Serious Bite

[Guest DogDevoted]

We have been happy and proud Grey owners of our beloved brindle boy for two and a half years. (Got him when he was 4) We adore him and he has a great temperament. However, I suffered a very unexpected and very serious bite to my face last week. We have allowed him on the sofa and in hindsight (of course), this was a grave error on our part. The only time he gets "testy" and territorial is on the sofa. He will often growl unexpectedly, often without any provocation. We would scold him and make him leave the sofa (though, admittedly, probably not as consistently as we should). Once in a while, he would enjoy a brief cuddle on the sofa, but typically liked to be let be. I was on the sofa with him one night and he was on the other side. I approached him as he was awake and aware of me coming. I sat beside him and pet him, as he continued to be aware of me and receptive. It was when I leaned in toward his face, that without a warning, he snapped and bit my face very badly. I had to be rushed to the ER and the plastic surgeon was called in to stitch and repair it and a follow up reconstructive surgery was required on my lower lip.

Our family has been shocked and devastated by this and we just want to make the best decision that is in both our best interest and his. I understand that I made the grave error in judgement to attempt to be affectionate with him in a space and time that is not preferable for him. However, his reaction was shocking and very sudden. I should note that this is the third instance in the two and a half years -- though the first was due to a leg getting caught in a blanket and I was trying to untangle it and the second was with my daughter as she startled him by approaching him unexpectedly as he slept (and neither of those resulted in more than a slight break to the skin).

We have a "den" that is his space in the back of the house, it has a sofa just for him and two doorways, one closed off by a door and the other with a gate confining him. He is used to this space as it is where he spends his day when we are out and where he sleeps at night. So for the past week, he has been confined to his room and he has had no access to the family room or the sofa in there or anywhere else in the house. We have all been sure to spend time with and interact with him, myself included, though it took me several days before I was able or willing to. We are trying to treat him well but are exercising extreme caution and having limited physical contact with him.

We are a family of four, and our children (teens) have been very vocal about keeping him. I, too, don't think I could bear the thought of returning him. I just don't know what is in both his best interest and ours. Just looking for any insight after what has been a painful week, emotionally and physically.

[Guest Scouts_mom]

I don't know what to tell you--you are in a horrible situation. Any decision you make will be the right one in your situation, as long as you have thought it out carefully. All I can offer is virtual hugs.

 

Thinking out loud here--is there a chance he has a painful spot (perhaps along his spine) that you accidently hurt? Would a consultation with a behavior specialist help? Could your greyhound group or your vet recommend anyone? If he is not on the couch, how is he when someone leans into his face?

Edited December 27, 2013 by Scouts_mom

[NeylasMom]

If you are considering keeping him, an in home consultation with a behaviorist who uses reward-based training methods is a must imo. You'd be looking for someone who can teach you how to read his body language so you aren't only realizing he's uncomfortable when it's too late and he's already growled, snapped or bitten as well as someone who can teach you positive methods to get and keep him off of the furniture (easy food-reward based ways to teach "off" and "go to bed" for instance) and will teach you how to use counter-conditioning to change his feelings about having you in his space. If a trainer you are considering uses the words "alpha", "dominance", or "boss", run, don't walk the other way.

 

Good luck.

[Batmom]

I'm sorry you were hurt so badly.

 

 

From what you've described, the problem would solve itself if people let sleeping (and lying down) dogs lie. Get the dog up on his feet to interact with him. And, even on his feet, don't bend over him from the front (bending over the front/head of the dog can seem very threatening to the dog). For that last -- interacting with the dog when he's on his feet -- training classes using positive methods can be helpful as they get the dog used to a variety of motions from the handler.

 

 

If you feel you can't trust him as a full member of the family, then it would be best to return him to your adoption group. It sounds like you all love him dearly and are trying to wrap your heads and hearts around what's happened. I hope all works out well for you.

