Growling At Baby

[Guest laurengrey]

Just curious what some of you think.

 

We've had our greyhound, Timmy, for just over 2 years. From the start he has been a dominant dog. He growled at us and my family members in the beginning when we came near him when he was eating, if we took away his bone, etc. That all resolved though after we established ourselves as alpha.

 

Things have been great.... until we had a baby and our friends had babies. The first time my son rolled near Timmy. Timmy was awake sitting in the middle of the family room. He rolled near him and put his arm on him. Timmy let out a growl. The next times were with my friend's kids. One time Timmy was laying in the middle of the walkway. A kid was trying to walk past him and stepped on his tail, Timmy jumped up and growled. Another- a child was crawling around the room. Timmy again was sitting in the middle of the room and when the child crawled up to him, he growled.

 

All three of these episodes I justified that Timmy was hurt, startled, etc. But then he growled again yesterday. This time my son was sitting near me as I was getting ready for work. Timmy came and sat down right next to my son. My son reached over and put his hand on top of Timmy's head (did not pull his ears, collar, just placed his hand on his head). Timmy growled and showed his teeth.

 

I had read a book about Children & greyhounds and had heeded their advice (let a sleeping dog alone, don't let the child near the dog when they're eating, etc). This last episode though frightened me because my son was not hurting Timmy, nor was Timmy asleep or eating.

 

We're starting to think that this is just Timmy's personality- that he is very dominant, pack oriented. He is fine around older children but children under 3 he just doesn't consider higher than him. As hard as this is, we're thinking of giving Timmy up. We plan on having more kids and all of our friends are just starting to have kids so there will always be many children under 3 around. We'd hate to have a situation where Timmy bit our son or a friend's child and had to put Timmy down. It would also be awful looking at my son after he'd been bit and knowing I could have done something about it. This is so difficult though.

[silverfish]

That does sound a scary and stressful situation, for sure. Small children are very vulnerable. Let's think this through.

 

Firstly, the reason for Timmy's growling. When dogs are uncomfortable with a situation they usually try pretty hard to signal this. They try to warn the child away, but unfortunately they do it with dog language. The child doesn't understand and just keeps coming. The dog tries harder, the child still doesn't understand and still comes onward. This is the usual progression:

 

1) the dog will attempt to escape

 

2) the dog will give calming signals - lip licking, turning the head away, 'whale eye', ear flattening, yawning, etc

 

3) the dog will growl

 

4) the dog will snap towards the child, but intends only to snap air (unfortunately at this stage some children get bitten because they are still moving toward the dog and don't have fast enough reactions)

 

5) the dog will bite

 

These that a dog is getting uncomfortable are pretty much the same whatever the reason for his discomfort. Doesn't matter if it's anxiety, defensive aggression, or flat out fear (although there can be other cues as to the reason for his emotional state, like staring if there is aggression, or urinating if it's flat-out fear).

 

Many, many people do not 'read' these signals correctly. You only have to watch the animal-loving TV anchor get bitten in the face to appreciate that. Many, many greyhounds give such subtle signals that they can be missed - even by experienced dog people. MOST children don't understand these signals at all.

 

Next, are you absolutely sure it's 'dominance'? The longer I have dogs, the less comfortable I get with this rationalisation of dog behaviour. It could just as easily be simple fear/discomfort in a situation - and usually is.

 

It's also worth remembering that children naturally do a ton of things dogs simply do not have in their repertoire of normal behaviour and do not like - and although many dogs learn to accept (and often enjoy) them from a human, many do not. These include:

 

Hugging, staring into the eyes, touching the face, patting on the head (or indeed, placing hands or arms over the head), draping arms over their backs.

 

And of course, treading on tails, feet, ears, or any other part is threatening, and often painful, particularly to our thin-skinned greyhounds.

 

Greyhounds are not brought up around young children, so these small, unpredictable, noisy humans take some getting used to. Some take to babies and toddlers really well and seem to understand that they are like pups, and the adults in the family are watching them carefully so they are not the dog's problem. Others remain wary and need to be protected.

 

You've read the books about dogs and children, so you've probably made sure that Timmy has an escape route from the children's attentions, and you've probably made sure that no child touches Timmy while he's on his bed. However some dogs seem to freeze in a situation they don't much like, and Timmy may need a little more proactive help. For the moment, I would babygate him away from the activity and allow him to calm down - a babygate would allow him to observe without being 'in danger'. Goes without saying that he should never, ever be left alone with a child.

 

There are other things you can do, of course. You can muzzle, X-pen, or crate him when the children are around. IF he is happy to be away from the action, you can put him in another room - but most greyhounds are NOT happy with this and it can cause more problems. Personally, I'm not sure that his quality of life would be so great while the children are growing to a 'safer' age, and it's always better to work on the problem than avoid it, but it would save a bite.

