Topic 2 For The Night

[Guest iclarkz]

I posted earlier about some chewing issues with our 4 year old grey, so then she decided to give me a potentially more serious issue to deal with! We've had her about 5 weeks.

 

She showed some aggression tonight and it wasn't clear whether it was towards my 9 year-old son or our other dog. She has been so sweet and tolerant of our son, but tonight she was laying down (awake) in the doorway, and our son was laying with his head on her stomach. This is something they have eased into, and have done it a number of times with suoervision.

 

She was giving him all the signs that she liked it. . .putting her head on his hand, pawing for more, and appeared very relaxed. (We were looking for the camera it was so sweet.) I actually thought she was falling asleep. And then, she lunged up and growled/snapped. Her nose did hit my son, but no biting. Our other dog was coming around the table towards them as this happened, and my dad feels that the aggression was protective, and against the other dog and not my son, but I am honestly not sure. I suppose it could also be that she did start to fall asleep and sleep startled, although I haven't seen any other signs of this.

 

So, obviously there will be no more in-the-floor-snuggling, and I feel like I let everyone down by allowing it to happen in the first place. It is so hard, when all signs pointed to it being ok. She has just been unfailingly gentle with my son.

 

She and the other dog are fine 90% of the time, but there has been growling and corrective behavior going both ways since she's been here.

 

So, words of wisdom? Advice besides the obvious "no more kid and dog in the floor?"

 

Feeling sad.

Edited March 8, 2013 by iclarkz

[Time4ANap]

We have a "no petting unless standing up" rule for this very reason. Rocket is the sweetest boy ever, but if he gets too relaxed while you are petting him, he drifts off, then the petting startles him and you get the same reaction that you saw. He has accidentally bitten people twice this way. Neither time was his fault, it was a natural reaction to being startled. Sounds like you may need to implement the standing up rule to avoid a nasty accident.

[Guest iclarkz]

Time4,

You may have hit the nail on the head. I had mentioned to my Dad right before it happened that it looked like she was drifting off. So sad that she seems to like it so much, and yet we can't do it. Any chance that it lessens with age?

 

I suppose she isn't going to be able tonsleep in doorways, etc then if people are passing by/stepping over her?

[greysmom]

From your description it sounds like your girl fell asleep and either your son moving OR the other dog coming up made her startle awake. You will likely never know, and it doesn't really matter. It's just safer for everyone to follow some simple rules.

 

With a dog who has sleep aggression, it's almost always better to direct them to sleep in a specific area - dog bed, crate, etc - someplace well-defined so that you can say "Don't approach the dog when she's on her XXX." If she lays down and looks like she's going to sleep in a traffic area, use a treat to lure her to a better spot. Also, teach her a command like "bed time" or whatever you want to say that will trigger her to move to her "safe zone." Don't try to move her by grabbing her collar. Most greyhounds, whether they are sleep aggressive or not, do NOT take kindly to this.

 

Our first greyhound was VERY sleep aggressive and had a ferocious sleep startle attack. She drew blood on both my DH and I before we wised up. Both times were totally our fault and we didn't blame her at all. She never completely was safe to sleep with on the our bed, so it was better that she occupy a dog bed each night. She also would sleep startle during the day from her dog beds. Another good rule to institute is to never touch a sleeping dog. We got in the habit of calling her name from several feet away, and making *sure* she was awake, before we would approach closer.

 

Two of ours right now also had pretty good sleep aggression when they came here. One settled into home life nicely and quickly and now sleeps with us sometimes. The other one has gotten better, but I think will never be completely safe to sleep with. Fortunately he has exquisite bite inhibition. :rolleyes

[3greytjoys]

I agree with above posters. Yes, your hunch to give your new hound more personal safe space is excellent and important (especially not stepping over her near doorways, if she lands near a doorway, happily call her to encourage her to her own dog bed on floor). Remember that Greyhounds didn't grow up inside family homes, that sort of close contact is foreign to them. Instead, they had their own safe personal resting space. Five weeks in a new home is much too soon to have that sort of close contact. Even after years of living with our hounds, we usually let them come to us when they want attention, otherwise our attention towards them is in brief spurts so they don't ever feel uncomfortable with us.