[Guest Clawsandpaws]

My dog would snarl, and has gone after people that lean over him. (Although this has only happened twice)He has never bitten, but I know that my dog can be super cuddly and loving, but we would never, never, never lean over him. I think right now you are too emotional (and rightfully so!) to make such a big decision. I would try to wait a little while and really think about how you feel once everything settles down. I would no longer allow him on the furniture (our dog recently lost his couch privileges for growling at a friend). It is important to try and think about "dog language" while you are around your dog, what your actions are being seen as from his perspective.

 

My dog hates the feeling of "losing control" of his body, he hates having pressure put on his back, and he gets nervous if something is looming over him. All of these things cause him to growl to let us know "** are you doing? Please stop!" so we do our best to avoid these situations, and if we can, we use positive reinforcements for things that can be trained.

 

He may not have been asleep, but leaning over any dog is usually a big no-no. I would hope this is an isolated incident, however, if you feel you can no longer trust this dog, and no longer trust him around your family, then I would agree with Batmom and return him also. It is not fair to you or the dog.

[Guest DogDevoted]

Thank u for the replies! We agree that we need to give it some time and not make any impulsive decisions. Part of me agrees w/ batmom that it is a problem that would resolve itself if we are more careful about our approaching him. He has been receptive to leaning in toward him for hugs and kisses before but it is good advice to be sure he is on his feet. Our rescue group does have a specialist and we will likely consult her. I also appreciate the advice about trust and that we need to take that into consideration. Thank u!

[GreyhoundGirl]

I can't tell you what to do but I can tell you what happened to me. I had my Dart for a few years and KNEW he was sleep aggressive therefore I never went near him when he was laying down (let alone even looked like he was sleeping). Nor did I allow anyone else. One night I was hugely upset and needed a snuggle. Not thinking, I went up to him and snuggled him. He reared up and snapped, biting my face. He got my eye and my lip. It wasn't nearly as bad as yours but it was bad. He scratched my eyeball and gave me a fat lip.

 

I ended up at the eye doctor where I was SURE they were going to put him down. I was horrified and terrified. The nurse was very kind when I explained what happened.

 

It never occured to me to return him because it was MY fault; I approached him when he was sleeping, something I knew was a no-no. I never approached him again when he was sleeping and we never had a problem again.

 

Just a thought...Obviously this has to be your decision.

[Guest Giselle]

I'm very sorry for your hurt and pain. I hope you heal very quickly and without trauma.

 

However, dog bites never occur out of the blue. From your post, you note that your dog gave repeated warnings in the past. In this particular incident, your dog likely gave you many subtle body language cues saying, "Stop approaching me. Stop touching me". When these signals weren't heeded, he did the only thing left to stop the stressor: A lunge/bite. There are always various subtle body language cues that our dogs give us when they're feeling uncomfortable or stressed. To avoid a conflict, you need to recognize the warning signs so that you can respond better in the future. It's not just a matter of "trust". (What is "trust" anyways? If I can't explain it in concrete, tangible terms, how am I going to train my dog to have it?) It's a matter of clear dog-human communication and proper training of both parties. A serious bite is a serious deal. To avoid conflict, you need to be under the tutelage of someone well-versed in animal behavior, behavior science, and dog body language. See:

www.dacvb.org

www.iaabc.org

www.animalbehavior.org/ABSAppliedBehavior/caab-directory‎

www.avsabonline.org

 

Tip: Do not just use any "professional" at andom. Most of the people out there calling themselves "dog trainers" or "dog behaviorists" have not received advanced training in training or behavior and could make your situation worse. Be cautious. Be skeptical. Do your vetting carefully. Good luck!

[4My2Greys]

First off, I'm really sorry this has happened to you. Next I would like to applaud you for keeping an open-heart and open-mind and not being so quick to want to put the blame of the incident on him and return him without a second thought. The only thing that concerns me is the fact that it sounds like you have banished him to a separate room and away from family members. I really hope you can find someone to help you work through his issues and gain an understanding of how he sees and interprets actions so that you are comfortable enough again for him to be in the same room with your family.

[JohnF]

I'm sorry to read that you got bitten in the face.

