Need Some Help With Clarice

[krissn333]

I am going to apologize in advance because my thinking is VERY jumbled right now and I'm not really even CERTAIN of what the "problem" truly is, or if there even is one.

 

So, Clarice came home a week ago. She met Ozzie while she was still out at the adoption kennel and for the most part, they ignored one another beyond the initial sniffing. Until Ozzie decided he wanted to sniff Clarice's ears. This was met with baring of teeth and growling from Clarice.

 

Since she's been home, she's sort of acted like she is afraid of Ozzie. She really has no reason to be - he pretty much avoids her. He is very non-confrontational. For a few days, I had to keep her muzzled because if he got within 3 feet of her she'd bare her teeth and growl. This would be followed by LOTS of lip-licking calming behavior (hopefully someone can help me here - is she trying to calm HERSELF, or is she telling Ozzie "I'm afraid of you, please don't come any closer."

 

Now, I know that growling is "good" in theory. I totally understand she is communicating. Ozzie is getting the message. What I don't understand is WHY she feels this need.

 

I have spent the past week trying to collect information so I could post here - is she on furniture when this happens, does something trigger her to do this? There does not seem to be a rhyme or reason, honestly. I can't find any real patterns other than it really doesn't happen outside anymore now that the others are not so "up her butt" inspecting her.

 

Jey (Batmom) told me that they had good success with feeding the new dog who was snarky a bunch of treats when the other dog approached. Well, Clarice is not so much a food hound, but, she IS an attention hound. So I've been basically just making a HUGE deal out of her when Ozzie is nearby, and petting Ozzie too.

 

We have had ZERO issues with handing out treats - I have some Nutro bite-sized fruit treats that they both LOVE and Clarice will eat those right there (at first she was walking off with each little piece to go enjoy it on the couch but she has figured out if she stays right there she will get just as many as Oz gets).

 

As of late (the past few days), she has been MUCH better, but, Ozzie will not come to bed to sleep with us. We did have ONE night where he came to bed and settled in, and then I brought Clarice in and they happily shared my bed all night, zero snarks, zero issues. This may just be because he gets settled on the couch and doesn't want to move. I'm trying not to let it bother me or make me think he is "upset," because honestly he'd choose to sleep on the couch sometimes even before Clarice arrived. He comes in in the morning to wake us up and he will hop up on the bed. Initially Clarice is on alert a little bit. This is the ONLY pattern I can find as she is always tense if he comes up on the bed in the morning. But it does not seem to me to be a possessive behavior - seems more like fear.

 

I can see with her body language when she is feeling "threatened" for lack of better term. She sort of narrows her eyes and keeps an eye on him. When this happens I have been basically just re-directing her attention by petting her and she immediately relaxes. Am I doing the right thing?

 

They are now fine out in the yard and have even been running around together briefly.

 

I just want to be certain that I handle things correctly so as not to contribute to the problem. She has not met my parents' dogs yet, but, I have a sinking feeling that she will be snarky with them at first too I'd really like them all to get along well because we do Christmas Day at my folks' house and I've always taken my dogs over there as they're part of our family too.

 

Tips, advice?

[MaryJane]

My two cents ..

 

I would get her off the couch and the bed. Have her sleep on the floor. When she is resting in a "better place" (bed, couch) she will want to guard it. Do that for a few days and see if it makes any difference in the behavior.

[krissn333]

I'd love to, and I knew this is a topic that would come up. The only way to keep her off the furniture is to kennel her. I have never ever seen a greyhound that loves furniture more (and I've had a lot of greyhounds!). I honestly don't know how I'd ever be able to keep her off of it.

 

As I said above, it seems to be a fear behavior, not a possessive behavior. It will happen sometimes when she is just standing in the middle of the room and he walks by. As long as he does not look directly AT her, things are okay. It's odd to me.

[krissn333]

Forgot to add, they have shared furniture AND my bed with no issues. He's hopped up on the couch and plopped down while she's been sound asleep and because she didnt have time to notice him approaching, she has had very little reaction. She sat up, looked at him, and went back to sleep.

 

She's 18 months old and was just spayed 3 weeks ago. Part of me wonders if she is slightly hormonal and is worried he's going to try and mount her. He's never made a move to do that, but, that doesnt mean she doesnt perceive him being near as a threat.

