Dogs Being "pack" Animals

[Guest PhillyPups]

I think we are more aware of it, as greyhounds are raised in packs, the litter stays together through training, then go to the track where they live in the kennel dorm with other greyhounds 24/7, it is not at all like bringing in an 8 week old puppy as an only pet and raising it with only humans. In home life, I was always under the teaching, 2's a pair, 3 or more is a pack.

 

Melony told me of an interesting lesson with DonJuan. She had his litter in her racing kennel. She always thought DonJuan was the "badboy" of the litter (he would never back down even in retirement). One day she saw exactly what would happen. The one brother would start crap he could not finish, the 2 brothers, Carl and DonJuan would go to help him, the other brother would go elsewhere in the turnout pen. By the time she got out to stop their crap, Carl was smart enough to have left the situation, and DonJuan was so intense he was still into it. They were always together and were a pack in the pack.

 

When DonJuan joined us at 11, he was older and frail. He was the grumpy old man, which was his defense walking into an established pack. The grumbling lasted about a month until he was accepted as a part of it. The only one that did not back down to him was AnnaBanana, they were on their hindlegs and not dancing, I did my job and neither was injured and it never happened again.

[christinepi]

I heard with there own breed they can form a pack, but as for a house full of mixed breeds I also read that they do not have the pack idea. I also read a lot about the whole pack idea and with domestic dogs it's been so far bred out that's its very rare. I although could see it with the same breed dogs in a house.

 

To say "with domestic dogs it's been so far bred out" contradicts that same breed dog groups might form a pack. If it's been bred out, it would apply to all dogs, regardless.

 

I wonder whether you're referring to wild wolf pack dynamic vs dog pack dynamic, in the sense of how those two species organize their respective social structures. From what I understand, those are indeed two very different things.

 

I also wonder: pack mentality isn't just limited to hunting down the injured or weaker ones. It defines a dog's whole outlook on life and happiness, and constantly influences what the dog's doing, not just when it comes to what to do when hearing a distress call. That's why it would be interesting to hear from you again in more detail what exactly you're asking.

Edited January 1, 2012 by christinepi

[Hubcitypam]

I heard with there own breed they can form a pack, but as for a house full of mixed breeds I also read that they do not have the pack idea. I also read a lot about the whole pack idea and with domestic dogs it's been so far bred out that's its very rare. I although could see it with the same breed dogs in a house.

Reading can be quite different from personal experience.

 

Quite a few years ago Poodle, Buck and I were at the dog park. Buck was doing his sniffing around the fence routine and Poodle and I walked over to talk to a "regular" we knew that had an NGA greyhound and an Inca Orchid. The "regulars" were sitting in plastic chairs in a big circle - maybe 12 of them. The woman and I were chatting and Poodle was sitting at my feet. Out of the blue a cattle dog rushed him and upended him. She and four or five dogs of various breeds (I remember the scottie and the Jack Russell but there were another couple of dogs that weren't terriers) proceeded to pack on him.

 

I tried to pick his screaming self up by his collar and it slipped off. They were doing their best to disembowel him. I remembered reading somewhere to fall on them to protect them and I did. He bit me twice in the face in his terror, once all the way through my lip and I was bitten twice by the other dogs but didn't know which ones.

 

Those dogs were all different breeds and didn't live in the same house, but they went there every day with their owners who sat in that circle and it became "their" territory. Poodle and I unknowingly infringed on it and the pack went to work.

[silverfish]

 

From what I've read, mostly in John Bradshaw's book "Dog Sense", there is a considerable distinction to be made between a domesticated dog pack and a WILD wolf pack in the sense of what purpose it serves and how it's structured. This may not be what you're asking; just a thought.

 

 

True.

 

 

uh. yeah. they most definitely are pack animals - their desire to be bond to a pack is critical to their domestication and all the things we ask/expect of them.

 

True.