Our hearts, once we have healed, tell us give them another chance, but your dog has 2 previous space-aggressive misdemeanours (I don't count the blanket thing and it is always wise to muzzle a tangled or hurt dog).

 

Since life is short I really don't think you should be living in fear inside of your own home. The dog will pick up on it and another bite is sure to happen again, also out of the blue. Have a word with your rehoming group... they may have someone who is able to be less close to their dogs meaning that he will not be tempted to bite again.

[Batmom]

IMHO we internet readers can't say that "another bite is sure to happen again." Many dogs do not like being leaned over or disturbed while lying down. That doesn't mean they're aggressive or apt to snap in any other circumstances.

[rascalsmom]

Agree with Batmom on her point, 100%. Two of our five have been just like that--did not like to be leaned over, and would (does) give a growl. My DD gets upset when Phoebe does that to her, but I keep telling her--she does not LIKE that, so don't do it. The growl is her telling you that. A growl is better than a bite, so heed it.

 

Neither Phoebe nor (angel) Buddy were at all aggressive otherwise, just like Jey said. They simply did/do not like being leaned over.

 

Hopefully you can work through this with your dog.

[Guest Giselle]

Normally, I would agree with you Batmom, but this bite was severe enough to cause reconstructive surgery. That's very severe. In terms of how we rank bite intensity, a bite requiring reconstructive surgery is about as severe as you can get before it is considered a "fatal" bite. That's why I'm so concerned and would not recommend keeping this dog without a consultation and working relationship with a professional trainer or behaviorist.

 

Edit: It's not to insinuate that there's anything "wrong" with the dog. What is very clearly "wrong", however, is rampant miscommunication between the dog and family, so, unless that underlying cause is addressed, I personally feel very uncomfortable about the situation.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Giselle

[Guest Giselle]

Random thought that crossed my mind. The reason that this bite bothers me so much is because it's related to the idea of "Acquired Bite Inhibition". Basically, does the dog understand how to give appropriate signals with its mouth without escalating to a strong, intense bite? As puppies, some trainers think this is a feasible skill to teach. But virtually every professional I know does not believe that you can change a dog's bite inhibition once s/he has reached adulthood. The fact that this particular dog seems to have initiated so much damage in one lunge leads me to believe that this dog has poor acquired bite inhibition and, thus, will be a risk if his signals aren't read correctly. This is why I feel so cautious about the situation. It would absolutely great if the OP's dog and family prove me wrong, but I'm just really bothered by the intensity of the bite

[krissy]

Not sure why my quote function doesn't work.... Erg.

 

The lack of bite inhibition is also what really bugs me. Lets put it this way. If I can choose to work with/own/handle either a friendly dog with poor bite inhibition or a dog who has snapped/bitten but has good bite inhibition... honestly, I choose the second dog. The problem with the first dog is that he might be very friendly, but if I accidentally trip over him or shut his tail in a door he is going to bite me multiple times and do damage. The second dog may actually be more likely to bite me, but is less likely to do damage. Lack of bite inhibition is always a really big concern to me.

 

The other thing that bothers me a little is that the OP says "without warning". As Giselle already pointed out there were probably some subtle warning signs in the body language. However, generally speaking there is a range of escalation in warnings. First the dog uses body language and calming signals to indicate "hey, I'm not comfortable with this situation, please stop". If that message goes unheeded the dog has 2 choices: escape or warn. If the dog cannot leave or does not want to leave he will warn. Usually the first warning is a growl. If that goes unheeded often a snap without the intention of making contact. THEN a bite with contact (but usually no damage... bite inhibition at work!) and finally the dog is forced to deliver a true bite.

 

This dog, for whatever reason, seems to lack bite inhibition, but also seems to not give great warnings. I'm sure there are body cues of "go away, please" but he never gets to "seriously, I really want you to stop that!" and just goes right for "HEY! I MEAN BUSINESS!". In my experience (which isn't vast by any means) a dog doesn't usually circumvent the warning system unless he has learned that the warning system doesn't work. Which is why it's recommended to not scold or punish a dog for growling as it can result in the dog eliminating the growl and going right to the bite. I don't know about the growling, but it may be that because his previous snap/bite with no damage warnings went unheeded that he went right to delivering a true bite. It's still concerning behaviour though, IMO.