 

She's also been collecting things. I know greyhounds just do this, but, the degree to which she arranges things she collects looks like nesting behavior.

In talking with my coworker who had an intact female husky, he said that her behavior sounds just like when his husky was in heat.

[krissn333]

I've also eaten my dinner with them both loose in the living room. I tell them each to go lay down and they do. Initially they are both interested to know what I have, and there's no squabble over it at all. They'll each adjourn to a couch and take a nap while I eat dinner.

[Guest Giselle]

New dog, slightly skittish, owner is aware and attempting to redirect her attention. Older dog treating the new dog relatively calmly and not antagonizing her. Doesn't sound like there's a problem to me. Now, COULD there be a problem? Sure, but it sounds like you're doing your due diligence, and nothing about the situation reads red flag yet. Continue to monitor their interactions and be very aware of her fear reactions. When she does get fearful, the correct action is to diffuse and redirect, just as you're doing.

 

My only suggestion is: What kind of treats are you using? While petting is great, food is a strong and instantaneous motivator. It's always a "quick and dirty" way to get the dog's attention on you, so it's great for redirection. You may also consider tying the redirection to an explicit behavior. For example, I like to use nose touches and turn it into a targeting game: http://www.progressdog.com/video-targeting-game.html

I am also not above using hot dogs, steak, rotisserie chicken, whatever I can get!

[greysmom]

It could be her age, it could be her recent surgery, it could be that she's just not well socialized.

 

She's basically still a puppy, and still going through puppy fear stages, so she might be in the midst of being freaked out in general. This will pass on it's own and she'll be fine. Plus, her world has been really upset the last three weeks, so this is likely a contributing factor to her feeling anxious and unsettled with a new dog around.

 

If she is feeling some leftover hormonal imbalance, this too will pass eventually. It's took about 6 months for one of mine to get them all out of her system. In the meantime, she was a bit anxious/nervous, and did collect things.

 

If she needs some additional socialization, then that's easily remedied. If you can, take her to your parent's house before Christmas Day to introduce her to the house dogs in a less stressful situation - one you feel you can leave with her if you need to and not ruin the holiday.

 

Given that she's not been with you very long, I would probably do some very watchful waiting. Nothing sounds very serious - she's just expressing her discomfort. Continue to support her and do things to give her confidence - teach her some commands ("watch me" and other commands that demand her concentration while being easy to do). And, BTW, you *can* teach her to get off the furniture and bed, it's just going to require you being more stubborn and consistent than she is. But it might not be a bad thing to teach her anyway. When she gets on the couch or bed, say "off" or whatever, and lead her off to a dog bed, treat and praise - rinse and repeat. Sounds easy, but it will be a very hard habit to break.

[cleptogrey]

we went thru a silent version of aggression when felix was a pup and the older female in our house. i did find out from felix's littermates owner that she went thru the same thing w/ her first gh pup and her older female. i kept emily muzzled for quite some time, watched the two together like a hawk but both felix and my friend's pup both got good bites(on their throats) from the older resident greys.

 

we both crated our pups

we both monitored the together time, except the one slip up.i went to the bathroom! the older dogs seem to take advantage of those choice moments to show whose in charge.

we both used muzzles on the older greys

we both worked on limiting space since the pups were flying lunatic and bounced off of all furniture. the shaker can was our best friend when it came to keeping them off the furniture. two repeats of a shake and he just needed to see the can on the coffee table and the flying boy knew the couch was off limits.(to this day he walks up and waits for an invite onto the couch).

we both loved sharing our stories of our naughty dogs and developed a good friendship.

 

 

obedience training,i can't say enough about it..... remember clarice is starting adolescence. most likely clarice is testing the waters and looking for that terrifying bite. your boy is being very good giving him warnings, the females just quietly bite! eventually emily and felix were trusted together. but i did crate him thru his first year and a half while i was out of the house.i crated him while i showered, etc. emily taught him where his place in our house, car, camping, etc was. it's a dog thing.

Edited December 14, 2013 by cleptogrey

[krissn333]

New dog, slightly skittish, owner is aware and attempting to redirect her attention. Older dog treating the new dog relatively calmly and not antagonizing her. Doesn't sound like there's a problem to me. Now, COULD there be a problem? Sure, but it sounds like you're doing your due diligence, and nothing about the situation reads red flag yet. Continue to monitor their interactions and be very aware of her fear reactions. When she does get fearful, the correct action is to diffuse and redirect, just as you're doing.

