Dealing With Obnoxious Little Yappers

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Gracie hates them. I can't really say I blame her. We live in a garden apartment community and Gracie is the only Grey here. There are a couple of Pit Bulls, a Bullmastiff, a large Retriever mix, a French Bulldog, a Mini Schnauzer, a Chihuahua and several toy dogs of the fluffy white yappy variety. Gracie is quite friendly, if a bit overly playful, with the large dogs. She stalks the Frenchie, who rarely barks. With the other small dogs, she FREAKS OUT. Usually they start it by yapping at her as soon as they see her. Then the savage beast comes out and she barks ferociously at them, pulling and jumping around like a maniac. She nearly knocks me over, she gets so crazy. Of course, the owners of the small dogs then act as if it's all Gracie's fault. I don't pull or jerk the leash, I just shorten it as much as possible and say "NO" as soon as I notice her begin to get agitated. If they don't yap, she shakes with excitement and watches them, and may or may not bark once as they pass. This is the best we can do.

 

We've used a harness with good results (much milder response to the little buggers) in the warmer weather, but with the cold weather here, Gracie needs a coat and the harness just does not fit over or under her coat without severely restricting movement. So it's back to the collar for walks. Obviously I know I can't get these people to control their little dogs. And I know that the instictive response to hunt/chase small fluffly creatures has been bred into Greys for thousands of years. At this point I'm just worried about Gracie damaging her throat with all the lunging she does when we encounter these little dogs. She hacks and coughs afterwards, and her bark while lunging sounds strangled and raspy. Also, I don't want her to earn the reputation of being aggressive or unruly. She walks very nicely on leash otherwise.

 

In all other settings, Gracie is a perfect lady, gentle, calm and obedient, even with small children. We don't have the option to avoid these dogs altogether since we live in the same community and of course all the dogs must go outside for walks and potty time.

 

What can we do?

[OwnedBySummer]

I would make a harness opening in her coat and put the harness underneath. Or buy a larger harness so it fits overtop. Or pick up another coat where the harness would work. The bones in the throat of a dog are quite delicate and, as you are, I'd be concerned about the stress on her throat.

 

Since I wouldn't want my grey reacting like this, I would also start trying to train her for a different reaction when the small dogs show up. Get her to do something when you see the yappers coming, like "sit" and then "watch me". Keep feeding treats. I'm guessing the yapper's people won't work with you on this?

Edited February 22, 2012 by OwnedBySummer

[spottydog]

We just had a trainer in for a similar problem and her solution is to distract with really good treats. It's sorta working...and so is the harness thing. Who knew they would be much less reactive when they weren't attached at the collar?

[DocsDoctor]

Distracting with treats sounds good.

 

Turning sharply round and walking her in the other direction when she starts to react is also good, but I can see this may not always be possible if you are meeting them in the environs of your apartment. But it will help if you can be proactive on her behalf - I bet at the moment you are getting anxious too and she will sense that! If you can see/hear the little dogs starting to kick off, put Gracie behind/beside you as you walk past so they are not in her face, and that will help BOTH your confidence.

 

Part of the problem as you say is that she's not used to little fluffy dogs - if the owners of these ones won't help out, can you find somewhere else where she can meet some nice ones under controlled conditions and realise that they are 'real dogs' too? E.g. a mixed-breed dog obedience class with a good trainer? I found this a great help with Doc who came to me fresh from kennels. We had particular problems with puppies - their squirmy movements looked all too like prey - so she let him sit in on a puppy class too, and even sniff the smallest, whitest and fluffiest specimen! No more problems after that...

 

Relax, persevere, and hopefully Gracie will end up like Doc who now just ignores the little pests. It is a great satisfaction to me as we walk past them and their owners to say loudly 'Just ignore that rude little dog... GOOD BOY!' .

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Relax, persevere, and hopefully Gracie will end up like Doc who now just ignores the little pests. It is a great satisfaction to me as we walk past them and their owners to say loudly 'Just ignore that rude little dog... GOOD BOY!' .

 

I love that. They are rude little dogs.

