Ongoing Ls Management - Chiro Or Acupuncture?

[NeylasMom]

So for the last couple of weeks, a lot of Zuri's LS symptoms have reappeared - dragging a lot on walks, balking at stairs, licking his front legs. There's a good chance that he's lost muscle mass along his spine again as a result of this crappy winter we've had so we may just need to get that muscle back on to get back to where we were, but in the meantime, I need to figure out what I can do to relieve his symptoms.

 

In the past, when he's had a little discomfort or when I know we're going to do extra exercise that might leave him a bit sore, I've put him on a short course of Robaxin and that's really helped (his muscles along his spine and in his groin get very tight and spasmy as a result of him overcompensating for the hind end weakness). I've got him back on it, but it doesn't seem to be relieving his symptoms like it usually does.

 

We've done PT at his ortho in the past - they do massage and cold laser therapy when he's spasm-y and needs work (underwater treadmill when we need to get muscle back on). I spoke with my regular vet about trying the cold laser therapy in her office the next time he needed it and she was up for trying it so I am going to call tomorrow to see if I can get him in for that ASAP as it did seem to help in the past.

 

What I'm wondering is whether I should also look into either chiro or acupuncture? Not sure if one would be more appropriate than the other in this case. Any thoughts? I know folks have mentioned using them in the past. I can look into both, but I would likely use 2 separate people (my vet does acunpuncture, but not chiro and I have used a chiro who will come to your home that I really like) so I will just pick one to start and see what it does, if anything.

[o_rooly]

Definitely look into acupuncture, and perhaps load him up on Adequan? Both have made a Huge difference as Aston's LS has progressed. He started to have episodes of weakness at the turn of the year that were so bad that he was almost squatting when he walked for up to 30 seconds at a time -- a session of acupuncture made these disappear, and then starting him on Adequan (injections 2x/week for 4 weeks is the loading regimen, from what I've gathered) has made it easier for him to remain totally upright when standing for extended periods.

As for chiro -- I took Aston to two sessions a few years ago, to help with his compensation for his corn. Looking back, I wish I had gotten a spinal xray before taking him -- the chiro didn't take one, and a: the sessions were very painful, and b: after each session, Aston suffered bad cramps/spasms that were painful enough for him to scream continuously for the duration. I don't know if this was a case of "it would get worse before it got better / better effects over time," but I wasn't willing to put Aston through more of it if I wasn't absolutely sure. I do know that Aston's body has always been pretty jacked up from that corn, which has been present since he got off the track (or away from the farm) at ~2 years old, based on the past medical records that I got from our adoption group. Sooo -- his compensating right side has always been incredibly tight in terms of musculature and fascia, even now that the corn is gone. His acupuncturist does massage him quite a bit during sessions, and I continue the work at home to keep things "even" in terms of tension (hopefully).

Edit: Have you tried gabapentin for Zuri? From what I can tell, and from my experience, it's a pretty benign "can't hurt/might help" drug. I'm not sure whether it's actually helped Aston, BUT since it doesn't seem to negatively affect him, either, we've kept it in for a shotgun effect against possible pain.

Edited March 10, 2014 by o_rooly

[KF_in_Georgia]

I'm with Aston's mom: no chiropractors without full spinal x-rays in advance. Even with x-rays, Sam's two sessions were painful (I don't think we had enough info about his lower back). In the second session, Sam came the closest to biting anyone that he ever did before or after. Even worse, the "improvement" after that second session lasted less than two weeks, and he was back to crying out every time he laid down. I couldn't put him through the chiro again; that's when we added methocarbamol to his tramadol.

[ZoomDoggy]

I tried six months worth of chiropractic treatments for Chancy's LS, and it did essentially nothing for her. A stupid and expensive mistake. However the acupuncture I tried with her later worked wonders!

[dante2zoe]

Brady gets gabapentin and robaxin daily. He is also getting adequan injections. This has worked well. We started with the injections and then moved to injections plus gabapentin and then added the robaxin. This winter has been horrific for him and I have added a half dose of previcox. My vet is currently studying acupuncture and will begin that on him once she is certified. She has not recommended chiro for him at all.

