Phenobarbital Side Effects

[galgomum]

A greyhound who starts having seizures at the age of 10 could possibly having something more going on neurologically. I'd have him checked out. Most dogs who develop seizures do so between the ages of 3 - 5 years of age. As for the side effects of the pheno, yes, it can cause dogs to be off balance. They can basically walk around drunk, have little coordination and splay their back legs, usually for up to 2 to 3 weeks before the body adjusts. In most cases the body does adjust. Even at that they can have a little hind end weakness the entire time they're on it. My Saint takes 600 mg. a day, 300 a.m. and 300 p.m. and he does have a little hind end weakness but it isn't so bad that they can't run and play in the back yard. He's been on it for over 6 years now and is doing fine.

 

If he were my greyhound, I would have him checked out neurologically because this sounds like it could be something more than just the medication, especially at his age.

 

Sad, but very true. We just lost our dog Stuey, who also started having seizures at (nearly) 10 yrs. Stu had his first seizure 3/10/11. Within 36 hours he would have four more. His last seizure actually happened at the vet and was quite serious. Like your boy, Stuey's bloodwork was also fine, so he was started on pheno (and a combination of pheno and KBr about a month later). In Stuey's case (as you and others have mentioned), he was not the same dog after being medicated, but DH and I remained hopeful. Unfortunately, our optimism didn't last long. It wasn't long before other symptoms started to appear, and we realized that we were likely dealing with something more than just epilepsy. Within a month of his first seizure, it was obvious that he had lost some vision in his right eye. He was no longer able to respond to commands, and he started walking around in circles (always circling to the left). Pheno had made Stuey hungrier and thirstier, and we had tried to accomodate his increased need to relieve himself. He had plenty of accidents in the house, but it wasn't anything DH and I couldn't handle. I was ready to admit to myself that something was very wrong when, after being in the yard for long periods of time, Stuey would come into the house and immediately pee (or have a bowel movement). It was as if he didn't know where he was supposed to go anymore (if that makes sense). It also got to the point where he couldn't seem to find his way back to the house after being let out (which was not the case when he first started on pheno). In Stuey's last week, he also seemed to have problems seeing out of his "good" eye. He could no longer navigate his way around our home, and had to be guided to his bed, to the door to go out, and to his food dish. His circling (always in the same direction)also became more intense. If Stuey was awake he was walking in circles. If he was outside, he was walking around in circles. While he was eating, he would take breaks so he could walk in circles (and proceed to forget what he was doing and where his food dish was). The best way I can describe it is OCD.

 

Sorry for the drawn out post. The only reason I'm mentioning all of this is that, in the event you might also be dealing with something more serious than epilepsy (like a brain tumor), other symptoms will likely present themselves. Dopey, clumsy behaviour and muscle weakness are common side effect of pheno. These should subside (to some degree) once your pup gets used to his dose, or once his dose is lowered. Other symptoms (like vision loss, constant circling and forgetting where he is supposed to relieve himself in Stuey's case) could mean something more sinister is brewing. Our story didn't have a happy ending, but I'm sending you tons of hugs because DH and I have been there. My sincere hope is that some simple alterations in his meds is all your boy needs to be a happy, healthy hound.

 

HUGS!

 

Right now we are living this with Johnny.

He started having seizures after he was put on PPA for peeing issues. Unfortunately, they triggered his first seizure and he had a grand mal with the after effects you describe from your boy.

Johnny isn't on pheno, but on zonisamide and melatonin. He had a few more seizures but not many yet.

Unfortunately the signs of a tumor are there and at the moment he is loosing ' things' now every day. Since yesterday he doesn't seem to know how to get on the couch anymore and our velcro boy will not stay in the same room as us.

What I wanted to say is: he also had trouble with his back end at some point and still is weaker.

And he isn't on the same medication. Sometimes things happen close together. We certainly are experiencing that now.

So it might be worth to have the vet check him out.

 

Hope he recovers and the seizures can be controlled and he will be back to being who he was before.

Hugs from here also. This is scary stuff.

[GreyWrangler]

That is a huge dose to start off with, as Lindsey wrote PB doesn't need loading doses. It works quickly.

 

Red worked up to a high dose over the 5 years he was on Pb (the body, humand and K9, builds a tolerance to the drug, that is why normally theu start low and work up) But I do not recall what it was. Another side effect after they get over the dopey phase is hunger.

 

After the seizure their blood sugar drops, give them several high cal snacks afterward.

[greypuppyluv]

150mg twice a day is a huge amount to start with. From reading the EPIL-K9 list, most dogs start out with 60mg twice a day. Putting a dog on that much pheno at first can certainly mess with their rear end and cause them weakness quickly. Some rear end weakness is to be expected, but it tends to diminish over 2-3 weeks. Pheno doesn't generally require a loading dose like potassium bromide or sodium bromide does, so I don't understand why your vet started him so high. I would definitely lower the dosage.