 

You're absolutely right - I have to work on being less anxious when the little buggers show up. I've been trying, but you know dogs, you can't fool them about your feelings.

 

Oddly enough, Gracie is just fine with puppies. She's very patient with them - she seems to get that they're babies. But the full grown yappers are a different story...

 

I will definitely try fitting her harness over the coat and bringing some special treats with me to distract her.

 

Thank you all for your suggestions! I'll keep you updated on her progress.

[greytpups]

Giselle here on GT has some greyt videos of "look at me" training which may help.

[Guest amazing_gracie]

So today was very mild and we didn't need coats anyway, so I put the harness on Gracie and we took a walk outside of our development and into a nearby neighborhood. We encountered a little white fluffy dog lying on his front lawn. He was amazingly polite and only stood up and wagged his tail. Gracie at first just stared, then began stalking him, and then he made a little excited whimper and she lunged and barked. I stood firm and said "NO!" She went back to staring at him. We stood there for awhile until she got bored and we walked away. The little guy was probably the best behaved small dog I've ever encountered. No owner in sight, even when Gracie barked.

 

Anyway, I praised her for walking away calmly. We didn't encounter any other dogs. She walked strangely slow and lagged behind me. I thought she was just not used to the harness, after not using it for a few months. We just took our bedtime walk and used the harness again, this time over a lightweight fleece for warmth. She was lagging again. After removing the harness, I checked her "armpits" because I thought maybe the harness might be chafing her there and that could be why she was walking so slowly. I checked earlier too. She was fine. But she just laid on her bed and I looked at her chest (Which is bald, and has been since we got her. Her butt and thigh hair grew back, but not the chest.) and she has 2 red sore spots. I feel terrible! THAT'S why she was lagging!

 

Now what do I do? I adjusted the harness according to the manufacturer's directions. It even has a velvet chest strap for comfort. I feel like an awful dog Mom right now. I can either strangle her with the collar or give her sores with the harness.

[GeorgeofNE]

I'm personally opposed to the harness, at least on my dog who is a breed snob. You have virtually no control of the biting end of the dog, which is really what you need to contain.

 

I use the treat distraction method, which has worked SO well at this point, that any time George sees another dog, he expects a cookie!

[JoJo207]

I also recommend the distract with treat method. It has worked well here with Rex's leash aggression. Like with GeorgeofNE, it has worked so well both of mine look to me for a treat whenever we hear a dog barking or see another dog. Actually I just have to put my hand on my dog walking purse and they both start expecting a treat. It's a big help when Rex decides I'm walking in the wrong direction and puts the brakes on.

[Guest NJgrey]

Remove her from the vicinity of the little barkers as quickly as possible with as little fanfare as possible. Just keep walking. That's what we do when the little lunatics in our townhouse development start trouble. Ellie never barks back, she always tries to run away, but we found it's best to just get her out of that situation as fast as possible.

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Remove her from the vicinity of the little barkers as quickly as possible with as little fanfare as possible. Just keep walking. That's what we do when the little lunatics in our townhouse development start trouble. Ellie never barks back, she always tries to run away, but we found it's best to just get her out of that situation as fast as possible.

 

 

I do try to get her away from them as quickly as I can. But she seems to fixate on them as soon as she sees them, whether they bark or not. If they bark it's even worse because she gets more excited. Either way, I try to keep moving away from them but she will whirl around to keep looking at them and has nearly knocked me over a few times. All the whirling and lunging causes her to strangle herself with the martingale, and I can't seem to break her fixation until they're out of sight. She actually behaves better when she sees squirrels on our walk. On the rare occasions when I spot the little buggers before she does, I do a quick about-face and we go in the opposite direction without Gracie being the wiser. But obviously her long range vision is much better than mine.