[NeylasMom]

Alrighty then, sounds like we'll start with acupuncture.

 

Edit: Have you tried gabapentin for Zuri? From what I can tell, and from my experience, it's a pretty benign "can't hurt/might help" drug. I'm not sure whether it's actually helped Aston, BUT since it doesn't seem to negatively affect him, either, we've kept it in for a shotgun effect against possible pain.

We've discussed it with his specialist periodically and I have some on hand if we decide he needs it, but thus far he hasn't felt he's needed it. At his last visit (this was months ago) he got an A+ on his report card. Dr. C. felt we had done our job getting his muscle mass back and he didn't see any indications that Zuri was uncomfortable or in need of pain medication except for the Robaxin as needed. Of course, things have changed, but I am pretty confident() that this is a result of muscle loss because of the weather. We still make sure we get out for walks, but the things that keep the muscle mass built up are hilly hikes and running off lead and we just haven't been able to do as much of either of those things this winter. So basically I'm hoping that we can manage any discomfort with laser therapy, acupuncture, and/or chiropractic until we can rebuild that muscle. We've been hiking the last 3 weekends and I'm hoping to get them to the dog park tomorrow so we're working on it. If we don't see some relief from our other efforts though I will start him on it.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Next winter, or maybe even now--this spring--you might want to try to find someplace that does hydrotherapy. That would be good for building or maintaining muscle mass without relying on his ability to stay on his feet for a lengthy period, and it wouldn't be interrupted by inclement weather.

[NeylasMom]

Next winter, or maybe even now--this spring--you might want to try to find someplace that does hydrotherapy. That would be good for building or maintaining muscle mass without relying on his ability to stay on his feet for a lengthy period, and it wouldn't be interrupted by inclement weather.

I mentioned in my first post that we did the underwater treadmill as part of his PT to build his muscle back up after he was diagnosed, but yes, I need to be more proactive next winter about getting him in for sessions if needed. After we "completed" our PT, I did continue to take him in periodically as needed when I felt like we weren't able to do what we needed on our own, but by the time winter rolled around, we had gotten the all clear and he was doing so well that I didn't really think about it.

[duncan41]

I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm. I-therm.

[NeylasMom]

I don't know what that is.

[GeorgeofNE]

It simply isn't possible to relieve LS with chiropractic adjustments. If you understand what the condition is, that's simple to understand.

 

No amount of shifting the spine will uncompress it.

 

 

[NeylasMom]

It simply isn't possible to relieve LS with chiropractic adjustments. If you understand what the condition is, that's simple to understand.

 

No amount of shifting the spine will uncompress it.

 

 

So condescending. I know what the condition is. I also know that Zuri's discomfort seems to come primarily, if not entirely from compensating for the hind end weakness. We already know that there is often muscle tightness and spasming and I could certainly imagine that his abnormal gait could lead to other alignment issues that a chiropractor might be able to help. Chiropractic work wasn't going to cure Nelya's bone cancer either, but it sure as hell made her more comfortable because she too had issues from not being completely weight bearing on the affected leg.

[Meandmy]

Jen, how did you determine that licking his front legs was a symptom of LS? What is it indicative of? I'm asking because Tori obsessively licks one of her front legs and I was thinking it was just one of her idiosynchrasies, but I'm wondering if it has anything to do with her hind-end weakness (not diagnosed as LS, but getting progressively weaker and more painful as she's getting older). I've never mentioned it to her vet and am wondering if maybe I should.

 

Thanks!

[o_rooly]

Hope Jen doesn't mind me pulling this from another thread -- I just asked her the same question about Zuri's leg-licking, since Aston's doing the same thing. Here's her response (from the Three Weeks 'Til Spring ABT thread):

I wouldn't disregard Aston's licking if it's not normal for him. When Zuri first started it, I was really unsure what was going on. I started a post in H&M after seeing my vet and got a lot of possible answers, but now I know for certain it is a symptom of his LS. I don't remember what the specialist said about why he would lick his front legs specifically - it may just be that his front legs are what are accessible and he's doing it to self-soothe. I don't know that he actually feels discomfort in the front legs, although that's a possibility as well as he is likely overcompensating by weight bearing more on his front legs.

