Car Anxiety, Fearful, Frustrating, Early Onset Dementia?

[CaliforniaGreys]

what is your question?

Seems pretty simple to me. You don't like this dog and apparently the feeling is mutual. If you want to know what others think you should do.....my vote would be to give him up in the hopes that he will find someone that will love him and understand him in all the ways that you do not.

 

[TheFullHouse]

Believe me, my husband pointed out the obvious tone of my first post. You can tell I was definitely venting. I even felt better after writing it. I sounded like a heartless monster. But I know you can all relate.

 

I've made a list of all the medical options and will be asking my vet to consider these suggestions. Thanks for those. Man, I'll be sooo sad if all he needs is thyroid adjustments. Especially after days & hours of researching on here and drawing the conclusion not to pursue meds for his thyroid.

 

His physical is tomorrow morning.

 

My husband pointed out that he has a different walking style than I do when he has to walk the pups without me. I walk them alone most of the time. So we walked together this morning and he had them both to show me what he does. He just goes. He stopped four times, that was it. Unlike me, who lets them stop and smell probably 3-4 times as much.

 

Needless to say, the walk wasn't any fun, but we got our business done. With this being said, Coen still pulled. But not as badly. I think he was just having a better day cuz he knows I've been talking about him a lot

 

After the test results come back we'll consider doing behavior modifcation with him again. He may just need so one-on-one time with us, even though he gets it everyday since I work from home.

 

Thanks again for all the insight. Very much appreciated!

 

 

Your second and third post sound a lot better. Having his thyroid tested can't hurt and it might help. As far as walking, try a 4 ft. leash, keep him close to you and not let him have the lead. Maybe a refresher course in obedience will help.

[greyhead]

After seeing MSU's interpretation of Dee's (Energy 11) dog Goldie's thyroid hormone numbers, I will never have confidence in MSU's interpretations. Jean Dodds seems more reasonable to me. But it also seems to me that if the tests are done properly, any owner and vet armed with greyhound norms should be able to evaluate the test numbers with the dog's behaviors/symptoms and come to a reasonable decision about whether or not to try thyroid hormones. My family is doing just that currently, as we're having a complete panel run for our oldest dog, who has been on Soloxine for six years but is 11 now and needs to be reevaluated in light of his behavior. If the results are equivocal or confusing, we'll send the numbers to Dr. Dodds for some help.

 

Your last posts have been encouraging to those of us worried by your first one! Best of luck sorting it all out.

Edited January 5, 2012 by greyhead

[Guest courser]

I would definitely have a full checkup done on him like others have suggested. Even dogs with medical problems can be asked to behave appropriately and shouldn't be allowed to do things that frustrate you, though. I was Coen's foster home and like you said he wasn't like this to begin with, other than pulling some on leash and marking. I remember bringing quite a few dogs to your house and it took you a long time and several visits to pick the right one - a happy, goofy, friendly guy called Robert. He wasn't a spook or even a very nervous guy. He was a confident, outgoing guy, the type that would want to lead a walk if allowed and mark all "his territory". I remember him going around marking your yard and I think you had some marking at first in the house you called me for help with. He was able to learn not to mark in my house and yours so he is definitely capable of learning.

 

He came from JCKC which is one of the poorer tracks, but that doesn't mean he was abused. He seemed like a very happy, social guy that loved people when I had him as a foster. I think that was why you picked him out of all the greyhounds I brought to your house - because he liked you and interacted the most with you and was the most social.

 

Of course our group will take him back if you need us to but it seems most of the problems are based on just one thing that is fixable. I hear a lot of frustration with his behavior and excusing his behavior - because of what may have happened to him before you got him, because of fostering a dog once a year or two ago, because of your husband being out of the country, etc. From your comments, I hear your frustration with a dog that is making the rules and doing what he wants to and your lack of knowledge on how to fix him. You just need to learn how to train a dog, and I don't mean just training a dog to do tricks - most people can do that.

 

By excusing behavior instead of changing behavior Coen does more and more things that you don't like. You get more and more frustrated by him. He senses your frustration and avoids you because you aren't fun to be around anymore. If he wouldn't come in the house because a foster was there, for example, and you allow that and even reward it by feeding him all his meals in the yard, a behavior was created. You gave him control of the situation instead of you disagreeing with the behavior and telling him what you wanted instead. Even if you didn't want to use physical force to make him come inside, he would have come in eventually when he got hungry enough. Instead he learned that he didn't have to do what you said and if he was stubborn and held out long enough you would even throw a picnic for him. Dogs should come in and go out when you tell them to. That is very teachable, just like walking on leash. The problem isn't the dog's ability to learn, we know he can learn because he has learned new bad behaviors. It is only you learning how to communicate, teach and motivate effectively.