 

Having said all of that, if you do not feel up to the task of protecting the dog and the children from each other .. I hate to say it, but you probably would be better to return him before there is a bite incident. Large dogs can do a lot of damage to small children, which isn't good for either of them.

[3greytjoys]

I'm sorry you are in this difficult situation. I would urge you to contact your adoption group to inquire about a professional behaviorist with whom you could discuss your situation ASAP.

 

For now, I would suggest you monitor Timmy very carefully: Please muzzle him whenever your child or other young children are awake and active nearby. Give Timmy "protected" space where he can continue to feel part of family activities and is able to watch happenings, but is safely protected from young children.

 

Examples: Baby-gate him in the room right next to the main daytime activity room so he has freedom, can watch happenings and still feel "part of the family" but there is no chance of him being knocked into, stepped on, etc.

 

If he likes his crate, crates can be a good brief "safe zone" for dogs while young children are awake and playing nearby. This is not to punish him in any way, but to protect Timmy and the children before anything progresses. In fact, dogs should not be punished by putting them in a crate or baby-gated area. It's very important for those areas remain safe, happy zones.

 

Timmy is giving many clear warnings of his unease around children. I'm glad you are noticing and asking about this now. You can do a search on this subject on Greytalk. Also, please search "calming signals" and/or "Turid Rugaas" on Greytalk so you can have a better reading of Timmy's canine language before he growls and snaps. (BTW, a warning growl is good. If growls are "corrected" by humans, he may not growl next time and go directly to a bite.)

 

Some retired racers haven't been around young children much, especially if their farm and kennels were child-free. Most are used to having completely undisturbed and respected resting space in the "safe zone" of their crates on their farms and racing kennels.

 

BTW, odd as it seems, many dogs don't like being petted on top of their heads. Reaching over the dog (even by a small arm) is considered dominate behavior in dog language. Also approaching a dog directly head-on, face-to-face can be threatening. Dogs are usually more agreeable to petting their side or shoulder while awake and standing.

 

Please be very careful in managing whereabouts of children and Timmy. Avoid allowing children near his side of the room on floor level. He is clearly uncomfortable around small children. A dog reacts faster than a human, the muzzle is very important for now. Hopefully, a behaviorist may be able to help. Otherwise, Timmy may be more comfortable in an adult home. Good luck.

 

ETA: Well written Silverfish... Sorry I didn't see your response before I posted.

Edited March 1, 2012 by 3greytjoys

[Guest laurengrey]

Thank you both for your responses! Silverfish it's like you wrote down what my thought process has been for the past 2 days. I've thought about using a baby gate, getting them separated and ways to avoid an occurrence but like you said many greyhounds don't like being separated from everyone. This is how Timmy is. He gets very stressed out if he can't be right near me. One Thanksgiving we put him in our master bedroom where he sleeps so that he could be away from all the chaos. He became so anxious in there that he peed all over the floor. Our bedroom door is always open and when he does go in there we make it his safe place- none of the kids can go in there. Unfortunately, I've never seen Timmy walk away from a situation. If he did that would be great! He usually just keeps his same spot and lets the kids know that he won't tolerate their behavior. I've watched him to look for early warning signs- like you mentioned. The last time that he growled I was with both my son and Timmy, maybe a foot away. It seemed that being next to Evan did not make Timmy anxious but Evan putting his hand on him did. I wish though Timmy would have gotten up at that point rather than growling. He had been the one to sit right next to Evan! Whenever Evan's crawling and he's going towards Timmy I would always redirect him- but it's frustrating if Timmy is the one to approach Evan and then sit near him.

 

Like both of you mentioned, I can babygate them to keep them separated, muzzle Timmy, etc. But like you said Silverfish- what kind of quality of life would that be like for Timmy. We plan on having another baby soon- so let's say I get pregnant this fall and have the baby the following summer and I would like to have a 3rd child... so Timmy would be 11 by the time all the children were over 3. That would be his entire lifetime cooped up and separated from us, with us ensuring that the older children don't let Timmy out near the baby... I think it would be so stressful. I would feel so bad for Timmy. He really does love adults and I think another family could make the rest of his life a lot more enjoyable than we could.

 

At this point it's hard to think about living without Timmy but I know that we'll adjust with time. I really appreciate your comments and advice!

[Guest BrianRke]

When my toddler nephew comes to visit, Diamond retreats upstairs to one of the bedrooms. She has plenty of places in which to "escape". She does come around him some, like when its time to eat or she wants to go outside, but for the most part she keeps her distance.