 

HOWEVER, a domesticated dog is NOT a wolf...and a dog pack is not a replica of a wolf pack. The wolves that allowed themselves to be domesticated were quite different than their wolf brethren that didn't. The modern dog is sorta like a wolf trapped in a juvenile stage of development. There are definitely similarities between wild wolves/wild dogs and domesticated dogs...but, they aren't a one-to-one translation.

 

Absolutely true.

 

 

 

I heard with there own breed they can form a pack, but as for a house full of mixed breeds I also read that they do not have the pack idea. I also read a lot about the whole pack idea and with domestic dogs it's been so far bred out that's its very rare. I although could see it with the same breed dogs in a house.

 

Lots of things have been bred out of - and into - our beloved domestic 'pets' but the pack mentality isn't really one of them. It's evolved and adapted, that's all. If you don't watch carefully (and the majority of pet owners don't) then it can be easy to miss if your dogs are well-behaved, but it's there. Ignore it at your peril!

 

 

 

 

Greyhounds have been bred for thousands of years to chase and hunt mostly as a pack so they will understand the idea of pack dynamics and living with it.

 

Well, not so much as a pack in recent (hundreds of) years. It has long been more common to hunt them in pairs. If you want to see a dog pack in action, you should see a pack of beagles or staghounds out hunting. It's so very much of a pack it's scary. They are single-minded, have no time for outsiders, even when just standing around waiting, and they are like a single organism with one brain. To compare the hunting pack with a pair of domestic dogs curled up on the sofa is ... mind boggling.

 

In a sense you are right, Ashphobiax, in that some breeds hardly show their 'pack instinct' in a domestic setting. Greyhounds are one of the big exceptions because from their birth to the point of adoption they live, breathe, eat, sleep, play and work as a pack. They are never alone (a basic reason for separation anxiety, by the way) and the pack 'mentality' is strong. Most other breeds are taken from their mothers so young that they never experience living in a real dog pack.

 

However, any breed can and will show pack dynamics in certain circumstances. IMHO, it's the reason for a lot of bad behaviour among pet dogs, particularly breeds which are bred as lap dogs for single dog homes. The owner simply does not take charge, but instead acts like an overgrown puppy, cooing over the dog, petting & grooming him, feeding him tit-bits all day, generally acting like a servant to their dog, protecting him from the world, and - far from actually training their little guy - allow him to do pretty much what the heck he likes. No wonder if they end up a 'handful'. Some are little Napoleons, thinking the whole world is their pack and trying to put everyone in their place, and some are merely confused because they're not natural leaders. This CAN happen with greyhounds, by the way, just to be clear. You all know this is going to sound familiar to a lot of greyhound owners.

 

By the way; no reason why you shouldn't do most of those things with your dog as long as he's well-adjusted and you don't overfeed him a load of crap, but you also HAVE to be his leader, or you'll raise a monster.

[3vagreys]

Several times I've seen dogs that were either abandoned or born to abandoned dogs. They will form packs with other dogs and they are rarely all of the same breed. They travel together, find food together and they are very much a pack. I even saw one small pack with what looked a lot like a coyote in it. That pack was very wary of humans and I was a little nervous walking through a wooded area near them.

[Guest ashphobiax]

i am not trying to start a war i was just reading tons of articles about it, in the interest of my own dogs - i have one that was raised by humans and then i have another that was raised in a pack on the track i just think its a interesting concept and to see everyones ideas on it.

[Guest KennelMom]

Livestock guarding dogs/breeds are another example of humans manipulating the pack instinct of dogs.

[philospher77]

I will also throw this out there: if we accept that flocks are a lot like packs in many ways, what seems like "pack" behavior is really a lot of individuals acting in the same way. I'm sure you have all seen flocks of birds that turn and circle and wondered how they ever coordinate their maneuvers with such precision? Scientists wondered that too, and did a lot of modeling to try and find out. And the only model that gave the same results was each bird reacting individually to the given variables (wind speed and direction, I believe). If each bird decides to veer west by 5 degrees, the entire flock veers west.