 

The other problem I see which kind of falls under the same heading - lack of knowledge is a pretty common mistake most owners make. If you have a dog that over reacts to things it is easy to react yourself because you are worried about the dog. It becomes a downward spiral - the dog gets nervous or excited about something, you start to anticipate that and get nervous or stressed because you know something stressful is about to happen to the dog. The dog reads your stress and thinks things may be worse than he thought because mom is worried too. The most caring owners are the ones that tend to accidentally reward a behavior they don't want. How many of us have petted an anxious dog and told him he is a "good dog"? Petting and talking to a dog that is nervous or excited to "calm it down" only rewards the fearful behavior and makes it worse. This can cause dogs that have issues with travel or loud noises to get worse quickly.

 

You said things were great and you bonded with him when you took him to obedience class early on. That is because you were learning to control his behavior and he was learning to look to you for direction. Those things are the basics of all obedience classes and are the things that make a dog easy to live with and fun to be around. That is what is missing from your relationship now.

 

I love doing obedience with my dogs. I started out with my first greyhound because I was in a situation like yours and had to learn how to overcome his behavior issues. We did basic obedience and went on through all the levels that trainer offered. From there we went on to competition Rally and then on to competition obedience classes when we had all the Rally titles. We ended up taking classes off and on his entire life. It was the best thing I ever did. I thought I was bonded to my dog before, but when your dog is so in tune to you that he reads tiny, nearly imperceptible cues, your relationship is at a whole new level. In obedience training you learn how to become the most amazing, fun thing in your dog's life. You learn how to make the dog WANT to work with you and ignore all distractions. This is something that everyone can learn and it doesn't matter how smart, dumb or stubborn your dog is. Once you learn how to become amazing in your dog's eyes everything changes.

 

That is what you want from Coen, it is what everyone wants. It happened once before when you took him to obedience so it can happen again. Obedience classes aren't just about training a dog to sit, down and stay. My greyhounds knew those things before we went to the first obedience class. Obedience classes are more about teaching the human than the dog. You learn what motivates each dog - food, toys, affection or play and use those things to get the behaviors you want. You learn how to communicate with your dog and let him know what you want and don't want. You learn how to stay calm and eliminate frustration. Frustration sabotages training - you can't train if you are frustrated or angry. Training has to be fun for both of you.

 

At this point Coen either doesn't know what you want or doesn't care. Those are just based on lack of knowledge about dog training and not about him being stubborn or stupid. Stubborn, dumb dogs are much easier to train than smart, stubborn dogs. You obviously know how to motivate your other greyhound because she does want to please you and wants to be around you. Different dogs are motivated by different things though. You just need to learn what it takes to get the same response from Coen. A greyhound is low energy and lazy so is harder to motivate than a breed bred for working with endless energy. That doesn't mean they are dumber, it just means you have to be more fun and more interesting to engage them and give them a reason to get up off the couch.

 

I know you and know you are a good owner. If anything you have probably loved Coen too much, and allowed him to do things that annoyed you because you thought they made him happy. Because you loved him, you worried about him and stressed over new behaviors trying to find a reason for it instead of telling him to "stop it". It sounds like he has gradually become the leader and set his own rules. Leaders have more stress and have to vigilant and take care of the rest of the pack. If you are the leader that stress is lifted off of him and he is free to relax and will probably have fewer anxieties.

 

I have a great motivational, positive trainer that I work with in our area, if you are still in Greenville, SC. She has sighthound obedience and agility classes going on now. Either would work for you because you learn to motivate the dog in both. We have a great time and the dogs love it. The classes are pay as you go $15 a class so there is no huge investment up front. If you do both classes the second class price is reduced. Call me about them or if you just want to talk 423-1933.

[GeorgeofNE]

This is perhaps the saddest post I've seen on GT.

 

The negativity directed at a companion animal after three years--

 

Really breaks my heart and I wish I could take him off your hands myself.

[sweetdogs]

This is perhaps the saddest post I've seen on GT.

 

The negativity directed at a companion animal after three years--

 

Really breaks my heart and I wish I could take him off your hands myself.

 

Me too. Doesn't empathy exist anymore? That's why I'm delighted to see the thread in EEG - "How does your pup show happiness".

[robinw]

I know how frustrating it can be to deal with a dog that doesn't meet expectations in one way or another. I can understand how necessary it is to rant sometimes. I just never had the courage to do it on Gt

[Guest Energy11]

My five DRIVE ME TOTALLY CRAZY!!!!

