Ranger

[Guest twilliams]

Dr. Couto made a treatment protocol for our dog Skipper. The actual treatments were affordable and done by our vet and staff. They were wonderful and communicated test results and information to Dr. Couto regularly. When Skipper was diagnosed our vet immediately put him on pred until we had a definite plan in place. That reduced some of the swelling and seemed to help Skip. Good luck to you and Ranger.

[Guest Figmama]

I don't know why this site is showing me as a newbie.

Anyway, how did you get in touch with Dr. Couto? Can you please let me know what steps you took? Did your Vet contact him?

What treatment was given, how did your dog do and did he survive?

[carronstar]

No advice, just lots of good thoughts and prayers.

[MerlinsMum]

I am so very sorry :grouphug

[Guest Figmama]

I don't think there is a consult fee for OSU. Yet. At last weeks conference, Dr. Couto said they may implement one in the future. A this point, it's still a suggestion. You can call them directly or email & they will get back to you without your having to register or donate.

 

 

Sweetdogs,

Do you, or anyone, have an e-mail address other then the one I used? I posted what I received back and it is the form and goes to a fee.

If you have contact e-mail you used, I'd really appreciate that information.

 

thanks. I just don't seem to be finding the info you are all talking about.

 

Lymphoma is one of the easiest cancer to place into remission. Many hounds may life years after treatment and sail through the chemo protocol so, I'm not sure what/why your vet was taking about.

Even if you do not choose to do an aggressive chemo protocol many dogs will have a positive response to oral chemo such as prednisone/ leukeran.

I urge you to please contact Dr Couto or one of his team members. You'll get the the best advise available. Keep your chin up-- I know you feel like you got punched in the stomach but, there is a treatment plan out there for your boy-- fingers crossed things will go well for you. Keep us posted about your Ranger ( love his name!)

 

for some odd reason, this site is showing me as a newbie and I am unable to send private e-mails to a couple of you.

 

Detailed information would be helpful and, for those of you that have been through this, what you did and who you talked to.

 

No, my Vet did not seem to think chemo was a good idea and would be very expensive and, due to his age, we would then be addressing a quality of life issue for what may not give him much more time.

 

So far, I only feel the one node in his neck. He is eating and taking his walks but still has that dry hack on and off, whether that is related or not, I don't know. I don't read anything that says any dogs had a dry cough prior to diagnosis.

 

I am trying to act as normal as possible and rather glad that I have been busy today. He has been following me around a lot, which is kind of unusual but he seems to want to be on his beds in the rooms I am in.

 

I still thank him for his helping me (he always wags his tail) and always tell him what a handsome guy he is. LOL!! Yep, he has always been my handsome guy. sigh............

[Guest Figmama]

I live in Columbus, so I just go to OSU when I need to. I believe the email is greyosu@osu.edu.

 

There was nothing we could do for Crystal. She had a very unusual presentation and it was too aggressive.

 

Went to that link and got the university web site but still see no way to contact Dr. Couto.

What the heck am I doing wrong here?

[sweetdogs]

I live in Columbus, so I just go to OSU when I need to. I believe the email is greyosu@osu.edu.

 

There was nothing we could do for Crystal. She had a very unusual presentation and it was too aggressive.

 

Went to that link and got the university web site but still see no way to contact Dr. Couto.

What the heck am I doing wrong here?

 

This link has a phone number & an email address: OSU. I would give them a call. There's also an email address that I believe is still correct. Truly you don't need to make a donation but I agree the website can give you a little run around .

 

You don't have enough posts on GT to be able to send & receive private messages. I think you need 25, so just keep posting.

 

Lastly I meant to say how sorry I am to hear of Ranger's diagnosis. I do think there are protocols you can use for Ranger, especially since he's still feeling good. I just listened to a presentation on canine cancer last night & the oncologist said these very things. Since it's Friday afternoon, you may not hear back from OSU until Monday so if you have time you can research lymphoma on the innerwebs. Also if you don't have Ranger's records from your vet, see if you can get them. OSU will want to have as much info as possible.

