Osteo Thread Part Vi

[KF_in_Georgia]

Okay. When you are able to feed him, give him bland food--something like baby food that's already "processed" would be best. NSAIDs (like rimadyl) are hard on the stomach, which is why I think you want to talk to his vet tomorrow morning.

 

When Sam was sick, he threw up about 6 hours after I'd fed him and everything in his stomach was identifiable...and he'd been at his vet's in that 6-hour period! I figured it was more a matter of being carsick (he hates the car) than the ulcer. But the next morning I fed him about 8 and we got it all back about 1. I hauled him to the ER for a shot. (When the tech brought Sam back to me and turned to leave, Sam tried to follow the tech--a total stranger. Sam really likes vets and techs.)

 

The ER did advise that if I needed to bring him back in that night, they'd waive their $104 exam fee. Nice, since I'd already paid them nearly $200 for the exam, the anti-nausea med, and the metronidazole injection (which was the most serious of what he'd thrown back up). Anyway, since then, Sam's not allowed to take any NSAID; I'd hate to see Gunner lose that pain relief, which is why I think you need to consult with his vet.

 

P.S. If you have some sort of standard folder for Gunner's vet paperwork, put a list in the front of the folder of exactly what dose of what meds he takes--and how often. Also pull Gunner's most recent vaccination record to the front of the folder, and make sure you make a note of any allergies he might have. If you have to take him to the ER, you're going to want to have that info handy.

Edited March 31, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[Guest FawnFan]

Could it be the addition of the other pain pills too maybe? He's been on the Rimadyl for almost 2 weeks now. I just added the other two pills this week, starting Thursday.

 

I will be calling his Vet in the morning. They don't open until 10 AM though. I was also thinking about calling Red Bank Veterinarian Hospital; their actual Red Bank location where they do a lot of rehab and 24 hour services. They may have more experience with the bone cancer and greyhounds, for that matter.

 

And the bummer is he was really feeling great tonight. I was excited because I thought, oh good, I've found a good mix.

 

He doesn't seem to be in any pain or discomfort at the moment. He's still sleeping and at one point was looking like he was eating in his sleep.

 

Thanks again Kathy. I appreciate the support.

[Guest FawnFan]

I'm making him instant mashed potatoes right now. And he just lapped up maybe 2 tablespoons of the Ensure. I'll try the mashed and then if he doesn't eat those, I'll give him a little more Ensure to make sure he has something in his tummy tonight.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Sam had been on meloxicam for more than two months before he had a problem. Typically, gabapentin and tramadol aren't that hard on the stomach. When I get those prescriptions filled, there isn't even a note about giving them on a full stomach or anything like that.

 

A one-off vomiting episode isn't too alarming unless there are signs of blood in the vomit or in his poop. With Sam, the look of his poop alarmed me so that I had him at the vet's on the Thursday before his weekend vomiting episodes. The poop wasn't bright red, but in sunlight it did look very dark with a reddish cast to it. Things didn't look a lot better two days later, so I took him in on the Saturday to see his regular doctor--and because I wanted to know under what circumstances he needed to go to the ER. The vet said "inability to keep down his food," "fresh blood in his vomit or stool," or "general weakness or collapse." Sam threw up as soon as we got home, but as I said, I attributed that to him being carsick. He ate some Saturday night and looked miserable but held onto it. Sunday's food came back up, and I didn't want to be fretting over him all day and worrying that he might be getting worse, so we went to the ER. They gave him something other than cerenia (I don't remember what it was), and I brought him home. He ate very carefully Sunday night and walked around drooling and swallowing hard--but it all stayed down. By the next day, he was better.

 

I mention all that because the ER can give Gunner anti-nausea meds--and can give him an injection of pain meds if that's the only way to get them into him--but I don't think there's much more they will do, and you probably can manage what you need at your own vet for less money. You and your vet need to try to figure out whether this was a one-off event or the start of something more, so I think you may want to wait until 10am tomorrow just to have a better feel for how Gunner's doing. This may be the doggie equivalent of "take two aspirin and call me in the morning"--where you need to wait to see if there's really a problem.

 

Having said all that, just remember what my vet said were grounds for an ER visit. And don't give Gunner any meds other than what your vet has already prescribed for him now--no pepcid or anything like that. And you might even want to hold off on his morning meds until you know his breakfast is staying down--or until you've spoken with his vet. What I hated with Sam is that he threw up meds, and we had no idea how much had stayed with him so we were reluctant to give more. (He can have tonight's meds. But if he throws up tonight, don't give him meds in the morning until you've spoken with his vet.)

