Serious Bite

[Guest k9soul]

I disagree in the case of the dogo, though I certainly would only bring him in public muzzled from now on. He had nearly died in freezing water the day before, he was then brought into a news studio with cameras, lights, lots of strangers, and held down restrained while a stranger got in his space repeatedly. When he bit, he immediately let go and did not try to maul her. All of these factors make an execution for the bite seem too drastic. He had never bitten before, and hopefully never did again. From what I read afterwards, he was not euthanized.

[Guest grey_dreams]

Oftentimes the universe gives you not what you want, but what you need. Working through a relationship like this lets you learn so much about yourself and about other sentient beings. Not saying it is for everyone, but the OP and her family seem to love the dog, and she said that the dog has a good personality except for this one thing. I wish them all well.

[greytpups]

We have been happy and proud Grey owners of our beloved brindle boy for two and a half years. (Got him when he was 4) We adore him and he has a great temperament. However, I suffered a very unexpected and very serious bite to my face last week. We have allowed him on the sofa and in hindsight (of course), this was a grave error on our part. The only time he gets "testy" and territorial is on the sofa. He will often growl unexpectedly, often without any provocation. We would scold him and make him leave the sofa (though, admittedly, probably not as consistently as we should). Once in a while, he would enjoy a brief cuddle on the sofa, but typically liked to be let be. I was on the sofa with him one night and he was on the other side. I approached him as he was awake and aware of me coming. I sat beside him and pet him, as he continued to be aware of me and receptive. It was when I leaned in toward his face, that without a warning, he snapped and bit my face very badly. I had to be rushed to the ER and the plastic surgeon was called in to stitch and repair it and a follow up reconstructive surgery was required on my lower lip.

Our family has been shocked and devastated by this and we just want to make the best decision that is in both our best interest and his. I understand that I made the grave error in judgement to attempt to be affectionate with him in a space and time that is not preferable for him. However, his reaction was shocking and very sudden. I should note that this is the third instance in the two and a half years -- though the first was due to a leg getting caught in a blanket and I was trying to untangle it and the second was with my daughter as she startled him by approaching him unexpectedly as he slept (and neither of those resulted in more than a slight break to the skin).

We have a "den" that is his space in the back of the house, it has a sofa just for him and two doorways, one closed off by a door and the other with a gate confining him. He is used to this space as it is where he spends his day when we are out and where he sleeps at night. So for the past week, he has been confined to his room and he has had no access to the family room or the sofa in there or anywhere else in the house. We have all been sure to spend time with and interact with him, myself included, though it took me several days before I was able or willing to. We are trying to treat him well but are exercising extreme caution and having limited physical contact with him.

We are a family of four, and our children (teens) have been very vocal about keeping him. I, too, don't think I could bear the thought of returning him. I just don't know what is in both his best interest and ours. Just looking for any insight after what has been a painful week, emotionally and physically.

Giselle or JJing can probably chime in her, but I know there is a type of conditioning or reinforcement when you are inconsistent. I skim read the other responses, and did not see any mention of it, so forgive me if it has been mentioned.

 

You mentioned he would growl, and you would scold him but were inconsistent. If you didn't make him leave the sofa each time, you reinforced the negative behaviour.

 

Someone also mentioned not to scold when he growled and I wonder if that contributed to his lack of bite inhibition in this instance. Unless you meant getting him off the sofa as punishment, not stopping him from growling.

 

I can understand your feelings. We often attribute human emotions to our dogs and you may feel he betrayed you, doesn't like you, etc. etc. Another GTer had her ear bitten off and learned to love and trust again. I hope the same for you, whatever your decision.

 

eta: I agree with learning about signals...some good books were mentioned and I'd read them asap.

Edited December 29, 2013 by greytpups

[Guest DogDevoted]

Wow, I really appreciate all the thoughtful responses! (OP here)

Cometdust1, I appreciate your suggestion as a way of integrating him back into the family room with us but keeping him off the sofa - we may try to implement that because I know he does feel lonely when we are not in the back den with him and he knows we are in the family room.

He typically is separated from other people and children when they come over primarily because of his enthusiasm and his jumping. He really is friendly and loves people and attention and gets very excited!

I also have put a call into the behavior specialist with our rescue group and will be consulting about the issues with her.

I think we want to try to work through it with him but we know we need to be more aware and more diligent. I mentioned in a previous post that we were a mini dachshund family for nearly 17 years. My kids literally grew up carting those poor minis around like they were baby dolls and the dogs were as complacent as they came! So, even two and a half years into our life with this brindle boy, we are still charting unfamiliar territory with his behaviors. As previous posters mentioned, it was shocking to us that this happened this late into his adoption. I am aware of the error I made, but still very surprised by his sudden reaction. We are definitely heeding the rule to let him be when he is lying down, even when awake. He is also being allowed in other spaces (which is really only the kitchen and an open formal room) with the exception of the family room. Thanks everyone!

