What Now? Unexplained Diarrhea

[crazygang]

Hope Dorie gets well soon...glad the boys are ok now...

[BatterseaBrindl]

[greysmom]

We finally seem to be on the other side of this for Dorie too! Her #2 this afternoon was more normal than she's had for 10 days! She got nearly her normal dinner with I/D kibble and canned and she wolfed it right down! Two more days of metronidazole, and I'll keep her on the I/D at least until then before I think about transitioning to regular food.

 

Thanks everyone for thinking of Dorie!

[4My2Greys]

Sounds like things are heading in the right direction for sweet Dorie.

[greysmom]

Well, I think I jinxed her. She's back to being one sick greyhound. Up all night with fire-hose diarrhea. I think I'm going to take her to the evet/hospital this morning as she's just not getting better and needs some IV fluids and support.

 

I'm so sad for my girl! I just want her to get better!

[PrairieProf]

Oh shoot, I'm so sorry. I'll be checking for updates.

 

You mentioned something a while back about thinking Dorie's issue was pancreas-related ... have you actually tested her enzyme levels? Beth did turn out to have a problem with that (but got and has stayed better once she went to a low-fat, moderate-protein diet [the I/D, and care about anything else] and had a course of metronidazole, so that's different).

Edited September 1, 2011 by PrairieProf

[Guest driser]

I am now trying out Slippery Elm on my IBD grey.

 

Please let me know how Slippery Elm works for you. Our vet recommended it but we haven't tried it yet since there's been so many things changed/tried we just want to get some things consistent first...like food then start adding things in so we can actually see if they help or not.

[greysmom]

Well, I didn't end up taking Dorie to the evet. I really need to try and stay away from that place for my wallet's sake.

 

She isn't vomiting outright - more like what I call "water burps" (when they drink to much too fast and it comes back up) - and she is still drinking water. Her color is good, and she's still fairy well hydrated. The fire-hose diarrhea had mostly stopped by the time I called our regular vet and spoke with both Dr Bob. Upshot of everything is we are back on the fasting routine and taking a couple days break from the metronidazole (since it needs to be taken with food). Instead of sulcrafate, we're trying liquid Panacur, which I have to shoot down her throat for the next five days.

 

There were no parasites visible in the fecal float they ran last Saturday, but Dr Bob's thinking is that her sample was so watery and diffuse that something could still be there they couldn't see. Plus, the Panacur will coat her stomach as well as the sulcrafate and has the advantage of not being a pill. I got most of the first dose down her when I got home an she's finally sleeping.

[Charla]

Poor Dorie, I sure hope this works for both your sakes.

[PrairieProf]

How is Dorie doing this morning?

 

I've given Beth metronidazole while fasting -- I might give her a little dab of yogurt or something. My vet has never said not to do it and indeed always implied I should (he believes in fasting 24 hours from the last incidence of D). I think others have done it as well.

[4My2Greys]

I too have given metro when Nadir was not eating. The vet said it serves a double purpose in getting rid of the nasty little bugs and helping to ease inflammation of the intestinal lining.

I hope she is doing better today.

Just a suggestion, but when Nadir is having problems I don't give him any kibble. He does better if I bake some Tilapia and adding potatoes to make a stew for him.

[BatterseaBrindl]

looking for an update...

[greysmom]

We both got to sleep all night last night!!

 

She seems a bit brighter today, and was interested in the breakfast everybody else got to eat. Good for her, but it makes it hard to not give her anything! She was still having some diarrhea last night, so she is still not getting any food.

 

So here's a question: Which is *more* bland - cooked rive and boiled meat OR Science Diet I/D??? And *is* there a difference between the I/D kibble and the canned food?? When she was sick last week I was giving her rice/meat and when the vet did her fecal float he thought she'd gotten into birdseed because it was just going right through her without being digested at all. At least she likes the I/D food. Neither Copper or Dude really did at all. Copper did eat it, but Dude would just sniff it and walk away!

[PrairieProf]

I'm not sure there's some absolute "more bland" -- I/D has more ingredients, but it may be more digestible. And it has extra electrolytes, B vitamins, etc. specifically designed to replenish a dog who's been having diarrhea, so I personally think it's better; the meat and rice isn't complete nutrition. I do think the canned is easier to digest than the kibble, so I'd use just that to start with. Remember one whole can is only equivalent to one cup of kibble in calories though -- a can looks like a lot but because of the water content of canned food it's not.

[4My2Greys]

Chris reading back through your posts it seems Dorie's condition is getting worse after eating the

I/D. I would try something else. If your concerned about electrolytes you can give pedialyte. I think of bigger concern is getting her stomach settled so she can keep food down. When Nadir gets sick I can't fast him. It makes things worse. So I have to give him something easy on his system. Since he can't have rice I feed him Tilapia and potatoes. If it's real bad I just feed Tilapia.