Edited March 31, 2013 by KF_in_Georgia

[JJNg]

Gunner ate almost a whole chicken for dinner and shortly thereafter (this was 5-5:30'ish EDT) I gave him his meds. Just now (9:15 PM EDT) he just threw EVERYTHING up!

 

Do you think he may have just eaten too much? A whole chicken sounds like a lot of food.

 

I also did call the local ER Vet. The nurse said not to feed him anything now and no meds now. She said try feeding him again in 12 hours from now (really???). They want his stomach to "calm down" first.

 

Pretty standard advice for a vomiting dog. However, I probably wouldn't do a 12-hr fast after a single episode of vomiting. Especially if he's acting fine and doesn't seem nauseous, I'd try smaller meals like you're doing.

 

I also found it comical that as the Vet Tech was ending the call with me, she made sure she told me they were open 24 hours a day and to be sure to bring him in if I had more problems, blah-blah... a mini commercial of sorts.

 

Not necessarily a commercial, but more of a standard recommendation from a CYA/liability perspective. It's tricky to give medical advice over the phone, and if they don't recommend bringing him in and things go wrong, they could be held responsible.

 

I would definitely recommend contacting your vet in the morning. Hopefully it was just a one-time episode from eating too much at once.

[Guest FawnFan]

Here's a quick update and then I'll answer specifically...

 

Gunner had maybe 4 tablespoons of instant mashed and maybe 4 tablespoons of Ensure. He then asked to go outside. I followed him out, he peed and was ready to come back in. He did his normal, I'm waiting Mom for my cookie - I went out, and I thought, you're not going to eat it so why bother giving it to you, I told him to go lie down. He didn't. He continued his stance of I want my cookie. So I broke a big milkbone in half and gave him half. He took it and ran off to his bed. As I was loading the dishwasher, I hear crunch, crunch, crunch. So he actually just ate a half of a milkbone too.

 

Thanks Kathy for your insights. I think I'm going to hold off on the meds tonight and wait to talk to our regular Vet in the morning.

 

Jennifer, I was thinking he may have had too much too. It was maybe 3 cups of chicken. It was a small chicken - 2 pounds total, and there's still some left. And thanks for the insights about the CYA/liability piece. I can understand it from that perspective. It just seemed a little out of place or forced - it wasn't a smooth transition to... And don't forget, we're here 24 hours so feel free to bring him in if you have any further issues, problems, etc.

 

And he really does seem fine right now. He's obviously not nauseated or in pain (I'm hoping), otherwise I don't think he would have eaten the biscuit. And he's not drinking any water like he's trying to settle his stomach either.

 

He is licking his right leg right now, with long strokes, which concerns me. Otherwise though he seems fine to me. He seems alert and with it and not looking like I'm sick.

 

So I'll stay up with him for a little while longer and see how things go.

 

Thanks again everyone for your help, advice and support tonight. I really appreciate it.

 

ETA: about the cya/liability piece

Edited March 31, 2013 by FawnFan

[greysmom]

Though it's upsetting, especially with everything else going on, I would not put a LOT of weight on one episode of vomiting. It could have been anything - from nausea relating to meds or his disease, to simply being more active and too bouncy. I would probably have given a small meal/snack with at least his tramadol. If he vomited again though, that would be a call to the vet/ER.

 

Gabapentin can cause stomach issues if given on an empty stomach. I have never experienced it with any of mine that have taken it.

 

You can only give Cerenia for 5 days in a row (due to neurological problems, I think). And as much as you want to stuff him when he will eat, it's probably best to limit his intake and do several small feedings. Being a little hungry is probably better than over-full.

 

One thing to consider, as our Dude went through his amp and treatment, he would get tired and not want to stand and eat where he used to. He was much better lying down on his bed either after or before the others had eaten, when it was quieter and calmer.

[krissn333]

We haven't ever had much good luck with Rimadyl here-Carrie has been the only hound I've had that tolerated it just fine. Ace threw up when taking it, it makes Fritz a zombie, Sutra had trouble with it too.

 

We're a Deramaxx household here:)

[KF_in_Georgia]

I feel as if this announcement should come with trumpets, at least: for the first time in weeks, Sam ate three cups of kibble in a single day.

 

He had four meals today of pulverized kibble mixed with Ensure or yogurt. He polished his bowl clean, every time. (And this means that chubby Silver didn't get extra food today.)

 

This might not last for long, and I need to watch to see that he doesn't have a problem with this much dairy, but apparently, after nearly 13 years, Sam is just tired of food that goes crunch.

 

 

But it's not a problem with his teeth: he'll eat a large Nutri Dent dental chew with no hesitation. I swear, though: he was picking up pieces of kibble, sucking off the Ensure or yogurt, and spitting the kibble back into his dish!