 

I would also recommend seeing a neurologist. I know you said you didn't want to put Tone through any testing, but a neuro can help in other ways since they see this kind of thing more often than regular vets do.....it's their specialty. They have the knowledge to know what to look for at his age and what certain outcomes may be or what may work at this point if you are looking at a brain tumor (one of the most likely scenarios at his age ). You don't have to do an MRI or any other testing, but you can get their opinion on what they think is going on.

 

My vet said to give him half the dosage which is what I'm doing today, and tomorrow I'm going to drop it down to 1/3 rd. I'll give him 50mg in the am, 50mg pm. I'm thinking it's not good to stop the meds completely so I'll try it this way. I feel so bad for him. He doesn't even want to stand up to eat. I'm hand feeding him homemade treats and his food so he doesn't have to stand up. It's stinks. I want my dog back!

 

 

Steak is now up to 300mgs a day (may be like 320 or something I can't remember the exact dosage but I know it's around 300). He is not the same dog he was I miss him. He is still a very sweet, gentle soul but is different since we started medicating. We have been on the pheno now almost two months and he is still seizing about every two weeks. His are gran mal seizures every time. The most recent was just last week. He takes about 2 hours to settle after them. He is much, much more vocal and whiney now as well. He is always hungry and never seems to really relax any more. I often have had thoughts of whether he is better off with or without the meds. The vet and I have agreed to one more increase in the meds and to add potassium bromide and then we will do an MRI...

 

Beth - those side effects are totally normal for pheno. And, if I can offer some advice for you, it would be to try adding another med like potassium bromide, sodium bromide or Keppra before doing another MRI. It can be typical for a dog to not respond to just one med......Phaelin didn't. He was seizing every 17 days (EXACTLY 17 days) on sodium bromide, so we added pheno and that gave us more time inbetween seizures. He now goes 2 months between seizures and I'm thinking of adding Keppra to see if that might help us get more time between them. You might also try putting Steak on other meds besides pheno to see if his side effects lessen or go away.

 

I really can't stress enough how helpful the EPIL-K9 list on the canine-epilepsy.com website has been for me. It truly has given me so much more information than I would have ever learned on any other message boards or even from my vet. You can find out how to join if you click here.

 

Hugs to both of you.....seizures for whatever reason just suck.

[Guest greycrew]

Update on Tone! Tuesday after work he couldn't even stand up - he would fall right back down. So I let him stay on his dog bed, did not give him another dose of pheno and a few hours later he got up, went outside, ate and drank water. He also jumped right in my bed without any help. Yesterday I gave him 25mg in the am and 25mg in the evening and he is just about back to his normal self. Slight wobble, but nothing major. Eating normally, drinking A LOT! Had to go out 4 times during the night. I will keep him on this dosage for a few weeks, then try to bump it up depending on seizure activity. No seizures since Saturday. Crossing my fingers! Thanks everyone for your input!

[kamsmom]

Yay, sounds much better.

 

Question for anyone... Steak has started screaming out at random times. As if he is hurt. Twice last night and he was just laying on his bed. Has anyone had that as a side effect?

[Guest greycrew]

kamsmom

Posted Today, 02:58 PM

 

Yay, sounds much better.

 

Question for anyone... Steak has started screaming out at random times. As if he is hurt. Twice last night and he was just laying on his bed. Has anyone had that as a side effect?

 

 

I think I recall reading that about Rainey. Check with Raineysmom or read her posts.

[RaineysMom]

kamsmom

Posted Today, 02:58 PM

 

Yay, sounds much better.

 

Question for anyone... Steak has started screaming out at random times. As if he is hurt. Twice last night and he was just laying on his bed. Has anyone had that as a side effect?

 

 

I think I recall reading that about Rainey. Check with Raineysmom or read her posts.

 

so glad Tone's doing better!!! :yay I will keep praying for no seizures. THEY SUCK.

 

with Rainey, the screaming she did was not "in pain" kind of scream, it was of frustration, or hunger, or I don't know what. It wasn't the GSOD, it was more akin to a person yelling, I guess. That was in between the non-stop barking, whining and rooing. The good Lord only knows what was happening to her brain by that time.