[Guest Figmama]

Very sorry you've received this news. A few years ago when researching my senior hounds chronically elevated & rising lymphocyte levels I discovered that the cell type can be very indicative of survival rates. Don't know what it is for lymphoma but chronic lymphocytic leukemiat bares some similarities. For CLL, the T-cell type seems to have greater survival rates. CD8+ T-cell has the highest. I was not willing to subject this hound at that time to a bone marrow biopsy. Through searching I found that there are a few places that will do immunophenotyping through a blood sample using flow cytometry. OSU is one but at that time Dr. Couto said the lab only accepted samples from patients of their clinic. Colorado State however will process samples sent from outside sources. My vet pulled the sample, sent it off & we had the info in what seemed like a reasonable length of time. However, I think it may not have felt reasonable if my dog was facing a lymphoma diagnosis instead of a more likely chronic lymphocytic leukemia. As you research bear in mind that the cell types, treatment success & survival times for humans are not the same for dogs. Trying to remember but am thinking survival time for B & T cell types might be reversed between human & dogs. (Though could be misremembering.) Dr Anne Avery at CSU did a good deal of research relating to canine lymphocytosis & various cell types. She was quite helpful. Her contact info is HERE.

 

I'm sorry. Wish I had more to offer.

 

Thanks for the info. I just sent off an email to Dr. Avery.

[EllenEveBaz]

Just sending and and to your handsome boy and his family.

[Guest FrostyBottoms]

You know I am soooooo sorry.

[Guest brandi007]

I'm sorry for this bad news but I'm sending lots of good thoughts your way...

[Guest jettcricket]

I'm so sorry you and your baby are having to deal with this....

[GreyPoopon]

[JJNg]

Sorry to hear about Ranger's diagnosis. There is no right or wrong answer in which treatment course you decide to take (or not), but I feel it's important to have all the information before making your decision.

 

While it's great to get feedback from Dr. Couto and other experts in the field, the most practical way to go may be to find a local veterinary oncologist or internal medicine specialist and get an appointment for a consult. As tbhounds noted, lymphoma is one of the most common and treatable cancers that dogs get, and any vet oncologist or internist who is familiar with chemo would be more than capable of providing advice and treatment.

 

Most specialists only take cases on a referral basis, so you may need to ask your vet for this. To find an oncologist or internist, you can go to the ACVIM website. An oncology specialist would be the best choice, but in areas where there is no oncologist nearby, the internal medicine specialists usually do a lot of the cancer treatment themselves and may be quite experienced.

 

Most dogs respond very well to chemo for lymphoma. About 90% will go into remission with the standard protocols, and prognosis is usually around 12-18 months for B-cell lymphoma (which is more common), a little less for T-cell lymphoma. While rare, I've known a few dogs who were still doing well 3-5 years after being treated for lymphoma. Many dogs either have no side effects, or just very mild side effects from chemo. I spoke with our local oncologist, and she said that about 50% of dogs getting chemo have absolutely no bad reactions. The ones who do show mild signs usually have some nausea and GI upset which can be managed with medication. Less than 10% of dogs getting chemo get sick enough to need to be hospitalized.

 

Many people are reluctant to consider chemo for their pets because of bad experiences they've had themselves or with friends or relatives who have gone through chemo. However, the goals of chemo in veterinary medicine is very different from how it is used in human medicine. Because chemo in dogs is aimed at control of the cancer rather than trying to cure the cancer, much lower doses are used. Vet oncologists balance the chemo with the pet's quality of life, and if side effects occur, the chemo dose usually is decreased, switched to a different medication, or stopped. This is in contrast with human medicine where severe side effects are almost guaranteed to occur because they are using the highest dose tolerable in the hopes of curing the cancer.

[Guest Figmama]

Sorry to hear about Ranger's diagnosis. There is no right or wrong answer in which treatment course you decide to take (or not), but I feel it's important to have all the information before making your decision.

 

While it's great to get feedback from Dr. Couto and other experts in the field, the most practical way to go may be to find a local veterinary oncologist or internal medicine specialist and get an appointment for a consult. As tbhounds noted, lymphoma is one of the most common and treatable cancers that dogs get, and any vet oncologist or internist who is familiar with chemo would be more than capable of providing advice and treatment.

 

Most specialists only take cases on a referral basis, so you may need to ask your vet for this. To find an oncologist or internist, you can go to the ACVIM website. An oncology specialist would be the best choice, but in areas where there is no oncologist nearby, the internal medicine specialists usually do a lot of the cancer treatment themselves and may be quite experienced.

