJane]

MaryJane, I thought that too. For the past two months, we've stopped going to obedience classes and dog parks altogether. I was hoping that we could take a break and eventually start again fresh. So the only thing we do now is leash-walk him on a trail by our house. Even with this drastic decrease in activities, he's still having aggressive incidents with other dogs just passing by. I don't know what else to do- I have to exercise him.

 

He had a semi-bad experience with the neuter because these gave him Ace, which gives him an opposite, restless effect. He spent about a day panting and pacing afterwards. But nothing too catastrophic- he had no problems with surgery or healing afterwards. If the neuter had any affect, it was probably a hormone issue.

 

Oh, and Henry's cancer diagnosis/treatment definitely increased his stress. That's when the compulsive licking started. He had suffered some loss, because Henry doesn't have the stamina that he used to. Our attention shifted to Henry too, so (I'm a little ashamed to admit) Truman's problems went on the back burner for awhile.

 

I'm going to FBM in September to volunteer for a week. I'll definitely be paying close attention to how they handle traumatized dogs.

 

 

My suggestion would be to exercise him where there are no other dogs at all - so no stressors. You'll need to do this for about 4 to 6 months before seeing any noticeable improvement although you might see tiny steps along the way. If he is on any anxiety medicine, that could be causing a problem too. You might want to start reading the literature on side effects on the meds he is on --- and it doesn't matter how long he was on it with no problems, sometimes these problems come up after being on meds for awhile.

 

That is really good of you to go to FBM to volunteer - you have a kind & generous heart to do this. Are you bringing dogs back?

[a_daerr]

If the goal is to reduce his stress level then he should not attend Grapehounds. No amount of fabulous techniques will help in an environment full of dogs and people who both lack self control.

I apologize if I'm jumping to conclusions, but I want to put this out there just in case others are reading the same implication I am. I'm NOT trying to put him through hell because I'm selfish and want to go on vacation. I'm registered to vend at Grapehounds- these events are how I make money to be able to afford the dogs. There are no other options but to board him, or to bring in an unfamiliar in-home pet-sitter. If I did either of those things, he'd would have a complete and total meltdown. I have turned it over again a million times in my head, and I know his condition better than anyone else. Leaving him at home (separate from his family and housemate) would be ten times worse than bringing him and trying to manage his anxiety at the event.

[Brandiandwe]

Alicia, you know what's best. Sometimes I think we need to make the call about the least worst choice. For the event, I'd look at talking about vitamin B. DAPP. How does he do in a crate? I have a big soft sided crate where I can drop the sides down - would he do better in a dark den where he can't see out or would hearing but not seeing be more stressful? Obviously keeping him safe behind your booth is what you're going to do, and trying to keep a safety distance is the way forward. Can you set the booth up to block everyone's view of him or create a visual barrier between him and everyone else? Some of that plastic fluro stuff they use at construction sites? Bird netting? Baby gates? I don't know what the set up is.....

[NeylasMom]

Can you set the booth up to block everyone's view of him or create a visual barrier between him and everyone else?

Something as simple as dark sheets would work.