Are Some Just "untrainable?"

[Guest FrankieWylie]

I don't really know how to articulate this so it comes across the right way. But I'll try

 

Are there some dogs who just never "click" with learning?

 

Magic seems to have some sort of "mental block" or something. We are trying to teach him "off" but he just doesn't get it. Don't get me wrong, he is great, amazing and very eager to please us. But he just doesn't seem to be able to "learn." Perhaps our methods are out of whack, but Charlie and Sherry have no problem learning stuff. In addition to "off" we have worked on "down" and "come". Neither of these he has mastered. Not even sort of. Because he loves us so much he follows us, but doesn't come when we call (working on recall training). If we work on them coming between Greg and me, he just stands in front of one of us waiting for a reward. Never moving to the other even though the other dogs do :/

 

Anyhow, it's not a huge deal and we will keep working, I'm just wondering in general if there are dogs who don't make the learning connection.

 

 

[silverfish]

Seriously, if he's eager to please and he's worked that one out, chances are slim that he's untrainable. Sure, some dogs are more dense than others, and some are horribly difficult to train, but ... sorry, it sounds as if it might possibly be you who hasn't quite clicked!

 

Seems possible that Magic has been getting away with stuff by pretending not to understand. Really smart dogs will do that! You'll have to work on making it much, much more desirable for him to obey than to disobey. He sounds like a smart dog if he's sussed that he might get the treats more quickly if he takes a short cut and just stands front of one of you, letting the other two run their legs off! You might need to train him separately until he starts to learn what you need him to know.

 

Also, instead of 'off', which is a very soft-sounding word, try using 'Uh-uh!' when you don't want him touching something, or when you want him to stop what he's doing. Pretty much most dogs respond to this, said in a sharp enough and loud enough way, even without previous training. This is because in nature, hard, staccato sounds are almost always warnings (for instance, dog barks, or the hard, quickly-repeated sounds birds make), whereas softer, 'sweeter', undulating sounds (whines, or birds twittering) are more usually communicative. That's a huge generalisation, but it holds fairly true.

 

Growls are kind of in the 'warning' category, but you'll usually find that the more urgent the warning, the shorter and sharper the growl, and if it's really urgent, it'll turn into a bark at the end.

[cleptogrey]

try working him w/o other dogs around. it sounds like you might just find the right key w/ an experienced trainer in a group setting. not all dogs are that responsive to traditional methods, some need off the beaten track stimulation and rewards. some really aren't that interested in training and responding to their trainers, just like some kids aren't interested in reading or math.

[a_daerr]

I had the same experience. Henry was really easy to train- he went right through all his classes and passed the CGC/TDI test with no problem. Truman is in his fourth class, and he still has A LOT of things to work on. I'm not sure it has anything to do with being eager to please- I think some of them just take a longer time and learn in different ways.

 

ETA... much like people!!

Edited November 9, 2012 by a_daerr

[Feisty49]

Keep on trying! I have an only dog so there is no distractions of that manner, but IMO, she can be quite stubborn (and I know there are many who don't think dogs can be stubborn but I disagree -- no big deal) and she can also push buttons to see what she can get away with. Overall, she's a really easy dog (doesn't go on furniture, chew things, jump, etc.), but I'd like her to become a therapy dog and there are certain "tricks" she has to learn in order to pass.

 

What's worked with us is clicker training. I started out by clicking and tossing Annie Bella a treat (very small and smelly) for doing nothing but breathing. :--) I did that a couple of times a day for a few minutes for 3 days. She then associated the clicker with a treat. It was then a matter of catching her doing what I wanted, click immediately and treat immediately. Up until using the clicker, she would come to me in the house 50/50. After one day of saying, "Come," and immediately clicking when her feet started to move toward me and then treating when she reached me, she's now coming 100% of the time, and I am only clicking/treating 1 out of 3 times, soon to go to 1 out of 4 times, etc.

 

If you can separate out your other houndies and work with Magic alone, this might do the trick!