[Batmom]

I don't think the bite inhibition stuff really applies when the dog is startled or trapped, as in when a human is bending over a dog. I also don't think a dog that is startled or frightened/trapped knows exactly where his teeth are going to land -- you're talking about a panic mode situation.

[Guest grey_dreams]

They've had the dog for 2.5 years. The dog has been giving warnings for 2.5 years that have gone unheeded. When the warnings are repeatedly ignored, they tend to fall away in place of just going in for a bite ....

 

From the OP's description of the incident, she "cornered" him against the sofa and then "leaned in" to his face. Sounds like he must have felt trapped, and there probably wasn't a lot of space between those teeth and her face.

 

Very sorry that this happened to you and the dog.

 

 

 

Just wanted to add:

My beloved Zariel was a fear biter, he was traumatized of people and did not want any human to touch him. He bit others, never broke the skin. He was deemed "unadoptable". I'm so glad about that. He's been with me for 4 years now. As we were getting to know one another, I did get about three growls from him on different occasions. He never once snapped at me, for the simple reason that I never pressured him or put him in a position where he felt the need to. It was about four months before he let me pet him. Now, four years later, you could never imagine how we started, because he is so loving and playful, and always wants me to stroke his belly. I have allowed my primate side to surface more (the primate need to clutch things, and hug things against your chest and face, and plant kisses), and now he even allows me to kiss the top of his head. But, even still, I always monitor his breathing and watch for any sudden muscle tension - those very subtle warning signals that the contact is getting to be too overwhelming. Zariel doesn't give these signs any more, but I bet the OP's dog does, and the family misses the subtle (and even not-so-subtle) cues.

Edited December 27, 2013 by grey_dreams

[silverfish]

So very sorry to hear that this has happened. I do hope you will be OK, in time.

Like others, who have posted, I am very concerned that he appears to have poor bite inhibition, especially considering there are children in the house. However, I also agree that it seems that there is miscommunication between the humans and the dog which has been going on for a very long time. As Grey Dreams says, when warnings are continually ignored, the dog is pushed into doing something different, and the combination of poor bite inhibition and the lack of good communication is, perhaps, what is responsible for the present situation.

I hesitate to offer advice, since I am not a professional trainer, just someone who has owned greyhounds (20 years now). However, one thing I will say is that if you want to continue owning dogs of any kind, you should read up on dog social signals and the way they communicate with us. There are many good books on the subject, but one to start with perhaps is 'The Other End of the Leash, by Patricia McConnell, followed by 'Bones Would Rain From the Sky' by Suzanne Clothier. 'Living with Kids and Dogs' is also an excellent book full of useful advice and information.

 

Batmom is also correct when she says that in certain situations, normal bite inhibition is bypassed. I used to work as a nurse for a vet, and can tell you first hand how a normally docile family pet can injure someone through fear. I ignored the normal protocols one day to my cost, bending down to pick up a trailing leash while a fear-aggressive GSD was still in her kennel. She got me in the face and I still have the scars. It wasn't her fault, it was mine.

Normally, I would agree with you Batmom, but this bite was severe enough to cause reconstructive surgery. That's very severe. In terms of how we rank bite intensity, a bite requiring reconstructive surgery is about as severe as you can get before it is considered a "fatal" bite. That's why I'm so concerned and would not recommend keeping this dog without a consultation and working relationship with a professional trainer or behaviorist.

 

Edit: It's not to insinuate that there's anything "wrong" with the dog. What is very clearly "wrong", however, is rampant miscommunication between the dog and family, so, unless that underlying cause is addressed, I personally feel very uncomfortable about the situation.