 

An update: I put some healing salve on her sore spots last night. This morning they were gone, so I guess it was just a superficial irritation. I had the day off today and it was again unseasonably mild, so I carefully refitted the harness and we went to the park. I filled my jacket pocket with stinky liver treats and also brought her martingale, just in case. I gave her treats as soon as she spotted other dogs. We had some friendly encounters with a large mutt, a 9 month old German Shepherd, and a very young Boxer mix puppy. She lunged twice - once at a teacup Chihuahua, once at a very vocal Poodle-ish looking dog. Overall, we did very well and we stayed at the park for about 3 hours. By the time we left, she actually ignored a little terrier! She was fine with the harness, I guess it was just improperly fitted yesterday. I still prefer the martingale to walk her, but I think I'll continue to use the harness while using treats to train her to ignore the little dogs. I hope we make progress!

[Guest sweetpea]

"Look at me", "look at that", or "watch", pick one that works for you.

Work on it in your house without distractions.

Work on it on your walks when there are no other dogs or distractions around.

Work on it when there are "easy" distractions around. (Easy as in below her threshold of violently reacting.)

It's a long slow progression, and you need to keep building from easy situations to more difficult ones.

 

Is there anyway you can change your walking schedule to avoid bumping in to other dogs?

 

I know you're worried about her injuring herself, and it's a valid concern, but training won't fix this

overnight. That's why I would change my walking schedules and avoid conflict as much as possible while

you're in the early stages. (Yes it might be inconvenient to be walking at Oh-dark-thirty in the morning,

but it will help the endgame of Gracie learning a new reaction AND not hurting herself.)

 

This little booklet by Patricia McDonnell was a great help to me.

Feisty Fido

 

Good luck!

 

Buzzy

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will use them in our training sessions. And I will read that booklet.

 

As for changing our walk schedule, my work schedule fluctuates each week and that usually dictates the times I can walk Gracie. Most of the time, our morning walk is not a problem, because I usually go into work early so we are out walking at around 6:45 am and do not encounter other dogs that early. But on the weekends, there is the possibility that we do encounter other dogs in the morning. And for our bedtime walk, we may or may not encounter other dogs - we start our walk around 9 pm. We have had some nasty encounters at that time but also have had very quiet walks where we don't meet anyone at all. It's probably a 50/50 chance.

 

In just this last week of working on this, she has begun looking for treats from me when I ask for her attention, indoors and out. I'm taking that as a good sign!

[Guest sweetpea]

Thank you for the suggestions. I will use them in our training sessions. And I will read that booklet.

 

As for changing our walk schedule, my work schedule fluctuates each week and that usually dictates the times I can walk Gracie. Most of the time, our morning walk is not a problem, because I usually go into work early so we are out walking at around 6:45 am and do not encounter other dogs that early. But on the weekends, there is the possibility that we do encounter other dogs in the morning. And for our bedtime walk, we may or may not encounter other dogs - we start our walk around 9 pm. We have had some nasty encounters at that time but also have had very quiet walks where we don't meet anyone at all. It's probably a 50/50 chance.

 

In just this last week of working on this, she has begun looking for treats from me when I ask for her attention, indoors and out. I'm taking that as a good sign!

 

Yeah, scheduling is tough, believe me! 'Just when I think I have all the other "trigger dogs" walk times figured out, somebody

changes up on me. (Why they don't clear it with me first is a mystery. )

 

The booklet is very helpful but also somewhat unrealistic in how much control we (owners who are trying to teach

our dogs to react better) actually have over the environment we find ourselves walking in.

 

You just do the best you can, and try not to get discouraged, and try to stay consistent and calm.

 

Good luck!

 

Buzzy

[Guest amazing_gracie]

 

Yeah, scheduling is tough, believe me! 'Just when I think I have all the other "trigger dogs" walk times figured out, somebody

changes up on me. (Why they don't clear it with me first is a mystery. )

 

The booklet is very helpful but also somewhat unrealistic in how much control we (owners who are trying to teach

our dogs to react better) actually have over the environment we find ourselves walking in.

 

You just do the best you can, and try not to get discouraged, and try to stay consistent and calm.

 

Good luck!

 

Buzzy

 

Scheduling is difficult in my neighborhood because no one else seems to keep a set dog walking schedule! And unfortunately the owners of small dogs in my area are inconsiderate in general. They allow their dogs to antagonize larger dogs, they don't control the little buggers at all. And several of them do not even pick up after their dogs. It's frustrating.