 

My only suggestion is: What kind of treats are you using? While petting is great, food is a strong and instantaneous motivator. It's always a "quick and dirty" way to get the dog's attention on you, so it's great for redirection. You may also consider tying the redirection to an explicit behavior. For example, I like to use nose touches and turn it into a targeting game: http://www.progressdog.com/video-targeting-game.html

I am also not above using hot dogs, steak, rotisserie chicken, whatever I can get!

Thank you - I was hoping you'd chime in.

 

We have many treats here...she hasn't quite figured out the value of treats yet but we're trying. She is A PEOPLE DOG (OMG, SUCH a people dog - LOVES people so much and is so wiggly and excited over people and attention. It is initially what drew me to her.). At the adoption kennel she was not a very good eater and very rarely ate her treats. She is young and just doesn't really know yet I think. She IS eating her meals - clean bowls every time. I feed TOTW Pacific Stream and she loves it. Our group sent some of the kennel food home with us so I could transition her, but, she just simply would.not.eat.it. So, I took a leap and just started feeding her straight TOTW. Great poop and she loves it.

 

Treats...we have LeanTreats (from the vet's office - Ozzie got them when he entered their Halloween costume contest). Those are our high value treats - Ozzie gets those when I dremel his nails Clarice was not quite sure she was interested in them though.

 

I have the Nutro crunchy treats, both in mixed berry and apple. This is the first time I've bought these and will definitely get them again - they're a hit and are a great size for training treats: http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=12752488&lmdn=Brand&f=PAD%2FpsNotAvailInUS%2FNo

 

I have made dehydrated banana chips and dehydrated sweet potato chips...Ozzie likes them but Clarice is not sure what to do with them yet

 

I also get the Ol Roy (I know...) peanut butter cookies from Walmart on occasion. They were Ace and Fritz's FAVORITE cookies - they'd do ANYTHING for a "peanut cookie." Those I give out when I leave for the day so Clarice can eat it at her leisure in her kennel without Ozzie the pig trying to take it from her.

 

I'd like to get into making treats for the pups more too. Right now those little Nutro treats are my favorite because I can get them both standing there with me enjoying them in a close space without issues.

 

It's pretty clear that she's a pretty smart cookie (she just has lots of puppy energy!), so I think I can work on some things like the targeting with her. I'd REALLY love for her to be a therapy dog someday but obviously that's off in the future.

 

I do also recognize she's only been home for a week, and in that week she's already made progress. I just want to be sure I'm doing everything I can to HELP her instead of setting her back.

 

 

It could be her age, it could be her recent surgery, it could be that she's just not well socialized.

 

She's basically still a puppy, and still going through puppy fear stages, so she might be in the midst of being freaked out in general. This will pass on it's own and she'll be fine. Plus, her world has been really upset the last three weeks, so this is likely a contributing factor to her feeling anxious and unsettled with a new dog around.

 

If she is feeling some leftover hormonal imbalance, this too will pass eventually. It's took about 6 months for one of mine to get them all out of her system. In the meantime, she was a bit anxious/nervous, and did collect things.

 

If she needs some additional socialization, then that's easily remedied. If you can, take her to your parent's house before Christmas Day to introduce her to the house dogs in a less stressful situation - one you feel you can leave with her if you need to and not ruin the holiday.

 

Given that she's not been with you very long, I would probably do some very watchful waiting. Nothing sounds very serious - she's just expressing her discomfort. Continue to support her and do things to give her confidence - teach her some commands ("watch me" and other commands that demand her concentration while being easy to do). And, BTW, you *can* teach her to get off the furniture and bed, it's just going to require you being more stubborn and consistent than she is. But it might not be a bad thing to teach her anyway. When she gets on the couch or bed, say "off" or whatever, and lead her off to a dog bed, treat and praise - rinse and repeat. Sounds easy, but it will be a very hard habit to break.

I do know that she's really not had a big opportunity to meet many other greyhounds other than her littermates (and all except 1 are female) to the point where they were in her personal space. She was a race training flunkee, so, I am not even sure of how much time she'd have spent in a kennel where she'd be turned out with dogs other than her littermates. I think the dogs that are sort of forced into that situation, while they may be snarky at first, eventually understand that they end up outside with lots of other dogs and it's no big deal. I wonder if she didn't get much of that given her non-existent racing career I do know that at my group's kennel, she was only turned out with her two sisters, who are also available for adoption. So I'm sure socialization is needed for her.