 

 

Sad, but very true. We just lost our dog Stuey, who also started having seizures at (nearly) 10 yrs. Stu had his first seizure 3/10/11. Within 36 hours he would have four more. His last seizure actually happened at the vet and was quite serious. Like your boy, Stuey's bloodwork was also fine, so he was started on pheno (and a combination of pheno and KBr about a month later). In Stuey's case (as you and others have mentioned), he was not the same dog after being medicated, but DH and I remained hopeful. Unfortunately, our optimism didn't last long. It wasn't long before other symptoms started to appear, and we realized that we were likely dealing with something more than just epilepsy. Within a month of his first seizure, it was obvious that he had lost some vision in his right eye. He was no longer able to respond to commands, and he started walking around in circles (always circling to the left). Pheno had made Stuey hungrier and thirstier, and we had tried to accomodate his increased need to relieve himself. He had plenty of accidents in the house, but it wasn't anything DH and I couldn't handle. I was ready to admit to myself that something was very wrong when, after being in the yard for long periods of time, Stuey would come into the house and immediately pee (or have a bowel movement). It was as if he didn't know where he was supposed to go anymore (if that makes sense). It also got to the point where he couldn't seem to find his way back to the house after being let out (which was not the case when he first started on pheno). In Stuey's last week, he also seemed to have problems seeing out of his "good" eye. He could no longer navigate his way around our home, and had to be guided to his bed, to the door to go out, and to his food dish. His circling (always in the same direction)also became more intense. If Stuey was awake he was walking in circles. If he was outside, he was walking around in circles. While he was eating, he would take breaks so he could walk in circles (and proceed to forget what he was doing and where his food dish was). The best way I can describe it is OCD.

 

Sorry for the drawn out post. The only reason I'm mentioning all of this is that, in the event you might also be dealing with something more serious than epilepsy (like a brain tumor), other symptoms will likely present themselves. Dopey, clumsy behaviour and muscle weakness are common side effect of pheno. These should subside (to some degree) once your pup gets used to his dose, or once his dose is lowered. Other symptoms (like vision loss, constant circling and forgetting where he is supposed to relieve himself in Stuey's case) could mean something more sinister is brewing. Our story didn't have a happy ending, but I'm sending you tons of hugs because DH and I have been there. My sincere hope is that some simple alterations in his meds is all your boy needs to be a happy, healthy hound.

 

HUGS!

 

wow. Stuey sounds so very much like what Rainey went through too. Total OCD type behaivor too, she seemed to completely forget her housebreaking too -- would do the same thing, go pee 2-3 time out in the yard then would come in and pee right on the floor. The vet said it was like cognitive dysfunction from her brain atrophying. She would do the "circling" thing only when she'd have her "episodes" (usually after a med change/increase) and those would last anywhere from 45 minutes to 3 hours at a time. I'm sorry about your Stuey. :(

[kamsmom]

Thanks, yes, the whining and barking and general talking (yelling at me) are at this point, normal to me. The screaming is a GSOD scream and is not just a short scream, it is loud and sounds as if he is stuck in something or we are torturing him I sat with him the first one and he just laid there screaming out. I just don't know what else to do. He has another appointment next week.

[Guest CampWhippet]

 

 

Question for anyone... Steak has started screaming out at random times. As if he is hurt. Twice last night and he was just laying on his bed. Has anyone had that as a side effect?

 

Not here and Bella is in year 3-4 with seizures.

[GreyWrangler]

No unnecesary screaming from Red dog either, and he was a drama queen at times. He was on PB for 5-6 years.

[TheFullHouse]

Thanks, yes, the whining and barking and general talking (yelling at me) are at this point, normal to me. The screaming is a GSOD scream and is not just a short scream, it is loud and sounds as if he is stuck in something or we are torturing him I sat with him the first one and he just laid there screaming out. I just don't know what else to do. He has another appointment next week.

 

This may be something totally unrelated to the medication Beth. Could he be having cramps in his legs? Has he been particularly active lately, zoomies in the yard and such and is he drinking enough water.

[kamsmom]

He is actually much lazier now The others have tried to engage him in play in the yard and he just ignores them. I'll have to watch the water, honestly, I have no idea if he is taking less or more. Breakfast and dinner are fine, he still eats with gusto and loves his cookie treats.

 

What is funny tho, I had two major leg cramps last night too. Hmm, wonder if he is giving me sympathy

[greypuppyluv]

Beth, I have seen one or two people on the EPIL list take their dogs off pheno because they didn't tolerate it well at all. I don't remember the reasons why, but it could be that Steak just doesn't tolerate pheno well. There are several dogs on the list who are on several meds, but pheno isn't one of them. Or, it could be that the level is too high for him.....have you had his blood levels tested lately to see if he's in the therapeutic range? He might do better if you add potassium bromide and possibly lower the pheno (over time, of course).

 

Greycrew, I'm glad Tone is doing better. The stumbling around thing is so hard to watch. I hope the seizure monster stays away.

[galgomum]

Thanks, yes, the whining and barking and general talking (yelling at me) are at this point, normal to me. The screaming is a GSOD scream and is not just a short scream, it is loud and sounds as if he is stuck in something or we are torturing him I sat with him the first one and he just laid there screaming out. I just don't know what else to do. He has another appointment next week.