[NeylasMom]

That is the biggest thing that concerns me. If the OP said 'I've had this dog for two months,' then fine. I get it. There have been hundreds of similar threads on this board. But the fact that this dog is still displaying this kind of behavior TWO YEARS later, I'd be concerned that there is some underlying factor at play (bite inhibition, pain issues, or some type of fear that is continually being exacerbated and reinforced). I agree with Giselle that a consult with a behaviorist is in order. It's not as simple as, 'let sleeping dogs lie' unless the owner wants to forever walk on eggshells, live in fear, and feel the need to banish the dog from the rest of the household.

The dog is displaying the behavior 2 years later, and in actuality it's escalated because for 2 years the owners haven't taken any steps to better manage the situation or change the dog's feelings about having people in his space. On the contrary, according to the OP he's been scolded routinely for giving a more appropriate warning (growling). IMO it's really not a surprise that the dog escalated to a bite although I'm of course sorry to hear that the OP suffered such severe injuries. All of this is not to say that I don't agree that something needs to change if the dog is going to stay, but that's where the professional behaviorist comes in.

[Gryffenne]

When I first adopted Sammi, I made it very clear to my son (not yet 5 at the time) that her space was HER space. Leave her alone when sleeping, and if she walked into my room -which was right off of the living room- to NOT follow her. That was her way of getting away from whatever was stressing her out in the LR. It worked very well. As she became more comfortable with us, and us with her, I allowed him to approach her more while she was relaxing, but we called her name out and had her lift her head and look at us to "prove" she was awake. He understood that Mommy startles awake, he can startle awake... and so can Sammi. (Part of me, while dreaming of another grey, is not looking forward to training a household again Sammi is almost bomb proof in the house with her pack, a new grey coming in would be a culture shock. Especially for DH & DSS who weren't with us for Sammi's first months. They've only experienced how she is now, after 7 yrs)

 

I also explained to not hug her/kiss her right away, either. How I explained it to him, and to others along the years (and how my dad explained it to us as kids) was think about it from the dog's perspective. A Hug: You are putting your front paws around their neck and your muzzle is going to the back of their head/neck. That's a fighting move to an animal. A Kiss: not much different, you're still putting your muzzle to a part of their head.

It escapes me why people feel the need to kiss dogs on the face. I am far from an expert but I'm not sure the dog really sees it as a sign of affection - more like a big head coming straight at them. Some put up with it and some don't.

The funny part of my story here A few months after Sammi was with us, I started to lean on her (not a full hug yet), she was starting to lean back and rest her head on me while fully relaxed. One day, I naturally planted a light kiss on her "kissy spot" (She has a small tuft of hair right between/above her eyes). She accepted it. So that became our routine. A few months later, I noticed that Sammi would frequently walk up to me and bop me with her nose right on my forehead, or lean up and bop me there lightly while I was petting her/cuddling. It dawned on me.... it was like she was imitating me kissing her in the same spot on her head

 

The first time that she did it to DH, he griped about the wet nose, until i told him that she was kissing him

 

She does do the canine kiss/lick, but very rarely. She seems to be a needle nose bopper.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Gryffenne

[o_rooly]

...

The funny part of my story here A few months after Sammi was with us, I started to lean on her (not a full hug yet), she was starting to lean back and rest her head on me while fully relaxed. One day, I naturally planted a light kiss on her "kissy spot" (She has a small tuft of hair right between/above her eyes). She accepted it. So that became our routine. A few months later, I noticed that Sammi would frequently walk up to me and bop me with her nose right on my forehead, or lean up and bop me there lightly while I was petting her/cuddling. It dawned on me.... it was like she was imitating me kissing her in the same spot on her head

 

The first time that she did it to DH, he griped about the wet nose, until i told him that she was kissing him

 

She does do the canine kiss/lick, but very rarely. She seems to be a needle nose bopper.

When in Rome...

[Guest WhiteWave]

I disagree in the case of the dogo, though I certainly would only bring him in public muzzled from now on. He had nearly died in freezing water the day before, he was then brought into a news studio with cameras, lights, lots of strangers, and held down restrained while a stranger got in his space repeatedly. When he bit, he immediately let go and did not try to maul her. All of these factors make an execution for the bite seem too drastic. He had never bitten before, and hopefully never did again. From what I read afterwards, he was not euthanized.

Don't really want to derail the OP thread, but my reason for wanting the Dogo put down is multifaceted.

 

But the main reason- the owner was a idiot and had no business owning a dog like a Dogo. He made the clear several times- first by admitting to allowing the dog to run loose and chase critters which is why the dog ended up in the frozen lake to begin with. Then by taking him to the news place for publicity. He obviously had no trust in the dog or he would not have been holding on to the collar so tightly and he would have realized the dog was uncomfortable and he would have spoken up and asked the news lady to back up. Owning a dog like a Dogo is not for soft owners- you can't be afraid to speak up when needed. You have to be proactive and protect your dog from situations like this. This owner failed this dog miserable and did a bad injustice to the entire Dogo breed with his very public display of it.