 

Below is an interesting article by the late, Kathleen Gilley. It offers a glimpse into racing Greyhounds' lives before retirement, and is shared often on GT. (Some adoption groups include it in their new adopter information packets.)

"This breed has never been asked to do anything for itself, make any decisions or answer any questions. It has been waited on, paw and tail. The only prohibition in a racing Greyhound's life is not to get into a fight----------or eat certain stuff in the turn out pen.
Let us review a little. From weaning until you go away for schooling, at probably a year and a half, you eat, grow and run around with your siblings. When you go away to begin your racing career, you get your own "apartment," in a large housing development. No one is allowed in your bed but you, and when you are in there, no one can touch you, without plenty of warning.
Someone hears a vehicle drive up, or the kennel door being unlocked. The light switches are flipped on. The loud mouths in residence, and there always are some, begin to bark or howl. You are wide awake by the time the human opens your door to turn you out. A Greyhound has never been touched while he was asleep. You eat when you are fed, usually on a strict schedule. No one asks if you are hungry or what you want to eat. You are never told not to eat any food within your reach. No one ever touches your bowl while you are eating. You are not to be disturbed because it is important you clean your plate.
You are not asked if you have to "go outside." You are placed in turn out pen and it isn't long before you get the idea of what you are supposed to do while you are out there. Unless you really get out of hand, you may chase, rough house and put your feet on everyone and everything else. The only humans you know are the "waiters" who feed you, and the "restroom attendants" who turn you out to go to the bathroom. Respect people? Surely you jest.
No one comes into or goes out of your kennel without your knowledge. You are all seeing; all knowing. There are no surprises, day in and day out. The only thing it is ever hoped you will do is win, place or show, and that you don't have much control over. It is in your blood, it is in your heart, it is in your fate-- or it is not.
And when it is not, then suddenly you are expected to be a civilized person in a fur coat. But people don't realize you may not even speak English. Some of you don't even know your names, because you didn't need to. You were not asked or told to do anything as an individual; you were always part of the "condo association?; the sorority or fraternity and everyone did everything together, as a group or pack. The only time you did anything as an individual is when you schooled or raced, and even then, You Were Not Alone.
Suddenly, he is expected to behave himself in places he's never been taught how to act. He is expected to take responsibility for saying when he needs to go outside, to come when he is called, not to get on some or all of the furniture, and to not eat food off counters and tables. He is dropped in a world that is not his, and totally without warning, at that.
Almost everything he does is wrong. Suddenly he is a minority. Now he is just a pet. He is unemployed, in a place where people expect him to know the rules and the schedule, even when there aren't any. (How many times have you heard someone say, He won't tell "me when he has to go out. What kind of schedule is that?) Have you heard the joke about the dog who says "My name is No-No Bad " Dog. What's yours? To me that is not even funny. All the "protective barriers are gone. There is no more warning before something happens. There is no more strength in numbers. He wakes up with a monster human face two inches from his. (With some people's breath, this could scare Godzilla.) Why should he not, believe that this someone for lunch? (I really do have to ask you ladies to consider how you would react if someone you barely knew crawled up on you while you were asleep?) No, I will not ask for any male input.
Now he is left alone, for the first time in his life, in a strange place, with no idea of what will happen or how long it will be before someone comes to him again. If he is not crated, he may go through walls, windows or over fences, desperately seeking something familiar, something with which to reconnect his life. If he does get free, he will find the familiarity, within himself: the adrenaline high, the wind in his ears, the blood pulsing and racing though his heart once again--until he crashes into a car.
Often, the first contact with his new family is punishment, something he's never had before, something he doesn't understand now, especially in the middle of the rest of the chaos. And worst of all, what are the most common human reactions to misbehavior? We live in a violent society, where the answer to any irritation is a slap, punch, kick, whip, or rub your nose in it. Under these circumstances, sometimes I think any successful adoption is a miracle.
He is, in effect, expected to have all the manners of at least a six-year old child. But, how many of you would leave an unfamiliar six-year old human alone and loose in your home for hours at a time and not expect to find who knows what when you got back? Consider that if you did, you could be brought up on charges of child abuse, neglect and endangerment. Yet, people do this to Greyhounds and this is often the reason for so many returns.
How many dogs have been returned because they did not know how to tell the adopter when they had to go out? How many for jumping on people, getting on furniture, counter surfing, separation anxiety, or defensive actions due to being startled or hurt (aka growling or biting)? So, let's understand: Sometimes it is the dog's fault" he cannot fit in. He is not equipped "with the social skills of a six-year old human. But you can help him."

