Oh, The Guilt!

[DesiRayMom]

Last Tuesday, Pfizer sponsered a pain lab at the clinic where I work, with a pain specialist from Michigan (can't remember his

name at the moment). First hour was an infomercial for Pfizer products (Rimadyl, Cosequin); second hour was hands-on palpating,

how to recognize & find sources of pain. Got to admit, the man knew his anatomy.

 

Desi was one of the seniors to get the free consult. Des raced for 3 years, and I knew he had aches & pains. I'd had him on

Carpaquin (NutriMaxx's version of Rimadyl) and an occasional Tramadol or two. Then he went on Atopica for the lesions on his

feet, (did a world of good) but elevated his ALT, so I took him off the Carpaquin so as not to tax his liver any worse, and he

was solely on Tramadol (which now they tell me doesn't work so well, alone, does better with an anti-inflammatory).

 

So this vet starts showing me all the places where his range of motion is woefully lacking, and the tense/sore spots in this

muscle because it's compensating for pain in that muscle........we've xrayed him from stem to stern (I thought), but it seems

we did all but his feet/ankles/wrists, which is where he is worst. I knew he was slowing down, but put it down to the warmer

weather (he's always been a bit heat-intolerant). Not so.....my boy had been seriously hurting.

 

I feel terrible!!! How could I have ignored such a thing? It seems I was just so happy to have those lesions gone from his

toes........

 

Now he's on Gabapentin, and it was also recommended that acupuncture may help as well. I'm quite willing to try, but how does

one go about finding a reputable acupunturist? I have heard that one can do more harm than good, if the person doing the poking

is not adequately trained.

 

Any info & advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

Kathy & Desu

[Guest grey_dreams]

Here is the site for the American Academy of Veterinary Acupuncture. They host a listing of certified vet acupuncturists, and it looks like there are five in Ohio. You might ask your own vet for recommendations, or else just start contacting some of them on the list, and see if you can find one that "clicks" for you. I've had acupuncture done for both Zuki and Zariel, and can say that I was very pleased with the results. Good luck to you and your precious boy.

[Batmom]

Acupuncture: Save your $. Mostly if not entirely placebo effect.

 

Guilt: Save your feelings too. Dogs can't talk, so absent a limp or disinterest in a formerly favored activity, it can be difficult to know if/when they hurt. A range of motion / palpation exam can show up some sore spots that even your dog was unaware of, because he doesn't engage in that type of motion regularly.

[DesiRayMom]

Thanks for the replies. I see that OSU has an acupuncturist on staff, that will be the way I go....if I go.

 

Perhaps you're right, Batmom.....the whole durn thing may have been more infomercial than I realized.

Think I'll give the Gabapentin a while, & see if it makes any difference

 

I'd thought from day 1 with Des that he seemed "gimpy" in the front end. We'd xrayed spine, shoulders, elbows, neck,

but neglected feet/wrists. I had both my knees replaced 3 years ago, so I know first-hand how awful bad joints can make

one feel. Perhaps I'm transposing my personal feelings to him?

 

It's just that I've never,ever seen him run (except in the old racing videos) and he won't even trot more than a few

yards at a time. I can't help but feel that he has pain; and guilt for not trying harder to make it better.

[Batmom]

You're investigating and trying now, and that is what counts! He is lucky to have you.

[FiveRoooooers]

Ditch the guilt. You are the best mom.

 

I saw acupuncture do wonders for both my own horses and some other performance horses that I knew, and it definitely contributed to giving my Great Dane an additional, wonderful year of his life. Animals are so greyt in that the treatment (whatever it is: acupuncture, chiro, massage) either feels good and can be beneficial, or it doesn't; they won't tell us that it feels good just because we hope that it does. If it were me, I would give it a reasonable trial. Good luck to you and your sweet boy.

[Remolacha]

Acupuncture worked wonders for Sugar when she had her spinal issues, it took awhile, but she went from not being able to walk (could barely stand), to about 90% mobility. It impressed me so much I tried it for myself It is true, animals are either going to feel better from the treatment, or not, there is no psychosomatic effect.

[GeorgeofNE]

Gabapentin is for nerve pain. I don't quite understand how this gentleman was able to determine your dog has nerve pain by palpating and moving his joints.

 

George takes 50 mg. Deramaxx daily for HIS aches and pains and assorted inflammed things, and Gabapentin at night because he has LS (which compresses the nerves in the spinal column). He does quite well on this combo.

 

Six months ago, his liver enzymes were elevated, so the vet had me retest him after 90 days, and they were totally normal. She was quite thrilled to hear the Milk Thistle she told me to give him had worked until I told her I did NOT give it to him (seemed to make him pee more). The moral of that story is that ONE elevated ALT would not overly concern me. I'd retest and see if it is still high before I'd take my dog of NSAIDs.

[greyhead]

Acupuncture and chirpractic by a vet certified to perform them have done wonders for both our boys. Made most drugs unnecessary for their mechanical problems the last three years. Only now have we reached a point where meds are needed. Not that there's anything wrong with meds.

[silverfish]

Don't feel guilty. It's destructive and unhelpful - and remember that dogs are extremely good at hiding pain from us. It seems to be a survival trait which they haven't lost.

 

It's a funny thing, but many greyhounds scream blue murder at nothing and yet won't tell you when they seriously hurt over a long period of time.