Edited November 9, 2012 by Feisty49

[Guest FrankieWylie]

hhaha! Silverfish, you might be right

 

Seriously though, we have one smart as whip dog (Sherry) and one stubborn as a bull dog (Charlie) and then you have Magic. Our sweet, loving, aloof dog.

 

Clicker training is how we've been working with them. And I think y'all are right, probably more one on one time. The only thing I really want him to learn is off, down, get the hell outta my bed. Because, you know, sometimes there are nights I just don't want him there

 

And perhaps since that is his favorite place to be, he is being a little more defiant! My fault for never considering that part LOL! He just really is so.....aloof!

 

Fiesty49, we have a stubborn dog. I definitely think they can be stubborn! Charlie is the king of "The humans have to make me do it."

[GeorgeofNE]

Funny you should ask, because I have pretty much given up on George. But I don't think he's dumb. I think he just seriously has NO interest in pleasing me, and it doesn't bother him if I express disappointment or withhold praise. He just doesn't really give a darn.

 

Some things he's great at, and he's a wonderful companion, but standard obedience type stuff? Fuggedaboutit! That's OK. He's handsome, he was fast, and he walks nicely on a leash. And he pees outside--most of the time. Good enough for me at this point in my life and for the reasons I have him (companionship).

[Guest FrankieWylie]

Susan, the last three sentences pretty much sum it up. But......I still need my bed every now and again

[Guest HHHounds]

Three hounds can be very much like three kids. Somethings will work with two, but not with the third! May have to reinvent the wheel with this one!

[beledi]

Susan, the last three sentences pretty much sum it up. But......I still need my bed every now and again

Had trouble with Samlur staying off the bed when asked. I had a total knee surgery done in April. He jumped on the bed without permission and hit my knee. I did the scream of death and now he will not get on the bed without permission....It scared him and me both. Funny now. Was not funny then. Not a recomended training method. Edited November 9, 2012 by beledi

[DaisyDoodle]

Is there any possibility of a hearing disorder? Try shaking a treat package out of the dog's sight to see if you get a response. Also, try hand signals along with verbal commands.

[revamp]

My dear greyhound Rocky is about as sharp as a box of rocks. I've had him a year and there is just no teaching him anything. He stands and blinks, and that's the extent of it. Even when he lays down, he plops down with his legs all sticking straight out so he's basically in a standing position but laying on his side. And he blinks. This makes it very very hard to try and mark/form the behaviors I'm looking for (mostly down, but a sit would be great too). Right now I am mainly working on "wait" to get him to stay in one spot until I release him.

 

He does come when I call for him, although I have found he also comes running when I call, "Here kitty kitty kitty".

 

My other non-hound knows a whole repertoire of parlor tricks in addition to basic obedience. He can even turn a light switch off and on, so I've got some successes under my belt. I've also successfully taken three separate dogs (two labs and a german shephard) through the basic obedience and socialization stages of seeing-eye dog training. I'm far from a dog training expert, but I've got a good deal of experience and have worked with a few different professional trainers.

 

My take? Some greyhounds just aren't all that well suited to training--like my precious Rocky. I think any animal can be trained with enough skill, time, and effort...but for some dogs, unless you want to make it a full time job your "bag of tricks" and ability to certify for obedience levels may be limited.

Edited November 9, 2012 by revamp

[christinepi]

I've had Tracker for 3 years and there's almost no teaching him, not even clicker training. He's very sweet overall, so I can live with it. When I've tried to train him, all he'll ever do is look at me and then lie down, as if he can't be bothered to stay standing. Too tiresome. I tried to make it more interesting by moving around, but that didn't help much, either.

 

I don't believe in dogs wanting to please--they do what pleases THEM, nothing more. If it means they can only be really happy when told what to do, like a Border Collie, they'll be thrilled to work, and if it makes certain Greyhound individuals happier to lie down and tune out instead of offering some behaviors (for tasty treats!!) that one could shape, they'll do that. In Tracker's case, I think it's a mix of "density" and a personality that simply isn't terribly motivated to learn.

 

All that said, I think a truly experienced trainer with a huge creative repertoire could get more mileage out of Tracker. I feel he just needs someone who can sell the whole thing to him better. I highly doubt he'd ever get very far with obedience, but I believe he could become simply more interested in enjoying to learn as such.