 

Each one has his/her own quirks, and Oakly, is well ... Oakly! He makes a lab puppy look like it is in a coma! ) He barks, jumps up and down, nips my butt if I ignore him, and the list goes on!

 

I guess I adopted all of mine, BECAUSE they had quirks, and I knew not many people could have handled them. Curfew was MAJOR spook. Goldie peed in the house and stole things. Cari is still Cari ... fincky and loves DH/dislikes me. Staggerlee? NOTHING weird, quirkly or wrong with him. Everyone wanted to adopt that boy. He was my foster, and I adopted him

 

All of these dogs have their quirks. ALL breeds do. Loving another living thing, whether it is a dog, cat, human, bird, etc., takes patience.

 

I hope, once Coen gets checked out medically, things will work out for the dog and owner. IF NOT, then, I do agree with the others ... time to re-home him. I, too, would take him, just the way he is described

[Batmom]

After seeing MSU's interpretation of Dee's (Energy 11) dog Goldie's thyroid hormone numbers, I will never have confidence in MSU's interpretations. Jean Dodds seems more reasonable to me. B

 

And I feel exactly the opposite. I would never use Dr. Dodds diagnostic services nor recommend them.

Edited January 5, 2012 by Batmom

[Guest greys4ever]

Sounds like you are very frustrated, not a good place to be in. If he is such a bad walker, don't walk him. Dragging him does nothing good and only causes fear in him to you. these dogs are highly sensitive and remember/register every tone in your voice and action you have. You absolutely need help as this isn't the way it is supposed to be!!

 

If it can't be worked out for you and your dog, work on finding a home that will work for him. he probably isn't having a good time either.

[Guest sheila]

Believe me, my husband pointed out the obvious tone of my first post. You can tell I was definitely venting. I even felt better after writing it. I sounded like a heartless monster. But I know you can all relate.

 

I've made a list of all the medical options and will be asking my vet to consider these suggestions. Thanks for those. Man, I'll be sooo sad if all he needs is thyroid adjustments. Especially after days & hours of researching on here and drawing the conclusion not to pursue meds for his thyroid.

 

His physical is tomorrow morning.

 

My husband pointed out that he has a different walking style than I do when he has to walk the pups without me. I walk them alone most of the time. So we walked together this morning and he had them both to show me what he does. He just goes. He stopped four times, that was it. Unlike me, who lets them stop and smell probably 3-4 times as much.

 

Needless to say, the walk wasn't any fun, but we got our business done. With this being said, Coen still pulled. But not as badly. I think he was just having a better day cuz he knows I've been talking about him a lot

 

After the test results come back we'll consider doing behavior modifcation with him again. He may just need so one-on-one time with us, even though he gets it everyday since I work from home.

 

Thanks again for all the insight. Very much appreciated!

 

I'm glad to read this! My original post on this topic was based solely on your original rant. After reading your subsequent posts I can be more understanding about your frustration. It is heartening to know that you are taking notes and are willing to work with Coen.

[Guest SaddleWags]

Wew doggies, I really ruffled some feathers. You guys totally have the right to turn me inside out. In despite of all the lashings I got what I was looking for - honest and clear opinion. Thanks to everyone, and thanks again Joanne. So sorry I came across so harshly in the beginning. I know you've all been there, I'm just the one with the big mouth!

 

We are looking forward to some Coen and me time at obedience/agility class.

[gazehund]

The written word is extremely difficult to interpret. Especially when the dog and the human are unknown.

Glad to hear you are going to be working with your dog and see where that takes you. Best of luck and please let us know how you make out. A journey such as yours is invaluable toward educating others who may find themselves where you are right now.

[tbhounds]

After seeing MSU's interpretation of Dee's (Energy 11) dog Goldie's thyroid hormone numbers, I will never have confidence in MSU's interpretations. Jean Dodds seems more reasonable to me. B

 

And I feel exactly the opposite. I would never use Dr. Dodds diagnostic services nor recommend them.

Me too

[sweetdogs]

I know you've all been there,

 

"For a dog that sleeps most of the day there are too many behavioral issues. I can't believe I'm admitting this - we have even told him to pack his bags, it is time to go. There's just no connection and we've had him for 3 years now. Very little personality, very little intelligence, very little (no) interest in closeness or playing. We love him (because he is dependent on us) and truly believe we are doing what's best, but his oddities seem to be increasing. He's still so young - turning 7 in a few months. He's just a walking contradiction. Experience shows he's only getting more obstinate. "

I don't think I've been there. Good luck to Coen.

[Guest Giselle]

You just need to learn how to train a dog, and I don't mean just training a dog to do tricks - most people can do that.