-End quote.

 

Btw, growling (or an air snap) is a dog's caution/warning communication, and usually should not be reprimanded. (If reprimanded repeatedly, some dogs might become more likely to skip a cautionary growl or air snap in the future for a bite.) Good to pay attention to their growl, avoid repeating those circumstances. The dogs' growling between each other is likely canine cautionary language as they adjust to sharing their home together. That usually subsides, but it's recommended to separate dogs when feeding meals or very high value chews, etc.

Edited March 8, 2013 by 3greytjoys

[a_daerr]

You can minimize sleep aggression by desensitization training. When she's sleeping, gently throw a balled up sock at her. Poke her with a broom handle. Anytime she responds calmly (i.e. not snapping or growling), toss her a treat. If you do this a few times a day, she'll begin to associate being woken up with something positive. Until then, it's important to only show her attention when you're sure she's 100% awake. Also, a lot of people think, "My greyhound snapped at me, he must be aggressive." While this behavior looks pretty scary, it's not a huge call for alarm. And it doesn't mean the dog is mean or aggressive. In this circumstance, it sounds like your dog was not fully aware of what she was doing. But even dogs who growl/snap when they're awake are not necessarily problematic or unstable. They're giving a warning and telling you, "I don't like this. You're making me uncomfortable." That's 10x better than an unpredictable dog who hauls off and bites.

[Guest iclarkz]

Thanks for all the words of wisdom, guys. We are going to work on moving her out of doorways (totally the best places to sleep and see everything at the same time!) i love the no petting unless standing up rule. Someone mentioned not disciplining her, and no. . .of course not. I knew that we were in the wrong, not her. It was just a surprise. It was funny, afterwards she went directly to my crying, scared son and tried to make him feel better. Perhaps anthropomorphizing a bit, but it was touching. I feel grateful that she seems to have good bite inhibition, and we will try to avoid the sitution again.

 

We will try the desensitization when she has been here a little longer. Thus far she has let us step over her, move around her, etc. with no issues. (Except the other dog.)

Edited March 8, 2013 by iclarkz

[Guest jschwe]

Superbird had a very similar incident about a month ago. He has never shown any sleep agression really, but he is still new so I guess we can't rule it out. In this case, we were with friends, and my one friend was in basically the same position, leaning over with her head on his chest. He seemed to be enjoying it, but then her (small) dog came trotting over toward him, and he growled and snapped. My understanding of the situation was that he felt sort of pinned under her, and with the other dog coming toward him this made him uncomfortable and vulnerable. He has never had another incident, and we are still fine to touch him while he is sleeping, etc. We just make sure to give him space when other dogs are around.

[Batmom]

Some good advice above. Always tempting to cuddle up when dog is lying down but sometimes they do get startled or frightened so we usually use the "let sleeping (or lying down) dogs lie" rule. Most dogs get a little less startle-able as they get used to your home but there are a few dogs who are always and forever best left alone when they're lying down / snoozing.

 

Tell your son these things happen to the best people with the best dogs at times. Not his fault, not the dog's fault, just one of those things.

[Laur]

Also, a greyhound's belly and rib cage does not have the extra cushion protection that say a lab or golden retrievers does.

A bit of a shift or movement and your grey might also have been dug or pinched accidentally.