 

Thanks for the information and encouragement! I appreciate it. I know it may take time, but my girl is a quick learner once I've gotten my teaching technique right!

[Brandiandwe]

With the fixation thing, it is possible to eventually control it. We're still working on it with our high prey drive PK. What has helped is taking her to a mixed breed obedience class where she has realised that small fluffies are dogs too. I've been taking her there a bit tired and the first week she basically freaked out. Before class had started she had lunged at two small fluffies, and she fixated on a small poodle as well. She also went into complete shut down when she ended up surrounded by other big dogs. Now she doesn't fixate (as much) on our walks, and at obedience she ignores the small fluffies. If she now does fixate, she is quick to come back to me.

 

What has changed is that I've become more confident dealing with her, that I'm starting to trust her reactions and understand when they're coming, and she is trusting me more. But she is high prey and will always have that fixation thing in her.

[Guest sweetpea]

<snip>

What has changed is that I've become more confident dealing with her, that I'm starting to trust her reactions and understand when they're coming, and she is trusting me more. But she is high prey and will always have that fixation thing in her.

 

This to me is the key to any obedience class, learning how to trust yourself and your ability to communicate

with your own dog. Plus also, it's fun!

 

Buzzy

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Interestingly, I've noticed a huge difference between indoor and outdoor behavior between Gracie and small dogs. I have a friend who owns a French Bulldog. We occasionally walk the dogs together and she will sometimes bring her dog over to my place. When she brings the dog inside, Gracie is friendly and will play with the Frenchie. But when they are outside, Gracie stalks her in a very predatory manner, and if the Frenchie makes any sudden moves, Gracie pounces. We have successfully walked them on a trail together, but each time, she needs to be reminded that the Frenchie is a "real dog" - usually this involves my friend picking the dog up to allow Gracie to sniff her rear without any sudden moves from or danger to the smaller dog while this "reminder" takes place. It seems each time Gracie encounters a small dog, she needs to be reminded that they are dogs too. But with most small dogs we meet, there is a lot of yapping and uncooperative owners so the reminder sniff never takes place and Gracie just gets worked up with the yapping and lunging from the little buggers. Then she lunges herself and gets choked by the martingale, and over time, it develops into "those little yappy creatures are evil, I get choked whenever they're around." The Frenchie doesn't bark; I think that is a major factor in Gracie not immediately lunging at her.

 

We are doing very well with "look at me" training. Instead of a clicker or vocal command, I use a quick kissing sound, which we've used in the past to get her attention. Now I'm just reinforcing that with a treat each and every time she hears that sound. I tried it on our walk tonight when we both heard yapping and she started focusing in on it. I made the sound and she turned right around and looked for her treat!

[Brandiandwe]

To me, this sounds like a prey drive thing and not an aggression thing. Although the training is similar, the causes are different. I was told that I needed to be careful of what and when I treated post-fixation. If you do it after she's fixated, then she's taught that fixation and then looking at you means a treat = fixation is acceptable. So you need to get attention back on you, get her to work a bit (I find walking in tight circles rather than sitting, but sitting would also work), hound relaxes then treat, because this teaches her that fixation = hard work but relaxation and ignoring small fluffies = treat. I'm not sure if this is entirely accurate but it does seem to have worked.

 

The fixation is also different to reactivity to other barking dogs, which I'm till working on. There, reaction also = work, relaxation means we can continue with our walk and a treat. This is where 'watch me' works. So lots of circles and changes of direction, abrupt stops, anything to focus the attention back on me and make it clear that I'm in charge and in control of the situation. It's working well with PK and starting to work with Brandi too.

[Guest amazing_gracie]

To me, this sounds like a prey drive thing and not an aggression thing. Although the training is similar, the causes are different. I was told that I needed to be careful of what and when I treated post-fixation. If you do it after she's fixated, then she's taught that fixation and then looking at you means a treat = fixation is acceptable. So you need to get attention back on you, get her to work a bit (I find walking in tight circles rather than sitting, but sitting would also work), hound relaxes then treat, because this teaches her that fixation = hard work but relaxation and ignoring small fluffies = treat. I'm not sure if this is entirely accurate but it does seem to have worked.