 

Most dogs respond very well to chemo for lymphoma. About 90% will go into remission with the standard protocols, and prognosis is usually around 12-18 months for B-cell lymphoma (which is more common), a little less for T-cell lymphoma. While rare, I've known a few dogs who were still doing well 3-5 years after being treated for lymphoma. Many dogs either have no side effects, or just very mild side effects from chemo. I spoke with our local oncologist, and she said that about 50% of dogs getting chemo have absolutely no bad reactions. The ones who do show mild signs usually have some nausea and GI upset which can be managed with medication. Less than 10% of dogs getting chemo get sick enough to need to be hospitalized.

 

Many people are reluctant to consider chemo for their pets because of bad experiences they've had themselves or with friends or relatives who have gone through chemo. However, the goals of chemo in veterinary medicine is very different from how it is used in human medicine. Because chemo in dogs is aimed at control of the cancer rather than trying to cure the cancer, much lower doses are used. Vet oncologists balance the chemo with the pet's quality of life, and if side effects occur, the chemo dose usually is decreased, switched to a different medication, or stopped. This is in contrast with human medicine where severe side effects are almost guaranteed to occur because they are using the highest dose tolerable in the hopes of curing the cancer.

 

I live in Columbus, so I just go to OSU when I need to. I believe the email is greyosu@osu.edu.

 

There was nothing we could do for Crystal. She had a very unusual presentation and it was too aggressive.

 

Went to that link and got the university web site but still see no way to contact Dr. Couto.

What the heck am I doing wrong here?

 

This link has a phone number & an email address: OSU. I would give them a call. There's also an email address that I believe is still correct. Truly you don't need to make a donation but I agree the website can give you a little run around .

 

You don't have enough posts on GT to be able to send & receive private messages. I think you need 25, so just keep posting.

 

Lastly I meant to say how sorry I am to hear of Ranger's diagnosis. I do think there are protocols you can use for Ranger, especially since he's still feeling good. I just listened to a presentation on canine cancer last night & the oncologist said these very things. Since it's Friday afternoon, you may not hear back from OSU until Monday so if you have time you can research lymphoma on the innerwebs. Also if you don't have Ranger's records from your vet, see if you can get them. OSU will want to have as much info as possible.

 

Boy, this is driving me nuts as I've been on this site for years. My computer had a major problem a few weeks ago so maybe that has something to do with it. Guess I'll just have to build up my status again.

 

Sorry to hear about Ranger's diagnosis. There is no right or wrong answer in which treatment course you decide to take (or not), but I feel it's important to have all the information before making your decision.

 

While it's great to get feedback from Dr. Couto and other experts in the field, the most practical way to go may be to find a local veterinary oncologist or internal medicine specialist and get an appointment for a consult. As tbhounds noted, lymphoma is one of the most common and treatable cancers that dogs get, and any vet oncologist or internist who is familiar with chemo would be more than capable of providing advice and treatment.

 

Most specialists only take cases on a referral basis, so you may need to ask your vet for this. To find an oncologist or internist, you can go to the ACVIM website. An oncology specialist would be the best choice, but in areas where there is no oncologist nearby, the internal medicine specialists usually do a lot of the cancer treatment themselves and may be quite experienced.

 

Most dogs respond very well to chemo for lymphoma. About 90% will go into remission with the standard protocols, and prognosis is usually around 12-18 months for B-cell lymphoma (which is more common), a little less for T-cell lymphoma. While rare, I've known a few dogs who were still doing well 3-5 years after being treated for lymphoma. Many dogs either have no side effects, or just very mild side effects from chemo. I spoke with our local oncologist, and she said that about 50% of dogs getting chemo have absolutely no bad reactions. The ones who do show mild signs usually have some nausea and GI upset which can be managed with medication. Less than 10% of dogs getting chemo get sick enough to need to be hospitalized.

 

Many people are reluctant to consider chemo for their pets because of bad experiences they've had themselves or with friends or relatives who have gone through chemo. However, the goals of chemo in veterinary medicine is very different from how it is used in human medicine. Because chemo in dogs is aimed at control of the cancer rather than trying to cure the cancer, much lower doses are used. Vet oncologists balance the chemo with the pet's quality of life, and if side effects occur, the chemo dose usually is decreased, switched to a different medication, or stopped. This is in contrast with human medicine where severe side effects are almost guaranteed to occur because they are using the highest dose tolerable in the hopes of curing the cancer.