[krissn333]

Sam

 

Dr. Kellogg wins the award for speediest response today-I put in the consult at 2:34 pm, she responded at 4:28. She agrees with the diagnosis and with my decision not to do the biopsy. I told her I ordered artemisinin and curcumin, and that he's on Deramaxx and tramadol and we'll be adding gabapentin and doing the pamidronate. She said that it sounds like I've got a good treatment plan here, and of course expressed her sympathy at the fact that I'm once again facing this dread disease head on. Made me feel better that she thinks we're on a good track for Fritz's care.

 

Many thanks to Snakes for sending me FedX's regimen I just don't know what I'd do without all of you! But I HATE that we're all becoming experts in dealing with this

[Guest FawnFan]

Yay for Sam!!!

 

And Kristin again I'm sorry you're joining the club again. I hope you have many great days with Fritz.

 

 

An update here this morning. No throwing up during the night and he was hungry this morning... well, a picky hungry. He did have 6 pieces of store baked roast beef and 4 or 5 tablespoons of Ensure this morning. He's liking the Ensure which is a good thing. He seems like he's in a little pain this morning. I'm going to give him 1 Tramadol tablet to see if that helps and to see if it stays down.

 

I also found a half of a Rimadyl on the floor this morning; I missed it last night as it blended into the colors of the throw rug in the kitchen. I'm thinking it was his dose (my other chow hound's on it too... yet he eats almost everything). So it appears he didn't even get the Rimadyl last night.

 

And the more I've thought about it, and adding in the lack of Rimadyl last night, the more I'm thinking the throw up episode was an overeating thing (ugh... my mistake).

 

I'll call the Vet at 10 and discuss the next steps.

 

I'm also thinking I may want to switch to Deramaxx now too given the Rimadyl thread and the remote possibility he may have some issues with it.

 

Thanks again everyone for your help and support here.

Happy Easter!

[KF_in_Georgia]

There's usually a wash-out period when you need to change NSAIDs--a period where you have to wait for one med to completely clear the system before you start another--and that could potentially be days. (One site I saw recommended 48-72 hours.) He's already been short most of his last dose, and if you don't give it first thing this morning, you're that far into a potential wash-out period, but you and your vet need to discuss what you'd give Gunner to manage pain between now and the time he could start Deramaxx safely.

[krissn333]

In tough situations where we needed to make a switch quickly and weren't able to do a washout period of more than 24 hours, in both cases we gave Prilosec to help. Of course this was Carrie and Pinky, both of whom have/had tummies not easily upset by anything.

 

We did this under my vet's advisement, so I definitely wouldn't do this without discussing it first.

 

That said, I feel terrible this morning-I just realized I don't have enough tramadol, which normally wouldn't be an issue on a Sunday, except that our pharmacy is closed for Easter

 

I'm texting a few friends to see if they have any that they can give me to get us to tomorrow evening.

[4My2Greys]

I've got (2) bottles of 100mg artemisinin with a mfg date of 2/12 and (2) bottles of Butyrex with an expiration date of 11/13 that were bought from Holley that anyone here is welcome to. One of each bottle has been opened and a little used out of it, but has been closed and stored as directed. Pm me if anyone here would like them. I hate to see them go to waste.

[Guest FawnFan]

So far so good... no throwing up and he's been sleeping most of the morning. He went out and peed then proceeded to ask for a cookie upon his return. I gave him a half, he took it and ran but didn't eat it.

 

Also just figured out our Vet is closed today. So I called the Red Bank ER Vet this time. The Vet tech said to go ahead and give him his meds as scheduled, with small meals, and watch for vomiting. If he vomits again, stop everything. I asked specifically about the Rimadyl and she said yes go ahead and give it.

 

He seems fine now, sleeping in a roached position with legs stretched out, and I'm not going to wake him so I'll wait until lunch time before I give him anything else. Definitely will be doing the Tramadol - 1.5 tablets; may wait on the Rimadyl until dinner time. Gabapentin will go in at bed time. And I may wait on the Rimadyl too if he seems fine today with just the Tamadol. We go to the acupuncturist Vet tomorrow night at 5 PM; that would be 48 hours of no Rimadyl if I wait until then. I will be calling the regular Vet tomorrow morning thou to discuss.

 

Thanks again.

 

Kristin, too bad we don't live closer - I could lend you some of Gunner's Tramadol. Hope you found some.

[krissn333]

Hope Gunner is still resting well

 

I'm so fortunate to have wonderful greyhound friends. My oldest greyhound friend (meaning length of time we've been friends, not that she's old ) had plenty of tramadol to spare so I picked some up from her earlier and of course loved on her 5 hounds while I was there So, Fritz is all set until I can get to the pharmacy tomorrow.