Exactly my thoughts, as well. All of the behaviors that you described don't sound abnormal at all. They sound very typical of a dog who's never been trained to do or be anything other than a regular greyhound - which is to pull when they walk, to be sedate, to enjoy their home, to occasionally be fearful or mildly stressed in novel situations.

 

If the medical tests come out normal, then these are behavioral issues, and it seems like you haven't done any training at all to fix them. FYI, these are all very easy issues to fix IF you are competent with your technique. However, since it sounds like your family and your pup have a lot of miscommunication going on, I highly recommend seeking the advice of someone whose focus is NOT basic obedience, but rather handler-dog communication. It's not just about "Sit", "Stay", "Down", "Come". It is about your timing, setting the appropriate criteria, using the correct rate of reinforcement, utilizing appropriate motivation, and shaping complex behaviors. Find a trainer who understands these subtle nuances and who can teach them to you.

 

In short, your problems are pretty simple:

1) Car anxiety? Solution: Desensitize/Counter-condition (DS/CC)

2) Pulling on leash? Solution: Teach your dog to walk at a heel OR a loose leash (I prefer a strict heel, but that's because I think it looks more polished and professional. It does mean, however, that you will need to 'release' your dog from the heel to go sniff and go potty)

3) Fearful of novel places? Solution: Re-socialize your dog. Socialization does not end at puppyhood, and, let's face it, racing greyhounds have a unique upbringing that can sometimes conflict with the needs of a more urban lifestyle. So, all you have to do is take two steps back and re-socialize your dog to new places and people as if he were a puppy.

4) Fearful of new noises? Solution: Again, re-socialize to novel noises.

 

I'm glad you got to vent, but, aside from the medical tests, it's also time to start thinking about real solutions

Edited January 6, 2012 by Giselle

[Guest 4dogscrazy]

I am not sure where self education / research into greyhound behavior has gone but it quite clearly has run off the rails more than a few times lately on GT. Had you done any research on greyhounds you would know that what you perceive as "very little personality", "very little intelligence" and "very little interest in closeness" are common sight hound traits. Obstinate? Can't say that I blame him but I doubt he is being "obstinate" on purpose. Fearful? Anxious? Miserably unhappy with people who don't understand him and don't care to?

Yeah, now we're talking. If you are looking for a group of strangers to validate your desire to return this dog

(even though you "love" him.) By all means. Sooner rather than later. Like 2 years ago sooner. Since you are so giving, please do this dog a favor and give him up to the adoption agency. Tomorrow. I assure you he is getting absolutely nothing from you either.

I second this.

[seeh2o]

After seeing MSU's interpretation of Dee's (Energy 11) dog Goldie's thyroid hormone numbers, I will never have confidence in MSU's interpretations. Jean Dodds seems more reasonable to me. B

 

And I feel exactly the opposite. I would never use Dr. Dodds diagnostic services nor recommend them.

Me too

And I am in 100% agreement with Greyhead, I thought MSU's interpretation was chilling, particularly in light of how well Goldie responded to the thyroid treatment.

 

I guess it's a good thing we don't all agree, either MSU or Dodds would be out of business.

[Batmom]

I thought MSU's interpretation was chilling, particularly in light of how well Goldie responded to the thyroid treatment.

 

That's an odd example. The dog referenced was on many drugs all at once, including prednisone, phenobarbitol, valium, aspirin, pepcid, cephalexin, and tramadol. Owner noted at the time that the bad nights started after phenobarbitol was given. Owner also noted at the time that the prednisone and phenobarbitol weren't discontinued until just before starting thyroid supplementation. So it seems hard to say what exactly caused the dog to improve. In addition, the dog still requires valium to calm down at night. An interesting case, to be sure.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Batmom

[Guest PhillyPups]

Saddlewags,

 

In reading your second post, it sounds to me like Coen has your number.

 

Your husband takes him for no-nonsense walks, and Coen knows that. I agree that training would be helpful, both for the bonding time for you and Coen and also to reinforce what you learned in training classes before.

 

Good luck, and it is good that you are willing to work it out.

 

Please answer this honestly as it is in the back of my mind. Do you really feel no connection with him, or was that stated in frustrated venting? I cannot imagine not having a connection with any greyhound I have met yet, and I have met a lot of greyhounds.

[seeh2o]

I thought MSU's interpretation was chilling, particularly in light of how well Goldie responded to the thyroid treatment.