 

The fixation is also different to reactivity to other barking dogs, which I'm till working on. There, reaction also = work, relaxation means we can continue with our walk and a treat. This is where 'watch me' works. So lots of circles and changes of direction, abrupt stops, anything to focus the attention back on me and make it clear that I'm in charge and in control of the situation. It's working well with PK and starting to work with Brandi too.

 

This was very informative. Thank you.

[Brandiandwe]

Your welcome. I'd be interested to know what more experienced owners think as well. This is just based on my own experiences of both high level fixation (does yours foam at the mouth as well? Always a special moment!) and reactivity, but I can tell you that it has gotten better for me. I did have to treat the two issues separately, and I have two greys both of which are reactive, but they are both improving. As I also said up thread, obedience classes have helped.

[Guest amazing_gracie]

Your welcome. I'd be interested to know what more experienced owners think as well. This is just based on my own experiences of both high level fixation (does yours foam at the mouth as well? Always a special moment!) and reactivity, but I can tell you that it has gotten better for me. I did have to treat the two issues separately, and I have two greys both of which are reactive, but they are both improving. As I also said up thread, obedience classes have helped.

 

I'm shopping around for obedience classes. We're on a budget right now. But I definitely want to try for it.

 

Gracie doesn't actually foam at the mouth, but she sounds like she does. Her bark at those times is strangled (because she's choking herself when she lunges) and quite ferocious - like she's going to rip out the other dog's throat! If I didn't know her so well, it would frighten me.

 

Yesterday was strange. We encountered a cat on our morning walk. We see him pretty often and Gracie barks at him and lunges, but not as severely as at small dogs. We both saw him at the same time. As soon as her ears pricked up in interest, I got her attention and gave her a treat. Of course she wanted to go back to the cat. I kept asking for her attention and walking her in a tight circle until she lost interest and began sniffing elsewhere. We were able to walk past the cat without an incident. I was very proud of Gracie!

 

In the afternoon we went to the park and we encountered a large black dog who was about the same size as Gracie. As soon as we saw them, I began the "look at me" routine with Gracie. Despite this, while they were still some distance away, Gracie began furiously barking at her. I verbally corrected Gracie and kept walking. The other dog was on a flexi-leash and the owner didn't seem very concerned. They met us again a few minutes later, and this time Gracie reacted very playfully, tail wagging and "let's play!" written all over her. THIS is her usual reaction to dogs her own size. The owner of the other dog encouraged the dogs to greet each other. Gracie politely went in to sniff the other dog's rear and got growled and snapped at! She jumped back, surprised, and began barking again. Needless to say, I made sure we walked in the opposite direction and stayed away from them for the rest of our time at the park.

 

Any idea why that all went down the way it did?

Edited February 29, 2012 by amazing_gracie

[Feisty49]

I don't have this issue with Annie Bella - that is lunging and barking -- but if she sees a small dog, or any dog, she does perk up and wants to play. Unless I know the dog/owner, I take steps to control Annie Bella by immediately tightening up her leash in my hand so there is no slack and no excess for her to twirl around and I keep walking and say, "Come now." (Our phrase) With the leash tight in my hand and her neck next to my thigh, she pretty much has no choice but to keep walking with me. Taking away the slack in the leash eliminates the ability to jump and twirl.

[Guest capers7]

To me, this sounds like a prey drive thing and not an aggression thing. Although the training is similar, the causes are different. I was told that I needed to be careful of what and when I treated post-fixation. If you do it after she's fixated, then she's taught that fixation and then looking at you means a treat = fixation is acceptable. So you need to get attention back on you, get her to work a bit (I find walking in tight circles rather than sitting, but sitting would also work), hound relaxes then treat, because this teaches her that fixation = hard work but relaxation and ignoring small fluffies = treat. I'm not sure if this is entirely accurate but it does seem to have worked.