 

The other two dogs follow him around like a, well, like a dog Frank sees him as a food source and Daytona just loves him

[Guest KennelMom]

I had read a book about Children & greyhounds and had heeded their advice (let a sleeping dog alone, don't let the child near the dog when they're eating, etc). This last episode though frightened me because my son was not hurting Timmy, nor was Timmy asleep or eating.

 

Just because a dog isn't being hurt/threatened/eating/sleeping doesn't mean they want to be touched. I'd much rather have a dog like Timmy that's willing to give a very clear warning.

 

That said, if a dog and small children aren't something you want to manage moving forward, I do think you should consider returning him. This isn't a greyhound/small child thing. It's pretty much a dog/child thing.

[Guest SoulsMom]

I had read a book about Children & greyhounds and had heeded their advice (let a sleeping dog alone, don't let the child near the dog when they're eating, etc). This last episode though frightened me because my son was not hurting Timmy, nor was Timmy asleep or eating.

 

Just because a dog isn't being hurt/threatened/eating/sleeping doesn't mean they want to be touched. I'd much rather have a dog like Timmy that's willing to give a very clear warning.

 

That said, if a dog and small children aren't something you want to manage moving forward, I do think you should consider returning him. This isn't a greyhound/small child thing. It's pretty much a dog/child thing.

 

[greysandmollie]

I can completely see your point that if you are going to have small children for the next many years is Timmy the right dog for you. Probably not....I would rather see you give up a dog so he can find a family more suited to his personality that manage a situation that has potential for disaster.

[Guest mariah]

I'm so sorry you have to be going through this. I'm sure it's a very difficult situation. The living conditions you describe sound rather dangerous to both child and dog. There's no shame in returning Timmy if you feel that he is a bite risk. I'm not sure that I would be comfortable having him in the home if I were in your position, either. If you aren't decided on the matter, I agree that you should contact a behaviorist ASAP. Good on you for being proactive and doing something before he's bitten someone...dogs with a bite history are much harder to rehome. Best of luck, I'm sure this is very hard on you and your family.

[SPDoggie]

As a mom of 2 greyhounds and a 2.5 year old... the dogs have never played/slept/hung out in the same room as Elsie. If Elise's playing in the LR, then the dogs are gated out of the room.

As she has grown, they certainly interact and she laughs out loud when their tails thwap her in the head, and we all go for walks together and such... but we just don't allow child/dog interactions all down on the floor together.

 

I was pleased when Elsie was less than 2 and she said, "doggies on beds... leave alone"

 

So just simply separating them might give Timmy some calm he needs.

Bets of luck, and if it does become safer to re-home him... you have shown him the love he needs to protect him from the stress.

[vjgrey]

From the start he has been a dominant dog. He growled at us and my family members in the beginning when we came near him when he was eating, if we took away his bone, etc. That all resolved though after we established ourselves as alpha.

 

We're starting to think that this is just Timmy's personality- that he is very dominant, pack oriented.

 

I don't have kids (and have no plans to have any), so others can give you much better advice on that.

 

I did want to say, though, that what you've described is NOT a sign of a "dominant dog." It's fairly normal, expected behavior for a greyhound who's just learning what it means to be in a home. It's a very different life than they're used to, and it can take some hounds time to learn/adjust (and the process is helped by using "trade up," techniques, etc... rather than just trying to take his bone).

 

This article may be helpful.

[Guest laurengrey]

I called our greyhound rescue organization tonight to let them know that we'll be giving Timmy away. I was crying so hard afterwards. This is so difficult! Yet I know in my heart that it really is the best decision for both Timmy and our son.

[macoduck]

Giving away as in back to the group?

[a_daerr]

Henry used to be terrified of children. We worked through it with positive reinforcement training. We'd let our kids skip around the room, yell in high pitched voices, pretty much all things kids do. All the while, we'd give him high value treats (cheese, lunch meat, hot dogs). I know it's scary, but it sounds like Timmy is fearful due to the couple negative encounters he's had. Baby gating won't help the situation- it will cause him to continue thinking that bad things happen when children come around. Muzzle if you really feel like safety is an issue. Good luck!

 

I wrote this before reading your last post. Very sorry things turned out this way.

Edited March 2, 2012 by a_daerr

[Guest mariah]

I called our greyhound rescue organization tonight to let them know that we'll be giving Timmy away. I was crying so hard afterwards. This is so difficult! Yet I know in my heart that it really is the best decision for both Timmy and our son.

 

[Guest laurengrey]

So the organizer at our rescue group just emailed me to let me know that they'll probably be coming to get Timmy this Saturday! Wow so soon! It is very sad to think of him going so soon! We have just started adjusting to the idea of losing him. The family that adopted Timmy's brother would love to take Timmy. This would be great. I'm really happy about this- I think Timmy would be so happy there. This sounds like the perfect solution. It is still very sad to think of losing him but I'm really happy he'd be going to a good home.