 

 

Random thought that crossed my mind. The reason that this bite bothers me so much is because it's related to the idea of "Acquired Bite Inhibition". Basically, does the dog understand how to give appropriate signals with its mouth without escalating to a strong, intense bite? As puppies, some trainers think this is a feasible skill to teach. But virtually every professional I know does not believe that you can change a dog's bite inhibition once s/he has reached adulthood. The fact that this particular dog seems to have initiated so much damage in one lunge leads me to believe that this dog has poor acquired bite inhibition and, thus, will be a risk if his signals aren't read correctly. This is why I feel so cautious about the situation. It would absolutely great if the OP's dog and family prove me wrong, but I'm just really bothered by the intensity of the bite

 

 

I don't think the bite inhibition stuff really applies when the dog is startled or trapped, as in when a human is bending over a dog. I also don't think a dog that is startled or frightened/trapped knows exactly where his teeth are going to land -- you're talking about a panic mode situation.

 

[Fruitycake]

Many people, even long-term dog owners, do not understand the huge variety in dog body language. I can understand the OP's nervousness around her dog, but I would also say that the dog was likely giving signals that the humans weren't reading and he kept feeling like they had to escalate them to be "heard." There are some great videos out there on dog body language, (Calming Signals: what your dog tells you [by Turid Rugaas], The Language of dogs: understanding canine body language and other communication signals [this one is very intensive and over two hours]) and books with good illustrations as well: Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide Interpreting the Native Language of the Domestic Dog is one, and Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook is another. The entire family, if they are going to keep him, needs to learn canine body language so they can see when they're pushing him (or any dog) out of their comfort zone before someone gets hurt.

 

If the OP doesn't feel safe and feels that they need to keep the dog away from the family, the dog should be returned (with the accompanying warning about his space--...I won't say aggression, but more of a "space-defensive reaction" when people get too close). If the family can all be trusted to allow the dog his space (which shouldn't be on the couch with humans, at this point in time, or maybe ever!) and all learn that he has his triggers and that they need to pay very close attention to any signal that he's getting uncomfortable and they need to back off immediately so he doesn't ever feel pushed into defending himself ever again, maybe it might work. If he feels threatened by people getting their face too close, then faces must never get close. If he doesn't like people leaning over him, no one ever leans over him.

 

It's a hard situation all around right now. He has learned that he might not be "heard" if he tries to talk to you in whispers (small tensions or body language that is subtle), so now he has learned to go immediately to yelling (lunging with teeth) at you. Since this is the third "teeth" incident, he's been "taught" that his attempts to use body language didn't work, his growls didn't work, his snapping and inhibiting his bite didn't work.... I really don't think this is the house for him, because there are too many people and they don't seem to be hearing him so he's being taught that he has to get more violent in telling them he's uncomfortable with the situation.

 

(If I were in a house where people ignored me for trying to hint that I was uncomfortable by trying to give body language clues, then they yelled at me for telling them outloud I was uncomfortable (growl), then they continued at me when I tried to push them to back away (snap), I might haul out and just punch them some day without trying all the intervening steps that are ignored or I get in trouble for. And every time that jump happens to violence, the more likely it will advance even faster the next time. THAT finally got a reaction I needed - people backing out of my "tension zone" - so now I know something that works with these people!)

[Guest carriej]

I have not read all the previous entries, but I have a similar story to share.

 

Our rescue group is headed by a canine behavior therapist, who specializes in greyhounds. She says we should not allow greyhounds on couches, she said she obviously can't control it but she really doesn't recommend it. She says it is almost like a drug to them, something wonderful they have never had and they will defend/guard/be obsessed over it.

 

Now, even with that after a few years we let our greys up on the couch. Freeman had 0 space issues - we could maul him to death and he wouldn't even so much as open his eyes. Kowalla was another ball game; and we did teach both the dogs "OFF". As soon as we said it; both dogs hopped down. However my husband was goofing around with Kowalla one day (while Kowalla was laying down) and got bit in the face also, right by his eye. Blood poured everywhere.

 

It was very difficult to get over; and needless to say we learned our lesson. Chance will never be allowed on furniture.

 

She also recommends no bending over or reaching over dogs, no taking high quality treats or bones without "trading" for something else, etc...