 

Good luck with finding a pain killer that works for him. I would certainly recommend you try acupuncture; it worked well for Jack until the pain of the journey to the clinic outweighed the benefit for him, and I've had it myself and can vouch that something more than just the small pain of the needles is going on. The problem is that the effect is quite short-lived, so you do need to keep going back.

[DesiRayMom]

Thanks all.

 

Re: the Gabapentin: I looked it up in Plumb Veterinary Drug Handbook; it's listed as an anti-convulsant, which I took to

mean kind of a muscle relaxer. Also, it's metabolized through kidneys. I felt like he meant that since his ALT was high

(side effect of Atopica, as well as nsaid), that Gabapentin may be the best choice to try, and acupuncture was an even

better choice if I wasn't willing to give up the Atopica right now.

 

If any of you remember the pictures I posted a while back of the lesions around his nail beds....they were horrendous.

The Atopica has them gone, and I mean GONE. He's been on it for 5 weeks, we've cut down to every other day, shooting for

twice weekly. Even though one of our vets said his ALT wasn't "raging" high, it was 6 times what it was in December, and

to me that sounds raging high. That's why I cut out the nsaid; 2 things affecting his liver seemed one too many.

 

I'll check bloodwork again in another month. Watch, this time it'll be his kidney values elevated, and that'll give me

something else to worry about.

 

Methinks I may be overthinking this whole thing. The only thing I'm absolutely positive about it that Desi does have pain.

I've thought so from the first day he walked into my life, and somehow I need to find a way to ease it.

[Guest trevdog]

Acupuncture has helped here too.

[greyhead]

Re: the Gabapentin: I looked it up in Plumb Veterinary Drug Handbook; it's listed as an anti-convulsant, which I took to

mean kind of a muscle relaxer.

 

It's not so much a muscle relaxer as it blocks (pain) signals from certain specific nerves. Muscle relaxation is a result, though, of removing the pain that's making them bunch up in the first place. This kind of drug has multiple applications. Hope this helps.

[GreyhoundGirl]

It's a funny thing, but many greyhounds scream blue murder at nothing and yet won't tell you when they seriously hurt over a long period of time.

 

(I'm trying to quote for the first time so I hope it works). This...my Bliss was like this! She would scream bloody murder if you pet her wrong or bumped into her, BUT she fell out of the car and rolled down the driveway and jumped up without a sound (I screamed bloody murder). She got cut on the ice at the dog park and kept running! This was a regular thing with her. I learned if she cried to ignore it, but if something happened and she was quiet, I was worried.

 

They're athletes first and foremost and they act like it. Don't beat yourself up about not recognizing his discomfort-he didn't want you to!

Edited April 29, 2012 by GreyhoundGirl

[Ragsysmum]

A good chiropractor can work wonders for some hounds, but you do need someone who knows what they are doing!

[joejoesmom]

Kathy, you are the best mom that Desi could ever hope for. For his time with me, I always thought that all his pain was caused by his toes. You could always send a little request into the OSU greyhound health and wellness program and ask their opinion about using acupuncture or chiropractic. Or you could just try it and see if it helps. I think the placebo effect that someone mentioned probably applied to us greyhound parents interpreting improvement in pain when it actually didn't improve.

 

Give Desi some kisses from me.

 

Jane

[DesiRayMom]

Jane: Consider him kissed; several times; all from you.

 

Day 3 of Gabapentin; I see no improvement thus far (although dr. told me it may take several days to work up to effect).

He's always happy to go for walk-about, but once we get going, he just plods; like it's such an effort. When we get back

home, he hits the couch before I can even get his leash off.

 

I guess it could be just lethargy, which is also a side effect of Atopica; although all other side effects have pretty

much resolved. Besides which, this plodding thing was going on way before he started the Atopica.

 

Time will tell, I reckon.

[tbhounds]

Kathy- regarding the elevated liver enzymes- have you considered starting Denamarin? I had a hound with a cranky liver and Denamarin was an absolute godsend.

It should be given on an empty tummy (overnight fast is recommended so you would have to schedule that in with consideration the Atopica).

[joejoesmom]

Kathy- regarding the elevated liver enzymes- have you considered starting Denamarin? I had a hound with a cranky liver and Denamarin was an absolute godsend.

It should be given on an empty tummy (overnight fast is recommended so you would have to schedule that in with consideration the Atopica).

Shelby has been getting Denamarin for two years now, after 3 months of elevated liver values. Her liver values are still a bit elevated but the liver appears to be functioning well enough (bile acid test indicates functioning liver). She is a 15 year and almost 9 month old 52 pound "whipador". I truly believe the Denamarin has helped keep her liver functioning.

 

Jane

[DesiRayMom]

Started Denosyl last week when we first found the elevated ALT. We do have Denamarin in our clinic, but the Denosyl was

free product, which means I didn't have to pay for it!

 

Checked ALT/AST again today, AST fine, ALT down 20 points.

 

The derm guy from Novartis is stopping in tomorrow morning, I'll be consulting with him re: the elevated ALT & how soon

I can back down the dose of Atopica again.

 

One of his doctors did an ultrasound on him this afternoon. I tell you, I was SO proud of that boy. She asked me if I

thought he'd lay in the cushy trough on his back......I said "cushy? on his back? he'll think he's in heaven." And he did.

All I did was provide my arms as a pillow, & he laid there & let her goop him up & go. Too bad, she really isn't great

with interpretation & there was a spot she wasn't sure about, so he's going to get it all over again tomorrow with

another doctor.