 

We are going out to Mom & Dad's tomorrow so she can meet Sunny and Goody. It will be late afternoon - I'm hoping maybe the weather will be decent enough we can take a nice long walk. The weather here has not been very conducive to that (and she REALLY needs some walking "lessons!"). I know already she's not going to love Sunny straight away - he is a big oaf who is very nosy. However, she will likely give him what-for and he will then respect her space (Ace had to tell him how things were going to be too ). Goody is very quiet and polite - beyond initial sniffing she will not even be interested.

 

I knew going into this that she would be more work than any greyhound I've ever had. Ace was just 26 months old when I brought her home, and while she was a little bit of a busybody, she was the only dog and our biggest challenge with her was just keeping her from stealing stuff off the counter and, initially, getting her to understand that play-bowing at the kitties was NOT the way to win them over Fritz came a year and a half later and other than getting him to not pee on every upright object in the house and to be nice to the kitties, he was a piece of cake. Pinky liked to chew things but was otherwise fine. Everyone else that has come in since then (Skimmie the IG, Sutra, Sage the IG, Carrie) has just fallen into the fold without missing a beat. I've worked with greyhounds for over 11 years now and this particular experience is all new territory for me - beyond initial snarks and boundary setting among the dogs, we've never had issues.

 

As I said, Clarice has already made great progress, so, I just need to remember baby steps with her, and that she's only been here a week. I do kennel her when I am not home or when I can't be watching her (like when I'm in the shower). She is muzzled to go outside because I can't always keep a close eye on her (I get their meals ready while they're outside in the morning and right when I get home from work). In the past couple of days I've been allowing her to be unmuzzled when we are just hanging out in the living room and at bedtime.

 

She DID accidentally lick Ozzie's face this morning when he came in to wake me up. She was busy going to town licking my face and Oz leaned his head over my shoulder Once she realized what she'd done, she looked around and flopped over. It's like her initial go-to emotion is fear, but once her conscious mind kicks on, she's back to good. She was wiggling all over the bed this morning with her feet in the air, belly exposed, and Oz was standing on the bed right next to me. But it was after he'd been on the bed for a few moments and after her initial tense-up, I'd redirected her to give me kisses.

 

I think we'll get there. I just want to be sure I'm doing everything I can to make this as easy as possible for all of us and to keep our house happy

Edited December 14, 2013 by krissn333

[Guest Giselle]

You are doing everything an adopter possibly can. Have faith in yourself!

 

As for the treats, while those sound amazing for a dog like a Lab, I'd recommend skipping all the extra work and just buy yourself a little rotisserie chicken. Heck, throw caution to the wind and buy a pack of hot dogs! I guarantee you that these are much more interesting than any store-bought, grain-based treat

[krissn333]

Well I certainly have no problem with that either

[Batmom]

Hot dogs. The best alternative I've found that you can put in your pocket without grossing yourself out is Soft & Chewy Buddy Biscuits, Bacon & Cheese flavor. But hot dogs are better .

 

Keep trudging along and give her a couple weeks. Sounds like she is really doing fine for this early on.

[krissn333]

I can't thank you all ENOUGH! All of this makes me feel SO much better...seriously.

 

Also have to add I am SO thankful she is a good kennel-er. She goes right into her kennel when I have to leave in the morning and at mealtimes. She is the first greyhound I've ever had here that will happily sleep in her kennel after she's eaten even though I'm sitting here in my recliner typing on the computer. Any other dog I've had did NOT want to be in their kennel unless I was getting ready to leave the house. I've watched her on the webcam when I leave too and I check in on her throughout the day - I always see Oz on the loveseat and Clarice roached in her kennel

[krissn333]

Fudge

 

He walked over while she had a toy and a scuffle ensued. His ear is sort of scalped. Currently trying to decide if it is stitchable or not.

[krissn333]

owie by krissn333, on Flickr

[krissn333]

Okay we're at the e-vet.

 

I'm scared, guys. Obviously I am not ready to give up on Clarice. But this brings up all kinds of questions. I'm concerned about Ozzie going forward. He's very sensitive and his first home didnt treat him well. I'm worried about how this will affect him. Will they always be at odds now?