 

Which is an important consideration. When those dogs packed up at the dog park, they weren't acting under the control of an "alpha". They hadn't spent a lot of time getting to know each other and establishing ranks and routines. They are, I am pretty sure, individual dogs acting in the same way at the same time.

 

The same is true about people in mobs, by the way. No one shouts out "we are all going to run towards the doors now" and has everyone agree to go with them... it's just one person makes a step forward, and then someone else does, and someone else doesn't want to get left behind, and suddenly everyone is moving (including people who swear that they would never act that way, because standing still at that point can be very dangerous in it's own way).

 

This is why mobs/packs/herds can be so difficult to stop when they are acting at an instinctive level. It's not enough to stop just one or two of the group and assume that the rest will follow along, you have to get the majority under control.

[Guest KennelMom]

Which is an important consideration. When those dogs packed up at the dog park, they weren't acting under the control of an "alpha". They hadn't spent a lot of time getting to know each other and establishing ranks and routines. They are, I am pretty sure, individual dogs acting in the same way at the same time.

 

 

That's a much better way of saying what I was trying to say yesterday Using the example of a group of dogs turning and attacking a wounded animal isn't necessarily indicative of their "pack nature." It's probably just dogs being dogs. With some breeds more inclined to that behavior than others.

 

Actual hunting as a pack (not just as a group of dogs chasing the same thing), as someone mentioned earlier, is pretty remarkable and indicative of the cooperative (pack) nature of dogs.

[Gryffenne]

1 grey & 2 huskies here.

 

Yes, they are most definitely a pack.

[Guest mirthlesstroll]

They most definitely pack up. I have a really old Greyhound, and have been under the pile a few times when she goes down. I wound up under the pile, shoving dogs frantically when a dog slipped in mud and went down screaming next to me at a fun run. He was too heavy for me to pick up, so I had to drop on him - if not for muzzles, we both would have been badly bitten.

[greysmom]

I would say that "pack mentality" has a large influence on all modern dogs' behavior. Even if domestic dogs aren't their wild wolf cousins, a pack mentality evolved to help smaller predators survive. Hunters who can work in concert have a better chance of bringing down larger prey and thus a better chance at survival. But it also impacts all areas of their lives - breeding, mobility and migration, social behavior, emotional well being. For a pack, it's more than "survival of the fittest." It's survival of *their* fittest - and a cooperative effort in every aspect.

 

If the newer information is correct, the wolves that became the domestic canine were the ones best adapted to including non-canines into their definition of a pack. They "understood" that they had a better chance at survival by living in cooperation with early humans - living off their garbage and gradually moving away from a "wild" existence and into a partnership. The offspring born to the wolves that hung around humans would be more likely to have this trait passed on from their parents and choose to stay in the vicinity of humans - adding them to the pack. The ones that didn't would drift back to the wild and their more natural pack environment.

 

I don't believe I've ever read anything that said man has bred out pack behavior from it's domestcated dogs. I also don't believe it's possible. Even toy breeds - which WERE bredby humans to specifically resemble baby animals, and to retain many young and adolescent characteristics - will pack up and bully or attack another dog. The behavior might not be as common, but it still exists as part of their genetic package of instincts. The biggest problem with toy breeds is that they are often quite under-socialized, and unfamiliar with "dog language." As someone said above - humans spoil them and coddle them and don't train them properly (if at all), and they become little brats - all because they didn't have an effective "pack" to teach them proper behavior. But it's not because they don't have a pack instinct.

 

I'd be interested to see some of the reading material mentioned by the OP, or anyone else, on this subject.

 

 

[silverfish]

 

 

I'd be interested to see some of the reading material mentioned by the OP, or anyone else, on this subject.

 

Stanley Corens books are very good starters on dog behaviour, instincts etc. One of the things he talks about is modern dogs and how they are, and are not, like wolves.