 

If you search for "Zuri licking" in H&M you'll find the thread about the licking, as well as his LS threads. Not sure if they'll be helpful, but you never know. Mandsmom's posts in particular were helpful for me because she saw the same thing - the front leg licking - as a result of LS in Mandy.

 

On that note, I think I'm going to start a new thread. We need to do something else to manage this, but reading through those old threads made me think that I should revisit chiro or acupuncture. In the meantime, I will probably get him into my regular vet for some cold laser therapy to see if that helps.

[DunesMom]

FWIW, acupuncture helped my old boy Dune during his last few years dealing with LS.

 

It also helped me with knee pain pre-surgery and now with TOS pre-surgery. It can't fix the problem, but it worked better than any pain meds, without any side effects.

[Meandmy]

Thanks so much for sharing the info from the other thread about the licking - I'll definitely be bringing it up to my vet.

 

And now to try to be helpful to Jen, when Shadow was dealing with LS, he received both acupuncture and gentle chiropractic adjustments. Despite GeorgeofNE's not-so-helpful post, chiropractic can be benficial for dogs with LS. While it doesn't help the LS itself, other things can be pulled out of alignment as the dog tries to compensate for the weakness, and the chiropractice adjustments can really help alleviate that. Shadow was always out of alignment in his shoulders and lower neck because he carried his weight differently due to the LS.

 

I was lucky enough to have the same doctor do both the adjustments and the acupuncture. If I had to choose one or the other, though, I would definitely go the acupuncture route. I was amazed at how much more comfortable Shadow was with regular sessions.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Meandmy

[duncan41]

I don't know what that is.

 

Jen, go to www.kldmedical.net. I have emailed the company numerous times begging them to activate the list of Vets offering the service, but the tab has not been populated.

 

This is going to sound "too good to be true", but since I don't work for the company, and have nothing to gain by relating my experience, I can only promise you the truth.

My angel Suze had incontinence - the 24/7 kind, steady drip with the occasional total release. She had 3 treatments, 7 days apart and the incontinence stopped the night of the third treatment. Six months later, it started again, treated again and it stopped again.

Dalton, my newly adopted senior (he will be 11 next week), came to me with neurological deficits in his left rear leg; very slow to recover when the foot was placed in knuckles under position and dragging it while walking to a point where the nails bled. He would drag the food about every 10 steps while on our walks and now I hear the dragging sound about every 10 minutes and the nails on that foot show some growth!

Fuzz, my 10 year old, has bone spurs in her left front foot that cause considerable pain/limping. Three treatments and the limping disappeared.

Both Dalton and Fuzz continue with once a month maintenance treatments. Treatments are either 30 or 60 minutes depending on the condition - 30 minutes in our case since their conditions are chronic and localized. It is extremely comforting to know that they are receiving treatment/relief without drugs.

 

I live in a Florida coastal town, so we are not exactly in a hotbed of technological advancements, yet there are two holistic Vets within a 5 mile radius who have an I-therm machine. I know of a half dozen other Greyhound guardians who take their dogs for treatments regularly. It has been a godsend to each and every one.

 

BTW: This machine is not just for animals. It is being used on people, too. Rumor has it that OSU Vet school has one.

[NeylasMom]

 

Hope Jen doesn't mind me pulling this from another thread -- I just asked her the same question about Zuri's leg-licking, since Aston's doing the same thing. Here's her response (from the Three Weeks 'Til Spring ABT thread):

 

 

Not at all, saved me some work.

 

Dee also mentioned in response that she experienced the same thing so if I counted correctly that's at least 4 people that I know of that have seen front leg licking as a symptom of LS.

 

I was lucky enough to have the same doctor do both the adjustments and the acupuncture. If I had to choose one or the other, though, I would definitely go the acupuncture route. I was amazed at how much more comfortable Shadow was with regular sessions.