 

Please tell me it's possible to move forward from something like this

[MaryJane]

Yes, you can move forward but, you have to realize that the situation has changed and adjust accordingly.

 

She needs to be muzzled until she is comfortable with the situation (and to protect your other dog) and you need to get her off the bed and couch.

[krissn333]

She was not on the couch. She was playing with a toy.

[krissn333]

But unfortunately I think her time out of her kennel will be muzzled time and she is going to have to earn furniture.

I hate that she is going to spend so much time in her crate, but, if she were still with my group she'd be in her kennel except for turnouts.

 

I'll get mom's other crate and set it up in my bedroom.

[Batmom]

If you muzzle one, gotta muzzle all.

 

She's only been there a week. Snaps that connect really stink, especially when they need vetting, but the dogs probably think way less of it than we do, KWIM?

 

Here I'm pretty careful with toys and edibles, for a looooooooong time. I like to leave a few toys out so folks have something to play with, but anything that a dog is crazy for or guards/closely attends for more than a few minutes gets reserved for supervised play only.

[cleptogrey]

"Here I'm pretty careful with toys and edibles, for a looooooooong time. I like to leave a few toys out so folks have something to play with, but anything that a dog is crazy for or guards/closely attends for more than a few minutes gets reserved for supervised play only." batmom

 

well said, excellent advise. they can have toys, kongs etc when clarice is crated and has her own.

 

i can't believe oz got it, not clarice. you have a real whippersnapper there!

[dante2zoe]

Zoe had a ton of issues when she first got here and already bounced once. She put a hole in lots of us in the beginning and when a new dog arrived. They were always muzzled at turn outs, when I wasn't home and in the car. Everyone learned to live quite harmoniously after boundaries were established and their hierarchy was determined. Zoe didn't want to be king of the hill and when they decided who was, she relaxed. It wasn't overnight and took a lot of trial and error and learning on my part. But, I wasn't dog savvy at all (she was my second dog, ever, and Dante (who was first) was that perfect first greyhound) and I had OTJ training about all kinds of issues with her. It wasn't overnight and took months of work and I never truly let my guard down with her in certain situations. We were even able to join a playgroup, attend greyhound events and share a beach house with 12 other dogs without much issue. But, I was always vigilant with her and she actually appreciated (it seemed) that fact that I had her back and kept her calm. The car was always a hot spot, though, until I moved her into the front seat so she was alone. She loved that and would actually relax and sleep then.

 

I must also add, that the bond Zoe and I had working through so many things was awesome and I miss her every single day, warts and all.

 

I hope that your two will reach the same conclusions as my pack did and harmony can be restored.

 

Edited to add, that I am not advocating what you should do one way or the other. I just wanted to let you know that we had a similar situation and it was able to be worked out. I am sure that you will do what is best for Ozzie and yourself.

Edited December 14, 2013 by dante2zoe

[krissn333]

Thank you everyone. Now that I have calmed down a little bit and had some good talks with people I know in "real" life too (no offense to any of you of course but these people know me pretty well), I am confident we can get there. It's just going to require a lot longer period of time and a heavier level of vigilance than I've been employing.

 

She will sleep in a kennel to begin with. As much as I dislike the idea of her being kenneled so much, it's no different than her life would be at the adoption kennel, except here she can be out for several hours in the evenings.

 

No furniture. She's going to have to learn to use the dog bed.

 

She is a pup and has lots of energy so we'll have one-on-one playtime for awhile.

 

While Ozzie heals I'm turning him out separately because with his head bandage he can't be muzzled.

 

What else am I forgetting?

[cleptogrey]

obedience training???

 

it exhausts puppies big time. now that the weather is down right frigid that will be a win-win situation. the practice, time at the training class and the results!~

[greysmom]

A tired puppy is a sleeping puppy! And a sleeping puppy makes everyone happy!

 

Training and play, games in the house, puzzle games for her kennel, walk, walk, walk, maybe some time at day care once or twice a week to work off energy - if she can learn to play nice! Clicker training will work well with her once you find a high value treat she enjoys*.

 

Glad a night has given you some perspective. She was playing with her toy and didn't want Oz around. It likely upset you way more than Ozzie or Clarice.

 

(*Try slicing hot dogs thinly and nuking them in the microwave until they are dry and crunchy - makes them easier to carry.)