[greysmom]

We will be fasting her or at least another day. She's still not interested in food at meal times (doesn't come into the kitchen when I'm fixing them at all, which she usually does), though she is wanting treats. She was still having diarrhea this afternoon, though it had weird looking things in it, so maybe she does have some sort of bug that the Panacur will take care of for us.

 

Judy, thanks for the suggestions! I do think part of the trouble was *us* beginning to feed her too soon and too much. We'll see what happens tomorrow.

[BatterseaBrindl]

Still thinking of Dorie.

Hope you all had a good night and she improves today

 

[jimsherriek]

Dorie, still thinking healing thoughts for you.

[greysmom]

I don't know if we did the right thing or not. We had to start feeding her Saturday night. She had fasted since Wednesday night - nothing to eat but meds and water. By Saturday afternoon I could see she was getting very lethargic from lack of food. The problem was that she was, and still is, having diarrhea. So we've been giving her frequent small meals of I/D canned food. She's much better and brighter today, and feels good enough to go outside for potties and sniffs. The diarrhea isn't watery - more like thin pudding poo - and there's not very much of it at a time, which I'm hoping is a good thing.

 

I really don't know what else we can try or what direction we can go now. This came on suddenly with no trigger that we can really think of that would have set her system off. Sunday afternoon three weeks ago she was fine and dandy. Sunday night she had to wake me up twice to go out with horrible diarrhea. I tried everything I could think of - fasting, pepcid, Dude's metronidazole, loperamide, more fasting, rice and boiled meat - nothing worked. Or nothing worked for long. She would have a poop one afternoon or morning that was better and then bam! back to bad again.

 

Finally last Saturday, I took in a sample to our vet for a fecal float. The vet could not see any parasites at all (though the sample was very diffuse) and only recommended we try giving her I/D kibble and canned for a couple days. This only gave her worse diarrhea - it became completely water, and very explosive, plus she started vomiting. Back to the vet Monday for a shot of Cerenia, metronidazole (flagyl), and sulcrafate that I talked them into because I knew other greyhounds here had had success with it. We did not.

 

Thursday the vet recommended five days of Panacur. Hoping it would coat her stomach and get rid of any worms they didn't see before. She's had four of the five doses, along with a day of restarting the metronidazole.

 

I'm just at a loss with how to help my poor girl. She's lost almost 10 pounds and needs to eat and not lose her nutrition.

[4My2Greys]

Chris I found the information I pasted lower here

http://www.diagnose-me.com/cond/C583962.html

 

Based on the information I wonder if W/D with a 8.8% fat and 27.8% insoluble fiber compared to I/D with 14.3% fat and only 4.4% insoluble fiber wouldn't be more appropriate for Dorie's condition.

 

Putrefaction dysbiosis results from diets high in fat and animal flesh and low in insoluble fiber. This type of diet produces an increased concentration of Bacteroides species and a decreased concentration of Bifidobacteria in the stool. It increases bile flow and induces bacterial urease activity. The change in composition of the gut flora leads to an increase in bacterial enzymes which, amongst other things, increases cancer causing substances and interferes with the body's hormones. As there is a decrease in friendly bacteria, the production of short-chain fatty acids and other beneficial nutrients is decreased. There is also an increase in ammonia which can have negative effects on numerous bodily functions.

 

Treatment and Prevention Putrefaction dysbiosis is usually managed with a diet high in both soluble and insoluble fiber and low in saturated fat and animal protein. These dietary changes work to lower the concentrations of Bacteroides and increase concentrations of lactic acid-producing bacteria (Bifidobacteria, Lactobacillus and lactic acid streptococci) in the colon. Supplementing the diet with defined sources of fiber can have variable effects on colonic dysbiosis. Insoluble fiber decreases bacterial concentration and microbial enzyme activity. Soluble fiber, on the other hand, tends to elevate bacterial concentration and enzyme activity, at the same time raising the levels of beneficial short chain fatty acids. This disparity may explain the superior effect of insoluble fiber in the prevention of colon cancer.

[Batmom]

Is she still on metronidazole? I'd keep her on that for at least 2 weeks. It can take a week (or more) for it to show an impact if the dog is seriously ill. She doesn't have to eat to take it, so if she feels like skipping a meal, give it to her anyways.

 

Panacur doesn't coat the stomach/intestines -- it's just an antihelminthic.

 

For food I would honestly give her whatever doesn't make her vomit. What was she eating before all this started? If you feel that isn't a good idea, then maybe time for ZD or ZD Ultra (canned to start with).

 

Hugs and best luck for your girl.