Edited November 11, 2012 by christinepi

[Sambuca]

Bu is probably the smartest dog I've ever met. Yet, he is completely unmotivated to learn most things. I can not, got the life of me teach him sit or down. But, he picks up other random things. He knows upstairs, u-turn, get Sailor, stay, stay here, wait, come, lets go, pill time, meat, up up, leave it, drop, move, you're lucky you're cute, you're a brat, lay down and relax, do you want to dance, etc... You get the drift. All of what he learned was just by speaking to him as things happen. Often I didn't know he knew what they meant until I randomly said it and he actually listened!

Sailor on the other hand is lucky hes very pretty because he is pretty dumb. He is food motivated so I've been able to teach him basic obedience. He also does not understand off and he will not do anything he knows if I am not holding food. And I really do mean anything. He sometimes stays with a friend while I'm away. She has a large yard. She has a pool off her deck and the deck is closed off for the dogs safety when no one is outside. To get to the large part of the yard the dogs need to go around the pool. Once Sailor is ready to come inside, he stands at the far side of the pool where theres a (closed) gate to the deck. He can't figure out how to get back inside. On 1 week long visit he was taught and figured it out after a couple days. On his next visit a month later, he forgot and had to be retaught after he was found in the dark standing at the closed gate again. And there were at least 3 other dogs outside with him who he saw run around the pool to come inside.

[Guest june]

I've had and trained dogs for many years. Greyhounds are much different to train . . . and I'm still learning. Ask a golden to repeat the same thing over and over and it will generally be glad to do it until you are tired of asking. Ask a grey to repeat something 4x and they quit. It is almost as if they look at you and say, "I've shown you I know what you want. Enough is enough!" That said, there are some that are easier to work with than others . . . I have one of those.

[christinepi]

Completely agreed

I've had and trained dogs for many years. Greyhounds are much different to train . . . and I'm still learning. Ask a golden to repeat the same thing over and over and it will generally be glad to do it until you are tired of asking. Ask a grey to repeat something 4x and they quit. It is almost as if they look at you and say, "I've shown you I know what you want. Enough is enough!" That said, there are some that are easier to work with than others . . . I have one of those.

 

Completely agreed. Tracker is 100% repetition averse. It's just soooo boring, why do it again?? Makes teaching hard.

[3greytjoys]

But, he picks up other random things. Often I didn't know he knew what they meant until I randomly said it and he actually listened!

 

I agree with several posts including one quoted.

 

I've been training dogs for many decades and have trained a good number of Greyhounds, all different personalities. I believe Greyhounds are highly intelligent and very sensitive dogs. Some are more independent (and smart) than others, but all have done well with positive method basic training. Definitely non-physical methods. Most dogs need a valuable reward for themselves to desire to take action: either high value foods and happy praise from their humans, or a special toy, etc.

 

**The most simple way I've found to teach retired racing Greyhounds is to look for them doing something right naturally, catch the action and teach the word at the same time. Be prepared to instantly offer high value reward for doing the action.**

 

A few common examples to help set hound up for success:

 

1. Teaching Down: Watch for hound to lie down on his/her own. Catch that natural action and teach word "down" each time they do that action for a couple of days. Be ready to reward with special treat instantly, and happily offer exciting verbal praise!

 

2. Teaching Sit: Many hounds will place their rear end down on the carpet/dog bed just before dropping into a full down position. Human can catch that exact moment: move to stand in front of hound to stop/block hound from dropping all the way down. Happily teach word "sit" at that moment while offering special high value treat.

 

3. Teaching Wait: Tell hound to "wait" before meals while you're still holding food bowl. Then happily say "release" as you place the bowl into the food bowl stand, allowing hound to begin eating. Also, practice "wait" command during other situations, like waiting before opening door etc.