[Guest Figmama]

Thank you for all the information and statistics. I am reading a lot different information on the Internet and various dog sites they you are giving me. I will check out the link you gave me. The closes facility to me would probably be UC Davis and I might try contacting them on Monday. To be truthful, my husband is not supportive in seeking chemo therapy, etc. It is not that he doesn't love the dog, with him it's just more *practical* from a financial point of view, esp if the possible survival time isn't very long. I will continue to research though. One of my Vets told me they can't actually stage this or determine if it is B or T cell unless they get tissue and then grade it but, since the aspiration biopsy was not good, they feel it is probably advanced. I just feel like my head is spinning. I've dealt with a lot of things with my animals over the years but not lymphoma. I am trying to see what options we might have. Of course, my main concern is that he is comfortable and not suffering and, like you mentioned, I keep reading how sick these dogs can be on Chemo. I had a friend that spent $14,000 on treatments for one of her Shelties (younger) and got maybe a little over a year. She said she would not do it again.

Again, thanks. I have not made any decisions yet but know that I'd better look at my options soon.

I love dog people. We are are always so much help. Yep.

[tbhounds]

Agreed- you really need a biopsy of the node to see what you are truly dealing with. The biopsy is no biggie- they just need a small piece of the node (tiny little insicion).

If iv chemo is not the path you care to choose there is a rather inexpensive oral route available (predisone and leukeran). I think you will be surprised how quickly you will see remission. Depending on what type of cancer cell you are dealing with will determine the length of remission.

Please seek further treatment as lymphoma (in most cases) can be treated but, you need to get a jump on it before it gets a strong hold on your pup. UC Davis sounds like a great plan-- they have all the Drs your pup will need all in the same hospital (internists, oncos etc). Please don't lose hope-many, many times lymphoma can be handled giving dogs quality of life.

[Guest Figmama]

Agreed- you really need a biopsy of the node to see what you are truly dealing with. The biopsy is no biggie- they just need a small piece of the node (tiny little insicion).

If iv chemo is not the path you care to choose there is a rather inexpensive oral route available (predisone and leukeran). I think you will be surprised how quickly you will see remission. Depending on what type of cancer cell you are dealing with will determine the length of remission.

Please seek further treatment as lymphoma (in most cases) can be treated but, you need to get a jump on it before it gets a strong hold on your pup. UC Davis sounds like a great plan-- they have all the Drs your pup will need all in the same hospital (internists, oncos etc). Please don't lose hope-many, many times lymphoma can be handled giving dogs quality of life.

[Guest Figmama]

I finally had time to check the UC Davis site and they do have a study going on for Lymphoma and Ranger *may* meet the requirements. However, I think they want that biopsy so it is staged, which presents another problem. He does not do well with anesthesia!!! I took the anesthesia protocol into my Vet when we first got him. His first teeth cleaning, he did okay. Subsequent cleanings, and even after a light anesthetic to get an x-ray of his chest, brought on bad after affects. I mean panting all night, shivering, pulling in of hind legs. My Vet insists he is using the same protocol. I hate to even have to have him put out to get a biopsy.

I will try to make some calls on Monday but, to be truthful, my husband is not receptive to this at all.

And, like I said, you seem to be in the minority when it comes to being optimistic about success rates. What I've read and heard, again, these dogs have side effects, go into remission to have this resurface months later. Then, it gets down to a quality of life issue. Do you give them what good days they have left at home or do you put them through treatment. He hates, absolutely hates, the Vet's office.

thanks again.

[tbhounds]

If you decide for whatever reason not to pursue the biopsy etc at the very least you can try the oral pred. It's dirt cheap. I hate to harp but, lymphoma can be treated- I personally am familar with many positive outcomes. If you should decide to choose the biopsy route I would let UC Davis perform it-- they are very familar with GH's and their quirks. Whichever you decide I wish you the best.

[Guest Figmama]

If you decide for whatever reason not to pursue the biopsy etc at the very least you can try the oral pred. It's dirt cheap. I hate to harp but, lymphoma can be treated- I personally am familar with many positive outcomes. If you should decide to choose the biopsy route I would let UC Davis perform it-- they are very familar with GH's and their quirks. Whichever you decide I wish you the best.