 

Dogs can't talk, and they let us know they are uncomfortable in other ways. Sometimes, those ways are ignored by us humans as we don't see it or think it's a warning. Kowalla did growl at my husband, and I could see the whites of his eyes, but my husband was sure that "Kowalla would never bite him". Well; my husband will no longer ever think that way about a dog again. They all have teeth and can bite.

Edited December 27, 2013 by carriej

[Batmom]

Any dog bite can be severe if a person happens to be in the way of those teeth. I don't think the classification systems for an individual bite are always rational. JMO, YMMV, etc.

 

Another "reconstructive surgery" case that I know of involved a good friend (of the dog) bending over to give a mini dachshund a kiss, as he'd done many times before. Who knows if the angle was different, the dog was distracted, or what. One snap, face in the way, plastic surgeon required. Had never happened before, never happened again -- altho after that the person bent over not quite so far and gave the dog a friendly scritch instead.

[Guest DogDevoted]

Batmom, it's funny you mention the miniature Dachshund . . . we started out with two mini dachshunds and had one of them for over 16 years! They were very cuddly dogs, so yes, it has been different adapting to a dog that is not "cuddly." We have recognized this about him and been careful to give him his space. However, over time, he has been more affectionate and there have been many times that he has enjoyed hugs and kisses, both on and off the couch. Certainly, we recognize the error in having allowed him on the couch. I have not heard before about the bite inhibition and I am reading those comments carefully to understand it better. He typically does give a warning and they have always been heeded - we never continue to approach him or touch him when he indicates discomfort or agitation. In this case, I think I may have missed more subtle cues but like I said, he was receptive to me sitting next to him and petting him. It was my error to lean in toward his face. I did not note previously that he has demonstrated some sensitivity with one ear (he has suffered terrible allergies and gets some occasional tenderness in one ear) recently and I am unsure if I may have touched it. But my gut tells me that it was probably a space issue.

There is certainly a lot to take into consideration and I appreciate all the feedback!

[Guest Giselle]

What signals do you look for that indicate the dog is in discomfort?

 

What do you consider a warning v.s. being "receptive" to touch?

 

Gaining your perspective will help us understand where the miscommunications are coming from. And regardless of whether or not we feel comfortable with the severity of the bite, it doesn't change the fact that dog-human miscommunication is the source of the problem. So, you and your family need to fix that asap.

[Guest k9soul]

I don't have any insight to add, but I am very sorry this happened. I'm sure it is emotionally difficult for everyone and I hope you are able to find the answers you need to address the issue. I wonder if he was doing okay but when you leaned in he had a sudden flash of panic/defensiveness.

 

My boy Rudy is uncomfortable with being touched when he is lying down, and on occasion seems to suddenly get anxious if someone is rubbing the back of his neck or shoulders more vigorously or for too long. I've learned his subtle signs, how he tenses, raising his head more, his eyes opening a bit wider. He seems to pointedly look away (calming signal) and sometimes does a small tongue flick. These are all subtle little things that I watch for so that he does not reach the point of escalation where he will growl/bark, in his mind defending himself.

[Acadianarose]

I am very sorry this happened. I know it must be very upsetting for you and your family.

 

I am always shocked to read a post like this, where an owner is seriously bitten by their dog for seemingly no reason. My dog, Payton, has space aggression. If he is lying down prone, he does not feel comfortable being touched. So we don't touch him. But while he is not overly affectionate, he does not mind brief kisses on the head and will routinely walk up to me and press the top of his head into my chest or stomach for a few moments.

 

I can never tell from reading the original post exactly what the owner did wrong. Or than touching the dog while he was lying down? I mean, lots of greyhound owners hug or kiss their dog. And the OP said the dog was receptive to her attention. I don't know that your average owner is going to notice a change in breathing by the dog as an indication that the dog is uncomfortable.

 

ETA- Payton and Rudy have the same type of subtle signs of stress. We try to leave him alone before he gets to the point of being stressed.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Acadianarose