[NeylasMom]

FawnFan, I'm only catching up now, but licking his leg like that is most likely a sign that he's in pain. I didn't see anyone address that so wanted to throw it out.

Re: Rimadyl, I wouldn't necessarily switch unless you have a reason to believe it's causing issues and I don't think one isolated episode of vomiting is (my guess is also that it was related to the quantity of food, especially if he hadn't been eating much prior to that). What I would do to be safe is give pepcid 20-30 minutes before food, then give the Rimadyl with some food, not on an empty stomach. You may already be doing that, I'm not sure.

[Guest FawnFan]

Thank you Jen for your advice and for the licking. I was thinking he is in pain if he's doing that. Haven't been doing the pepcid thing; I will get some so I can try it for the next feeding. I also gave the Rimadyl dose this afternoon because he seemed to be a little more uncomfortable than I'd like to see.

 

He did eat some food for dinner, including a half a bottle of Ensure, yet I couldn't get the Tramadol in. He has figured out there's a pill in the meatballs and decided to spit the pill out. And I'm guessing the Tramadol doesn't taste good so he's protesting eating anything else at this point. Dinner feeding was a good 40 minute challenge so I'm leaving that alone for now (he passed up some left over Prime Rib that my parents brought me - smh). Didn't want to traumatize him further by forcing the pills down his throat.

 

He's resting now finally.

 

Thanks again everyone,

Jean

 

ETA: my name - I forgot.

Edited March 31, 2013 by FawnFan

[lilythetigerdog]

FawnFan - We are giving Lily Tramadol right now too and the only thing she will eat without searching for the pill at the moment is liver pate (we use cheap liverwurst from the grocer) and wrap the pill in that. Not sure if it will work for you, but liverwurst has been great thing for us lately. Glad he's resting now.

[jaym1]

Not sure if you've already tried it, but I can slip any medicine down my dogs's throats as long as it's mixed with a half spoon of peanut butter. Occasionally when the going gets tough, I'll crush up a pill and actually mix it into the PB.

 

Also glad to hear he's resting.

[Guest FawnFan]

Thanks Lily's Mom and Jay for your suggestions. I tried liverwurst last week and he turned his nose up at it. My husband then ate the remaining liverwurst for lunch one day so it wouldn't go bad. I'll have to try it again.

 

And Jay, PB used to work... up until last week. I'll have to try it again too yet I did try it 2 or 3 times last week to no avail.

 

Good news is last night's bed time meal was the prime rib and mashed potatoes he refused at dinner. So the Tramadol and Gabapentin both made it in last night. He also just ate this same thing, with the half of Rimadyl in one piece of the beef, for his "Rimadyl" breakfast. He's in rem sleep right now yet now I'm thinking I could have given him his next dose of Tramadol with the "Rimadyl" breakfast too... ugh. The Tramadol may be delivered with dessert then, my SIL's pound cake, in an hour when my other "chow hound" gets up for breakfast.

 

It's so very sad to just sit here (so to speak) and watch him deteriorate and not be able to do anything to "fix" this.

 

Thanks again everyone,

Jean

[NeylasMom]

The Tramadol does have a very bad taste. You can also try cream cheese, or wrapping it in the piece of lunch meat or cheese. I think they key is variety - never the same thing twice so he doesn't catch on that it's in there. Pill Pockets are expensive but also a good option if he'll eat them.

[krissn333]

Fritz is doing REALLY well. He's not even limping today. Yesterday the limp was so slight that I don't think anyone other than me would've seen it.

 

I have gabapentin on hand should we ever need it. His artemisinin and curcumin should be here in a few days.

 

He was just playing with me. He was REALLY animated and hopping around on the bed, but when I grabbed my phone he chilled out a little bit:

http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af74/krissn333/Ace%20and%20Fritz/635520F1-EE1F-4849-9120-6BBF5CEE9F8F-6611-000003C35DC0E4CA_zpsacda76e1.mp4

[KF_in_Georgia]

I'm glad Fritz is feeling so good and so playful.

 

Not a good evening for Sam. Temperatures are warmer here tonight, and he's been panting some. It might be pain, but he also has LP (mild, so far), and warm weather isn't kind to dogs with LP.

 

He's not maxed out on pain meds. Most days, he could have two more tramadol and two more gabapentin if he needs them. Tonight, he got an extra tramadol and an extra gabapentin about two and a half hours after dinner (and dinner meds). He's sleeping now. I may adjust what he usually gets at supper to give him the extra meds then.

 

He's still eating his pulverized kibble, and all that dairy isn't bothering him.

[krissn333]

Carrie has mild LP and humidity is just not her friend. I have to put in the window AC here as soon as its 75 degrees or it's just too much for her.