 

Thanks so much. I wonder why neither of my Vets suggested the Pred. I will be discussing this with them next for sure!

 

I will also try to call UC Davis to get more information on the research study. It would be difficult for us to have to get him back and forth, so that may be a problem. I'll ask if they work with local Vets and what treatment would entail.

 

Hey, continue harping, I'm listening.

 

thanks

[4My2Greys]

The one piece of advice I would give that I think is most important is to not wait too long before starting some kind of treatment, whether it be conventional such as chemo or radiation, or alternative such as Artemisinin or the Budwig protocol, or a combo of conventional and alternative. Each day you get a jump on this is precious time in beating this or getting it into submission.

I was also going to mention a study that the University of Washington is doing on canine B-cell lymphoma and treating with a combo of chemo and artemisinin. I would strongly suggest if you don't decide to do the chemo route to at least look into artemisinin. There is a Yahoo group for those interested in or using artemisinin in treating canine cancer that has a lot of good information and is very helpful.

[Guest Figmama]

The one piece of advice I would give that I think is most important is to not wait too long before starting some kind of treatment, whether it be conventional such as chemo or radiation, or alternative such as Artemisinin or the Budwig protocol, or a combo of conventional and alternative. Each day you get a jump on this is precious time in beating this or getting it into submission.

I was also going to mention a study that the University of Washington is doing on canine B-cell lymphoma and treating with a combo of chemo and artemisinin. I would strongly suggest if you don't decide to do the chemo route to at least look into artemisinin. There is a Yahoo group for those interested in or using artemisinin in treating canine cancer that has a lot of good information and is very helpful.

 

I understand the urgency. I am almost 100% sure I would not try the Chemo.

I don't know anything about arteminsinin or the other drug someone mentioned to be given with the Pred. I hate Pred but would be willing to give it a try.

Just a busy weekend for me with in and out stuff. I need to start writing this stuff down so I can discuss it with my Vet. I don't know that my Vet keeps up on all the newest treatments but always seems to be receptive to info I bring in.

 

I knew someone in our group had adopted a litter sister to our Ranger. I contacted our group co-ordinator to see how her health is. Unfortunately, she passed from bone cancer in 2009. I wonder how the rest of the litter did.

 

Having had Shelties for years, I was very familiar with my own dogs and their backgrounds. Too bad we don't have that background info on these dogs.

[Guest Figmama]

Ok, so I saw reference to using a combo of Pred and Artemisinin and another combination of Pred and Leukeran, neither of which I've heard of.

Has anyone used these combination of drugs for cancer and, if so, did they help? Side effects? Doses and length of time used?

 

thanks

[JJNg]

I've also known a number of dogs who have done well with chemo for lymphoma as well as other cancers. However, I do understand that it's quite a financial commitment which usually only delays the inevitable. It's a very personal decision - some people have the resources and would spend whatever is necessary to get a little more time together. Others choose to keep their companion comfortable for what time they have left and not pursue aggressive treatment. I honestly feel there is no right or wrong choice, just what is best for your individual situation.

 

One question...I believe you only mentioned a single lump? Is it one of his lymph nodes? Does Ranger have any other lymph nodes that are enlarged? Most of the statistics out there apply to dogs with the most common form - multicentric lymphoma, where there are usually multiple lymph nodes enlarged all over the body. If it is a single mass, it may be an atypical case that may respond differently, perhaps even have a better prognosis.

 

Prednisone is an easy and inexpensive treatment that is definitely worth a try. It usually helps slow down the progression, sometimes even shrinks the lymph nodes, but its effect may not last for very long. The stats I've usually heard (referring to most cases with multiple lymph node involvement) is a median survival time of 3-4 weeks with no treatment, and 2-3 months with prednisone alone.

 

However, you should be pretty sure that you aren't going to change your mind and want to do chemo before starting pred. If you start pred first, then decide to do chemo later, the chemo will be less effective and not give you as good results.

 

I had one client with a golden retriever who did 1 or 2 chemo treatments, then decided to stop due to mild side effects (nausea, diarrhea). They continued with pred and Leukeran, and IIRC, she did pretty well for about 3-4 months. I don't believe she had any side effects other than the expected increased drinking and urination from the pred. Can't remember doses as she was being managed by our oncologist.