[Brandiandwe]

I know our two girls are part of a pack, and I've watched them, when running off lead, work as a pack when playing with other dogs. I'm very very cautious as a result of when and where we let our girls run (and am continually frustrated by other dog owners wanting to 'play' with ours - not a great option). Watching them communicate in terms of splitting up, herding other dogs, attempting to herd or corner birds, changes in direction and all the rest make me realise how thin the veneer of domestication really is. Even more interesting is how they respond on lead and at home, which is entirely different - much more responsive to me.

[Hubcitypam]

Which is an important consideration. When those dogs packed up at the dog park, they weren't acting under the control of an "alpha". They hadn't spent a lot of time getting to know each other and establishing ranks and routines. They are, I am pretty sure, individual dogs acting in the same way at the same time.

That may be right, but it is odd that the only dogs that attacked him all belonged to the "regulars" that sit in their lawn chairs in a circle for hours every day. Those dogs were around each other almost every day for months...maybe years.

 

Not one dog out of the many at the dog park joined in. That kind of seemed like a pack to me, but I'm probably wrong. After the fact when I went back to find the cattle dogs owner as she said she'd help with the vet bill as she admitted that her dog started it. The regulars said her dog ALWAYS started it. As far as I know she never went back to the park again, which is probably a good thing.

[philospher77]

Which is an important consideration. When those dogs packed up at the dog park, they weren't acting under the control of an "alpha". They hadn't spent a lot of time getting to know each other and establishing ranks and routines. They are, I am pretty sure, individual dogs acting in the same way at the same time.

That may be right, but it is odd that the only dogs that attacked him all belonged to the "regulars" that sit in their lawn chairs in a circle for hours every day. Those dogs were around each other almost every day for months...maybe years.

 

Not one dog out of the many at the dog park joined in. That kind of seemed like a pack to me, but I'm probably wrong. After the fact when I went back to find the cattle dogs owner as she said she'd help with the vet bill as she admitted that her dog started it. The regulars said her dog ALWAYS started it. As far as I know she never went back to the park again, which is probably a good thing.

 

O, I was remarking about my experience, not yours. Yours might have been a more established pack, but in my case, it was every dog in the park, some of whom were regulars, some were first-timers.

[JJNg]

Interesting discussion, and one that I want to share some thoughts on, but don't have time at the moment. So I just wanted to throw out a couple questions first...

 

1) How do you define "pack animal"?

 

2) Looking at all the reasons that have been given to support dogs being pack animals, and then considering philosopher77's comments about group behaviors, are humans also pack animals?

[silverfish]

Interesting discussion, and one that I want to share some thoughts on, but don't have time at the moment. So I just wanted to throw out a couple questions first...

 

1) How do you define "pack animal"?

 

2) Looking at all the reasons that have been given to support dogs being pack animals, and then considering philosopher77's comments about group behaviors, are humans also pack animals?

 

Hmm, interesting question. I suppose, in a way, we are. We (being anthropoids) are 'tribal'. Like a pack, a tribe has its leaders, its strong and its weak members, and those who care for the young. Tribe members look out for each other, but also argue among themselves. They cooperate in the getting of food and division of labour. However, tribes and packs have a lot of differences I think.

 

I don't really know enough about anthropology to give a very good answer, but I'm interested to hear from those who do!

 

With regard to differences and similarities between us and dogs, though, I'd say that we are similar enough that we can get along and share a home, but different enough for it to cause difficulties at times. It works because we can both compromise a bit and make the unit successful, but it does take compromise on both parts. But that's just stating the obvious, really ...

[RobinM]

ive been very interested in the whole idea of the pack idea but i was just wondering what everyone else thinks about the idea? i personally do not think they are.

 

do you think dogs are pack animals?

 

 

OY.