 

 

 

P.S. Has she had an abdominal x-ray and bloodwork since all this started? I would get those now, probably whether she had them in the beginning or not. If she has a foreign body or a growth, god forbid, nothing you feed her is going to make a difference. Really need to rule out that and rule out massive infection.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Batmom

[4My2Greys]

 

 

For food I would honestly give her whatever doesn't make her vomit. What was she eating before all this started? If you feel that isn't a good idea, then maybe time for ZD or ZD Ultra (canned to start with).

 

 

If she is dealing with Bacterial Dysbiosis, specifically putrifecation dysbiosis it was caused by a diet high in animal protein and high in fat. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris, but I believe Canidea Pure Sea was being fed, which has 40% protein, 20% fat and negligible fiber fits this diet description. To go back to something that may very well been the cause of her problem makes no sense at all. As far as Z/D goes, it is relatively high in fat and doesn't have the fiber necessary. Prescription W/D on the other hand with low fat, high fiber and low animal protein however, fits the description for what needs to be fed.

 

 

 

For food I would honestly give her whatever doesn't make her vomit. What was she eating before all this started? If you feel that isn't a good idea, then maybe time for ZD or ZD Ultra (canned to start with).

 

 

If she is dealing with Bacterial Dysbiosis, specifically putrifecation dysbiosis it was caused by a diet high in animal protein and high in fat. Correct me if I'm wrong Chris, but I believe Canidea Pure Sea was being fed, which has 40% protein, 20% fat and negligible fiber fits this diet description. To go back to something that may very well been the cause of her problem makes no sense at all. As far as Z/D goes, it is relatively high in fat and doesn't have the fiber necessary. Prescription W/D on the other hand with low fat, high fiber and low animal protein however, fits the description for what needs to be fed.

 

ETA: Dry W/D and not the canned has the high percentage of insoluble fiber needed if dealing with bacterial dysbiosis. It however does not have the soluble fiber that is also needed. This could be remedied by adding oatmeal or lentils. To make it easier on her system I would soak until mushy then put in a food processor.

Edited September 5, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Batmom]

Most dogs don't suddenly become very ill because of a food they've been doing well on. There are exceptions, but not many. The two more likely exceptions would be inflammatory bowel disease, and pancreatitis. Both but particularly the latter become more common as the dog ages.

 

While a reasonable number of dogs do have fiber-responsive diarrhea, the requirement for insoluble fiber is much more relevant to the human digestive tract than to the canine one.

 

Without further testing, it isn't possible for us -- or the vet! -- to make a diagnosis.

[4My2Greys]

Most dogs don't suddenly become very ill because of a food they've been doing well on. There are exceptions, but not many. The two more likely exceptions would be inflammatory bowel disease, and pancreatitis. Both but particularly the latter become more common as the dog ages.

 

While a reasonable number of dogs do have fiber-responsive diarrhea, the requirement for insoluble fiber is much more relevant to the human digestive tract than to the canine one.

 

Without further testing, it isn't possible for us -- or the vet! -- to make a diagnosis.

 

Jey I believe she has not been on that food that long, long enough however for a problem like this to develop. Chris has also mentioned that this is not necessarily new. It has gotten much worse this last week, but she has been having these problems for about the last month.

I agree about the testing, but in the meantime she needs to eat something that will help with the diarrhea.

When you say fiber responsive diarrhea are you referring to diarrhea caused by lack of fiber or the use of fiber to treat existing diarrhea? For the former I don't think it was caused so much by lack of fiber, but by the high fat and high protein. If the latter is the case many have been helped with the addition of pumpkin, which adds fiber.

 

ETA 1: At the very least this needs to be mentioned to the vet as a possibility. Vets may have the training, but they don't always think of different possibilities for the cause of the ailment. That is why it behooves us to do some research and ask questions.

 

ETA 2: The information in this article indicates that dysbiosis can be a problem in dogs.

 

http://www.petfoodindustry.com/Research_Notes/Microbes_and_GI_health_of_dogs_and_cats.html

Edited September 5, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Batmom]

Fiber-responsive diarrhea = diarrhea that resolves (or significantly improves) with the addition of fiber to the diet.

 

I've had dogs who did better with more fiber, and dogs who did better with less.

 

I've never had pumpkin/sweet potato produce a firmer stool, in any dog. Always surprises me when it is suggested. Here it does either nothing or *causes* diarrhea!

 

What to do when the dog has ongoing diarrhea and thorough testing points to no specific cause is really a judgement call on the part of vet and owner, based on the nuances of symptoms and responses that are hard for us to grasp in a brief written account. If the dog was doing well on its regular food before the diarrhea began and has not done well on any of the substitute foods, sometimes a return to the regular food makes for a happy surprise. Over the years most of my dogs did very well on I/D canned when ill -- better than anything I could cook/concoct for them -- but I've had one who never did, and more than one who didn't do well on it during a particular illness.