[Batmom]

I'm sorry things aren't working out in your household but glad that there is a good if heartwrenching solution for everyone.

[Guest laurengrey]

:weep :weep :weep

[Guest HHHounds]

This is difficult, but you are doing the right thing for both your baby and Timmy...

[GeorgeofNE]

I had read a book about Children & greyhounds and had heeded their advice (let a sleeping dog alone, don't let the child near the dog when they're eating, etc). This last episode though frightened me because my son was not hurting Timmy, nor was Timmy asleep or eating.

 

Just because a dog isn't being hurt/threatened/eating/sleeping doesn't mean they want to be touched. I'd much rather have a dog like Timmy that's willing to give a very clear warning.

 

That said, if a dog and small children aren't something you want to manage moving forward, I do think you should consider returning him. This isn't a greyhound/small child thing. It's pretty much a dog/child thing.

 

 

Yup, and do it now since I think you probably made the decision before you posted--that's not a flame. I think that it's a hard thing for you, but very few people are willing to put in the kind of constant vigilance this dog seems to require.

 

He'd be a perfect dog for someone like me though, so the sooner the group gets to work on that, the better for him!

 

Best of luck.

[Guest laurengrey]

Thanks everyone for your support. This is one of the hardest decisions that I've ever had to make. We love Timmy. I'm going to really miss taking him for walks and to the dog park. I'm going to miss seeing him run and hearing him howl. I'm feeling better about the decision though every minute hearing all of your comments and thinking about what the best life is for everyone. I truly would feel awful keeping Timmy and always keeping him separated from the baby. It would be a short time right now but in another year we hope to have another baby. It's just not fair to him. Plus in the beginning when my son was really young I couldn't take Timmy for long walks or to the dog park because I was trying to survive each day with a newborn. With taking care of the newborn and not getting any sleep at night it was difficult finding time for Timmy. Timmy deserves better. I'm hoping that whoever adopts Timmy would let me see him once in awhile at a meet n greet or at the dog park.

 

thanks everyone, please pray for Timmy and my family as we make this transition.

[Guest verthib]

1330626722[/url]' post='5180237']

As a mom of 2 greyhounds and a 2.5 year old... the dogs have never played/slept/hung out in the same room as Elsie. If Elise's playing in the LR, then the dogs are gated out of the room.

As she has grown, they certainly interact and she laughs out loud when their tails thwap her in the head, and we all go for walks together and such... but we just don't allow child/dog interactions all down on the floor together.

 

I was pleased when Elsie was less than 2 and she said, "doggies on beds... leave alone"

 

So just simply separating them might give Timmy some calm he needs.

Bets of luck, and if it does become safer to re-home him... you have shown him the love he needs to protect him from the stress.

 

Thank you for not getting rid of your dog just because you had kids. So many people do that. You took the necessary steps to make the situation work.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Over and over again people come here with small children with the same dilemma. More groups should make a child class mandatory before adopting a greyhound, I think these posts would be dramatically reduced. Partly the parents need to do research as well (and not have the knee jerk reaction), but I believe that half of the responsibility lies with the adoption group as well.

 

So sad to see this come up yet again...

Edited March 2, 2012 by Greyt_dog_lover

[Guest verthib]

1330696021[/url]' post='5180799']

Over and over again people come here with small children with the same dilemma. More groups should make a child class mandatory before adopting a greyhound, I think these posts would be dramatically reduced. Partly the parents need to do research as well (and not have the knee jerk reaction), but I believe that half of the responsibility lies with the adoption group as well.

 

So sad to see this come up yet again...

 

Me too. It really gets in my craw.

[Guest mirinaaronsmom]

So the organizer at our rescue group just emailed me to let me know that they'll probably be coming to get Timmy this Saturday! Wow so soon! It is very sad to think of him going so soon! We have just started adjusting to the idea of losing him. The family that adopted Timmy's brother would love to take Timmy. This would be great. I'm really happy about this- I think Timmy would be so happy there. This sounds like the perfect solution. It is still very sad to think of losing him but I'm really happy he'd be going to a good home.

 

Wow - Timmy will have a wonderful home if he goes to be with his brother! (Kim will have her hands full!) And the best part is that we get the twin brothers at our Meet 'n Greets.

 

Try not to be too hard on yourself, Lauren. Enjoy your time together. I wish I could handle 3 hounds long-term, but we've loved having Timmy as a houseguest and he's welcome anytime Kim might need us to sit and I will tell her so next time I see her.