 

We have 6 greyhounds. We have a pack. We had a pack after we added number 3. We often socialize with a friend and her 5 hounds. They are almost an extended pack. We were with her when she adopted all but her first and vice versa,

 

 

She recently moved to a home with a full acre. The house behind her, although does not have any dogs, had 2 dogs visiting. We heard barking and looked to see what it was. Before we knew it, ALL Eleven dogs ran to the back fence in a fury. They were going nuts over these strange invaders. Molly, her smallest gh somehow got in the middle of the pack and within mili seconds the rage turned onto poor Molly. She fell which made for a good opportunity to really attack. I jumped in the middle and didn't care what the consequences were for me as long as Molly as OK. It was after I jumped in that everyone realized, "hey, what are we doing"?. In the meantime, the dogs on the other side of the fence were LONG gone, probably thinking to themselves. Jeeez- they are crazy....

 

In the end Molly was shaken up, I had a small but not worrisome bite and yes, everyone was muzzled. Once one dog takes off- it is safe to say that the rest of the pack will follow.

Edited January 2, 2012 by RobinM

[christinepi]

I came across this article by Jean Donaldson, whom I greatly respect. John Bradshaw in "Dog Sense" describes the same thing.

 

http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

 

To me, after reading this article, it seems there is a distinction to be made when asking "are dogs pack animals". And that is between the dogs' life style over time (which seems to be a lose, impermanent way to relate to other dogs) and short term, flare up type pack behavior that has been described by so many posters here (which seems to need a trigger, like a fallen, screaming dog, and then it's over within a short period of time). So, in other words, dogs aren't designed to live in a permanent, strictly hierarchical "pack", but they are hard wired to temporarily act as a "pack" when the right trigger hits.

 

I'm just going out on a limb here.

[Guest tore140]

I don't believe dog's judge each other by breed: they are all dogs- with body language and personal smells. If you've got more than one dog in a household, you've got yourself a pack- no matter the breed.

[tammystroops]

They sure are pack animals.

[greyhoundlov]

It happened with us when we had just one grey and a pug. For some reason, the grey (Gidge) did not like our friend's golden. We were all standing on the corner and Gidge suddenly went for Daisy's neck. Missy, the pug, went for Daisy's foot - that's all she could reach . Instant pack behavior.

 

Thank goodness Daisy had a thick coat so there was only saliva involved.

Edited January 2, 2012 by greyhoundlov

[philospher77]

I came across this article by Jean Donaldson, whom I greatly respect. John Bradshaw in "Dog Sense" describes the same thing.

 

http://www.jeandonaldson.com/jeans-blog-mainmenu-51/64-are-dogs-pack-animals

 

To me, after reading this article, it seems there is a distinction to be made when asking "are dogs pack animals". And that is between the dogs' life style over time (which seems to be a lose, impermanent way to relate to other dogs) and short term, flare up type pack behavior that has been described by so many posters here (which seems to need a trigger, like a fallen, screaming dog, and then it's over within a short period of time). So, in other words, dogs aren't designed to live in a permanent, strictly hierarchical "pack", but they are hard wired to temporarily act as a "pack" when the right trigger hits.

 

I'm just going out on a limb here.

 

Interesting article. I think the apparent fact that feral dogs are mostly scavengers would make being in a pack much less advantageous. One of the main reasons that wolves form packs is so that they can hunt cooperatively, while someone stays home and watches the pups. It lets them get more food than they would otherwise. On the other hand, it doesn't take a team to knock over a trashcan, and in that case, having extra pack members around would mean less food for you. So being an individualist, with temporary associations, would make sense.

[Jackandgrey]

Of course wolf packs are in truth units with all members related.In other words they are families. Somehow we don't like to apply that term to non humans. Generally they are parent wolves and junior offspring. So not like dog packs at all really. I think there are a variety of "pack" types from family units to a more casual group of unrelated animals of the same species. In one way or another though, dogs prefer to live in a multiunit group rather than by themselves.

 

 

I also think that when discussing pack theories, it is a more complex subject than simply a bunch of dogs turning on another dog.