 

That's an odd example. The dog referenced was on many drugs all at once, including prednisone, phenobarbitol, valium, aspirin, pepcid, cephalexin, and tramadol. Owner noted at the time that the bad nights started after phenobarbitol was given. Owner also noted at the time that the prednisone and phenobarbitol weren't discontinued until just before starting thyroid supplementation. So it seems hard to say what exactly caused the dog to improve. In addition, the dog still requires valium to calm down at night. An interesting case, to be sure.

If it is unclear to you, why don't you ask Dee directly? As Dee stated very clearly in her post here and in the original thread about Goldie months ago, it was thought that she was in such bad shape she may have be put to sleep in a short time period. After consulting with Dodds, she and her vet agreed to try her on Soloxine rather than go along with MSU's suggestion and that's when things turned around for Goldie. Is Goldie 100% better. No, but is she workable, clearly Dee thinks so.

 

I simply don't understand your intolerance/disrespect of opinions on this that differ from yours. You and others here don't like Dodds, I and others here do. You and others here strongly believe in MSU, others here and I don't. We obviously have had different experiences, therefore different opinions. You are clearly a bright, knowledgeable and well respected person and contribute immensely to the GT community, why you cannot seem to respect others differing opinions, based on personal experience, escapes me.

Edited January 6, 2012 by seeh2o

[JJNg]

I don't see any disrespect in Batmom's post. Since Goldie's case is being used as proof that Dr. Dodd's thyroid interpretations are better than MSU's, I think it's valid to look at her case more closely. I'm not familiar with Goldie's case, but if she really was on a number of other medications, and there were other changes made around the same time she was started on Soloxine, then that puts into question which of the changes really caused her remarkable turn-around.

[seeh2o]

I don't see any disrespect in Batmom's post. Since Goldie's case is being used as proof that Dr. Dodd's thyroid interpretations are better than MSU's, I think it's valid to look at her case more closely. I'm not familiar with Goldie's case, but if she really was on a number of other medications, and there were other changes made around the same time she was started on Soloxine, then that puts into question which of the changes really caused her remarkable turn-around.

There is a long history here (Dodds interpretation vs MSUs interpretation) that you probably haven't been exposed to, it includes one of my dogs who's only real symptom was an out of the norm, but not unheard of, low-thyroid symptom. If we had gone with the MSU standard, he would probably be blind now. My frustration with it was peaked and resurrected when I read the earlier response (post #34) making a dig at Dodds. I tried to respond respectfully by acknowledging that we have difference of opinion and attempting to make light of it by saying the differing opinions are good for both Dodds and MSU, otherwise one of them would be out of business if we all believed the same thing (post #43). I was ready for the hijacked to end there, but it didn't. Time for all of us to stick a fork in it as it is DONE.

Edited January 6, 2012 by seeh2o

[Batmom]

Per the original posts about Goldie, her main problem was restlessness at night despite taking valium. Per a recent post, she is still restless at night -- her nights are referred to as a "nightmare," and she is still taking valium but it is no longer working. So it appears that thyroid supplementation didn't address that problem.

 

I don't see how noting that I wouldn't use or recommend Dr. Dodds' services is making a dig. It's a simple statement of fact.

 

I prefer to use a lab that offers the reference method for testing and that offers interpretation by board certified endocrinologists who publish their research in science-based, peer-reviewed journals.

Edited January 6, 2012 by Batmom

[Guest greytkidsmom]

It sounds like you have gotten plenty of feedback on addressing behavior modifications but I wanted to share our experiences with travel anxiety.

 

Riding in the car is something we have always had to fight with one of our dogs.

- He was anxious in the car from the day we picked him up from his foster home.

- We tried deconditioning - getting into/out of the car, rides around the block, rides to the store, etc.

- We tried herbal supplements - ginger for nausea, rescue remedy, happy traveler, and many others.

- He completely freaked out during our move from FL to VA and I had to stop at an e-vet who gave him ACE (not the right drug in a GH but I didn't know at the time and I was very scared and emotional). Of course, the ACE didn't work.

- Xanax given about 1 hour before travel helped. We have recently changed to trazodone which I think works a little better.

 

- When he rides in the car he is either crated or in the back behind a barrier - it gives him his own space where he doesn't bother the driver or the other dogs in the car. With xanax or trazodone and lots of comfy blankets to nest in he will lay down. He never sleeps but he is as comfortable as I can make him. Travel is a necessity sometimes and he always seems happy when we get to our destination. It is quite the production for us to travel - the crate takes up a lot of real estate in the car. It isn't easy to pack the car to fit our luggage, the dogs' supplies, the kennel, and 2 other dogs but he is worth the trouble.

 

All that to say that you might not be able to fix the travel anxiety but there are ways to make him (and you) safe.

 

Good luck to you.