 

4. "Come" (teach inside before attempting in fenced enclosure) needs major, rare high value treats, and/or favorite toy and a verbal praise party. Happily say hound's name first: "name + come". If hound doesn't respond well, make training more fun - try playfully running away from hound so hound chases you, then treat for coming. Consider time of day when hound is most hungry and energetic. ( #1 basic rule: Never call hound to "come" to human for anything hound doesn't find fabulously positively rewarding. If you need to do something hound won't be thrilled about (like a bath) human should calmly go get hound (vs. calling hound to come).

 

Watch for these natural opportunities. After hound connects word to action, human can practice briefly by having hound "sit" once before each meal, etc. (Just don't expect a Greyhound to hold a sit position for long, it can be uncomfortable for some hounds. Please don't be concerned with side sit vs. straight sit. One may be more comfortable. If hound had a bad racing injury, please avoid teaching sit, it might be painful.) If human begins to feel any frustration. Stop training. A frustrated human will "shut down" a hound from feeling relaxed and safe enough to learn.

 

Like children, dogs (especially retired racing Greyhounds) need consistency and function well when their world is predictable and positive. Just my opinion, it's not fair to be wishy washy allowing certain behavior sometimes but not all the time. Here, we happen to not allow hounds on human furniture for many reasons, but one reason is because over time many dogs can become too protective of their perceived personal resting space. Dogs don't understand why sometimes they're suddenly not allowed to sleep on their big comfy bed or sofa. (Imagine humans visiting a foreign country who wouldn't understand if someone suddenly forced them out of their safe, cozy room.) A dog's basic need is to feel safe in their own resting space.

 

BTW, "off" may work better using a leash + treats, or once hound will come when called, you could try going into another room to shake a treat bag to call him "off" the furniture.

Edited November 12, 2012 by 3greytjoys

[Guest jaws4evr]

Unless there’s actually a mental disability (which I’m sure happens but I’ve never seen it), I don’t think any dog is “untrainable”. Some are for sure smarter or more trainable than others however, and not every dog is suited to every handler either.

 

Our Pitty Mix can pick out commands from long sentences, and has no trouble thinking-on-the fly. Our GH is not that way… she needs direct clear commands with clear body language, and isn’t very adaptable to changes in her routine.

 

BUT she can learn and adhere to a routine like nobody’s business. She’s not a “thinker” but she can absolutely learn with a little more effort!

 

Our GH is as sharp as a bag of rocks (as another posted put it!). She also stands and blinks, but with a lot of consistency we’ve taught her to go to her “bed”, stay, down, jump-in (car), wait (stop moving forward), and “here”. And she knows her name pretty well, and knows when we say “rabbit” there’s probably a rabbit close by!

 

She CAN learn… but she would definitely be a “difficult” dog if you weren’t patient and direct and consistent with her. Trainable? Yes. Versatile? No

Edited November 12, 2012 by jaws4evr

[Guest jaws4evr]

Ung multi post!

Edited November 12, 2012 by jaws4evr

[sobesmom]

I do think that some dogs - like people - are brighter than others. And some are slower than others.

 

I've had a couple fosters - fabulous personality, super eager to please - that just don't seem to "get" much other than the simple, required things (don't mess in the house, sleep here, don't jump on people), basic "life necessary" stuff. Honestly - some dogs just don't seem to have the brainpower to learn extra stuff. That doesn't make them bad dogs - just mentally slow perhaps - and honestly the ones I've known like that have been some of the SWEETEST, most well-behaved dogs, and most fabulous pets ever. They live to be happy - make their people happy.

 

Not all of us are cut out to do calculus. Or even algebra. Sometimes it's really OK to accept the brain in the dogs you have.

[Guest FrankieWylie]

Y'all I'm at a loss with Magic!

 

I mean he just stares at me like"huh?" It's quite endearing actually lol! I think he will be able to learn "off", like he has "wait". Worked more on recall yesterday one on one and he did better.

 

We will work on off with the leash approach and hope he will get it! He is cracking me up though because when he gets off, he will settle on his bed on the floor, wait a few minutes for us to settle, and then get back on the bed. Then, after a few times of us making him get down he waits until we are a sleep, and I wake up in the middle of the night finding myself snuggling the dog we worked hard to get off the bed LOL!

 

I'm a heavy sleeper and he is a sneaky boy.