 

But even then, a Dogo should know a real threat vs a nuisance. The news lady was a nuisance and not a threat to the dog.

 

Story: My current Dogo is deaf- he has a real Dogo temperament. He will not back down from any challenge, high prey drive, protective, fearless. But he knows a threat from a nonthreat and he knows how to react accordingly. Several years ago we were at the fall festival at Polk State Collage. A 12 yr old autistic girl saw Casper and broke free from her Mother and tackled him. I mean she moved so fast there was no time react. She hit him and took him to the ground and was laying on top of him and had her arms wrapped around his neck in a death grip and was kissing him in the face. He just laid there and thumped his tail and took it all in stride.

 

I had a foster Dogo that sent someone to the hospital and I still adopted her out. Why because she attacked an intruder. Intruder fought back even stabbing her and she did what she had to do to subdue him. She did what a Dogo should do. If she has back downed or ran and hid, I would have questioned her temperament. You have to take into account the breed of dog and what there correct temperament should be.

 

I love Ronon (Greyhound), he is my boy, but if I had a Dogo that acted like him, I would put it down because it is not correct for that breed. I tolerate it because even though Ronon is quirky, his core temperament is solid and he had proven I can trust him.

[JJNg]

I'd think the dog that bit the news anchor needs a new owner, not to be put down. And personally, I would make the decision to euthanize a dog if I thought it was too much of a safety risk to myself or others and I didn't feel I could realistically manage it, not whether the dog's temperament was correct for the breed.

[silverfish]

I'd think the dog that bit the news anchor needs a new owner, not to be put down. And personally, I would make the decision to euthanize a dog if I thought it was too much of a safety risk to myself or others and I didn't feel I could realistically manage it, not whether the dog's temperament was correct for the breed.

 

[Guest WhiteWave]

I'd think the dog that bit the news anchor needs a new owner, not to be put down. And personally, I would make the decision to euthanize a dog if I thought it was too much of a safety risk to myself or others and I didn't feel I could realistically manage it, not whether the dog's temperament was correct for the breed.

Maybe so, but have you seen the damage a Dogo can do? I know someone who was killed by their Dogo because they made excuses for his temperament which was incorrect for the breed. I know someone who was killed by their Presa and not only that- all the dogs in the house who were not even involved got killed by animal control just for being there. These are not dogs to mess with if you do not know what you are doing. I would rather err on the side of caution than the side of dead. There is no room in this world for a Dogo or similar breed with a questionable temperament. Too many good Dogos are dying in shelters for lack of foster homes. And who wants to take a dog that has already done that much damage to a person and on national television at that. Especially in the USA where we are so sue happy. You could loose everything you have over a dog that should have been put down to begin with if something ever happened again.

Edited December 30, 2013 by WhiteWave

[Guest KennelMom]

You can't trust a dog not to bite you. Not ever. Not even once.

 

You can trust a dog to probably not bite you in a given situation. That is all.

 

If something happens very seldom, then it can be hard for people to figure out what the signs and triggers were.

 

 

Yes

[Guest Giselle]

Let's take discussions about powerful breeds and what "should" happen to them to a different thread. Perhaps, Off Topic? This is about Greyhounds. While I work with and adore powerful breeds, this is not the right place or time to debate what is "appropriate" for a particular breed.

 

By the way, the idea of a "breed temperament" is highly suspect. To this date, NO test we humans have can accurately predict the "temperament" or individual behavior of a dog. Scientific studies have shown again and again that temperament tests are not predictive and not reliable. We have no concrete, reliable, standard method of characterizing "temperament". What we do know, however, is that aggression is highly contextual, probably genetic, highly prone to environmental triggers, and that ANY animal (as Batmom's quote above demonstrates) will bite if pushed far enough. Until then, I'll gladly await the thread in Off Topic about "appropriate breed temperaments"

[RaineysMom]

You can't trust a dog not to bite you. Not ever. Not even once.

 

You can trust a dog to probably not bite you in a given situation. That is all.

 

If something happens very seldom, then it can be hard for people to figure out what the signs and triggers were.

 

One of mine had pure sleep startle. Once or twice a year he would startle awake with a snarl and a huge snap. Once or twice a year. A person might think, "Hey, he's been here awhile, hasn't happened again, he's fine." That person would be wrong. He didn't get on the furniture, and I cuddled with him only very carefully, when I was 100% sure he was awake. Awake, he was entirely nonaggressive toward people and helped several folks who were terrified of big dogs to get over their fears.

 

double YES. Take it from someone whose super sweet, super snuggly girl bit her earlobe clean off....