Thanks for this info. I actually would love to see someone who does both to see if we could maybe utilize both, but I confirmed that my vet is still doing acupuncture and the tech told me yesterday that they often use the cold laser in conjunction with it so we'll see how far we get with that for now.

 

Linda, I will also be investigating the i-therm. Thanks so much for that info, it sounds amazing!

 

 

So we had our cold laser appointment yesterday. I was eager to see if there was any improvement this morning (the tech said when she uses it on herself she usually notices the effects the following day - I honestly don't remember when I saw improvement when we were doing our PT at VOSM). Anyway, his muscles were still very spasm-y when we got up so I was concerned it hadn't helped, but he was SO much better on our walk this morning. Rather than dragging the entire time, he was heeling up by my side looking eagerly for treats for the large majority of it! Happy to have confirmation that it helps him, and that it translated to using the machine at my vet's office (apparently all of the machines are different).

 

Our next appt is in a week, but I'm thinking about squeezing another one in this Friday, just to get him over the hump and then we can look at adding acupunture on next week's visit when my vet will actually be in the office.

By the way, Zuri is the absolute best patient. The tech was so impressed with him. He always really enjoyed the PT sessions at VOSM - I always thought it was the massage, but apparently the laser therapy feels good too as he was dozing off during the treatment. She kept commenting on how good he was (he'll lay on one side, then move and lay on the other when asked and just patiently lays calmly through all of it). It's so amazing to see him do so well - there was a time when I would have been afraid that he would snap at the person for leaning over him or doing something else in "his space" that made him uncomfortable. Love my boy so much.

Edited March 12, 2014 by NeylasMom

[turbotaina]

Jen - if you want an underwater treadmill, Buckeystown Vet clinic (pretty close to me - up in Buckeystown, south of Frederick on Rt. 85) has one. Just throwing that out there for you. Also - have you discussed depo-medrol injections with your vet?

Edited March 12, 2014 by turbotaina

[NeylasMom]

Jen - if you want an underwater treadmill, Buckeystown Vet clinic (pretty close to me - up in Buckeystown, south of Frederick on Rt. 85) has one. Just throwing that out there for you. Also - have you discussed depo-medrol injections with your vet?

Thanks, but we can always go back to VOSM for the underwater treadmill. Probably a lot more costly there, but convenient at least.

 

The injections are in reserve for when things get bad. Dr. C and I have discussed them and he's on board with using them when we feel he needs them, but in my mind those will be a last resort. I'd rather try Gabapentin before doing those.

[turbotaina]

.

Thanks, but we can always go back to VOSM for the underwater treadmill. Probably a lot more costly there, but convenient at least.

 

The injections are in reserve for when things get bad. Dr. C and I have discussed them and he's on board with using them when we feel he needs them, but in my mind those will be a last resort. I'd rather try Gabapentin before doing those.

 

OK, good. Many vets won't consider it, so I'm glad he's open to the idea I didn't realize they had a water treadmill over there now. Turbo was a patient when he first opened the practice (actually, when Dr. C was still at VCA and whispered to me he was leaving and I should check out the practice ) so I'm sure they've made a ton of changes since I was there

Edited March 12, 2014 by turbotaina

[NeylasMom]

.

 

OK, good. Many vets won't consider it, so I'm glad he's open to the idea I didn't realize they had a water treadmill over there now. Turbo was a patient when he first opened the practice (actually, when Dr. C was still at VCA and whispered to me he was leaving and I should check out the practice ) so I'm sure they've made a ton of changes since I was there

Oh my gosh, you should go over there just to get the tour sometime. If it's been that long then I think it's in a completely new building at this point. They have a pool, 2 underwater treadmills, a gait analysis machine, all kinds of crazy stuff. But yeah, the underwater treadmill is what we used for Zuri's PT to get his back muscle built back up after he went through the first rounds of PT where we did massage, cold laser, and at home PT exercises to address the groin strain. I posted a video back when we started of him doing it - he was so scared the first time, but it only took a few sessions before he was walking in it like a champ.

[Burpdog]

Both, then let the vet choose based on the results. Also, laser is very good.