 

The fixation is also different to reactivity to other barking dogs, which I'm till working on. There, reaction also = work, relaxation means we can continue with our walk and a treat. This is where 'watch me' works. So lots of circles and changes of direction, abrupt stops, anything to focus the attention back on me and make it clear that I'm in charge and in control of the situation. It's working well with PK and starting to work with Brandi too.

This is a great example of understanding a sight hound! It is so hard to grasp how they think and then how to respond in their language so they "get it". We have to understand them first. Pulling and yelling when they are in prey drive does not seem to register with them at all. Finding the key to breaking that prey drive fixation or stopping it before it starts will be the major issue. I wish I had some answers, I am just learning all this myself. I do know how frustrating it can be, but keep at it, keep asking questions, and best of luck to you!

[Brandiandwe]

 

 

I'm shopping around for obedience classes. We're on a budget right now. But I definitely want to try for it.

 

Gracie doesn't actually foam at the mouth, but she sounds like she does. Her bark at those times is strangled (because she's choking herself when she lunges) and quite ferocious - like she's going to rip out the other dog's throat! If I didn't know her so well, it would frighten me.

 

Yesterday was strange. We encountered a cat on our morning walk. We see him pretty often and Gracie barks at him and lunges, but not as severely as at small dogs. We both saw him at the same time. As soon as her ears pricked up in interest, I got her attention and gave her a treat. Of course she wanted to go back to the cat. I kept asking for her attention and walking her in a tight circle until she lost interest and began sniffing elsewhere. We were able to walk past the cat without an incident. I was very proud of Gracie!

 

In the afternoon we went to the park and we encountered a large black dog who was about the same size as Gracie. As soon as we saw them, I began the "look at me" routine with Gracie. Despite this, while they were still some distance away, Gracie began furiously barking at her. I verbally corrected Gracie and kept walking. The other dog was on a flexi-leash and the owner didn't seem very concerned. They met us again a few minutes later, and this time Gracie reacted very playfully, tail wagging and "let's play!" written all over her. THIS is her usual reaction to dogs her own size. The owner of the other dog encouraged the dogs to greet each other. Gracie politely went in to sniff the other dog's rear and got growled and snapped at! She jumped back, surprised, and began barking again. Needless to say, I made sure we walked in the opposite direction and stayed away from them for the rest of our time at the park.

 

Any idea why that all went down the way it did?

 

We're lucky. Our local dog club has a reasonable joining fee then it's $2 ground fee per dog each day. I think that's reasonable. Given all we do there is hang out with other dogs and work on prey drive and reactivity, I think we do OK. Sitting isn't really PKs thing - we ain't gonna win any awards there!!!

 

Interesting about the barking. PK doesn't usually bark when she's fixated. Instead, there's staring fixedly, tension throughout the body followed by shaking, foaming at the mouth then a high pitched whine. She would have the throat out in a hearbeat in that state. The barking happens when she isn't fixated but she is reacting to the other dog, whether because it's barking or bouncing around or it wants to play, looks threatening or is otherwise non-greyhound.

 

Well done with the cat! For the other, I guess you can't control everything and do need to keep on experimenting. I know my dogs continue to react to dogs which have reacted to them in the past. So even if the others dogs now go past quietly, my girls remember them and give them a darn good barking, much to my frustration. Lots of circles, changes of direction and working on relaxation. But you can't control everything either. There is no textbook to how each walk will go and how each dog will react to the other.

 

I don't have this issue with Annie Bella - that is lunging and barking -- but if she sees a small dog, or any dog, she does perk up and wants to play. Unless I know the dog/owner, I take steps to control Annie Bella by immediately tightening up her leash in my hand so there is no slack and no excess for her to twirl around and I keep walking and say, "Come now." (Our phrase) With the leash tight in my hand and her neck next to my thigh, she pretty much has no choice but to keep walking with me. Taking away the slack in the leash eliminates the ability to jump and twirl.

 

I've found that sometimes tightening up increases the reactivity, but this isn't consistent. I wouldn't mind the desire to play so much. It's more the other desires which bother me.