 

Johnny isn't screaming, the opposite, he is very quiet but since Monday he is whimpering now and then and chatters to the extreme. Last night he had another seizure, big one and it took very long for him to settle. We had a very hard time waking him up this morning.

During the night I had to look and wait for a heartbeat several times.

We are seeing the vet tomorrow.

[EllenEveBaz]

Hugs to all.

[Guest greycrew]

I am so sorry to have to post this. Tone is gone. I will never forgive myself. I don't know if I lowered the pheno too fast? Vet said to stop it, but I lowered it. He was laying on the patio on his dog bed which he loves to do in the morning and must have gotten up, had a seizure and couldn't get up. I ran out to him and picked him up and he ran through the yard. I put his leash on him to get him to the car and he got excited to go for a walk then just laid down and couldn't get back up. I called a friend to come help and he started to cluster. Had 5 grand mals before we got to vet. It was horrible. I had to let him go. I never ever wanted him to go through that again. I don't know how to live without him. He was my first greyhound. The absolute love of my life heart dog. I have his litter mate. She looks just like a mini Tone. And another greyhound and iggy and I'm trying to be strong for them, but I can't stop crying. Torturing myself about what I could have done better. I don't know how I'm going to sleep without him in my bed. I'm so sorry and hope no one else has to go through this.

[Anne]

I'm sooo very sorry. So sorry. I had a seizure gh a few years ago, it's not easy, he died way too young too.

 

Edited to add: You didn't do anything wrong. Nothing. When something starts to go wrong in the brain, sometimes we can control it and sometimes we can't, it's so frustrating. But you did NOTHING wrong. Please don't torture yourself.

Edited May 13, 2011 by Anne

[greypuppyluv]

I'm so very sorry. How truly heartbreaking.

 

Please don't beat yourself up about how you handled Tone's treatment. From what you've posted, it sounds like he had a brain tumor and there really wasn't anything else you could have done differently. Unfortunately, when it's something like that, the frequency of the seizures usually increase and it can get to a point where the dog clusters and sometimes they just don't recover from them. An adopter from our group just recently lost her 10.5 year old greyhound from the same thing. It's so very hard.

[RaineysMom]

oh God, I am so sorry.... :cry1

 

I absolutely agree -- you did everything you could. There was definitely something more going on in his brain that you could not have known about and there was nothing more you could do. :(

 

sending you many, many very sympathetic hugs. I will tell Rainey to make sure she keeps an eye out for him at the Bridge, she can show him how wonderful it is to finally be seizure free now :cry1

 

edited to add: this seems like it is happening MUCH MUCH too often all of a sudden with our 9+ year old hounds. Something must be going on :(

Edited May 13, 2011 by RaineysMom

[Batmom]

My heart goes out to you. You didn't do anything wrong -- you did everything right to best help your boy. I so wish that had been enough.

 

Godspeed, sweet pup.

 

 

 

[galgomum]

I am so sorry

 

Just like the others said, there was nothing you could have done different to prevent this.

[Guest greycrew]

Thanks everyone. I wish I could back to yesterday and take him home and try something else. I didn't want him to suffer anymore. I am devastated. I know he's with my Juneau now and Rainey and all the greyhounds we loved and lost. But, I want him with me. It was unbearable sleeping in my bed without him. I will post pics of my baby this weekend. I'm very grateful for this board. No one understands like greyhound people, that's for sure.

[sweetdogs]

I am so so sorry. Please don't blame yourself - your love for Tone is so evident in your posts & you wanted the absolute best for him. He knows you loved him & his love for you will give you the strength you need to go on.

[Guest jackjack]

oh God, I am so sorry.... :cry1

 

I absolutely agree -- you did everything you could. There was definitely something more going on in his brain that you could not have known about and there was nothing more you could do. :(

 

sending you many, many very sympathetic hugs. I will tell Rainey to make sure she keeps an eye out for him at the Bridge, she can show him how wonderful it is to finally be seizure free now :cry1

 

edited to add: this seems like it is happening MUCH MUCH too often all of a sudden with our 9+ year old hounds. Something must be going on :(

 

Could not have said this better myself. Please, please don't beat yourself up about it. I can guarantee that probably anyone who has been through this (middle-aged seizing dog/deteriorating health/no clear diagnosis) spends a fair amount of time second guessing themselves. DH and I did too. Because Stuey also had no official diagnosis, DH and I spent his first month of Pheno treatment in total denial. We were hopeful that, once we'd figured out his optimal dosage of Pheno and KBr, that we'd get our happy, quirky dog back. It didn't happen. My biggest regret is that, by the time other symptoms started to emerge, he was in a great deal of discomfort...Today, I still beat myself up - not because we put him down... but because we waited too long to do it. I have heard someone on GT mention that it's perhaps better to end a dog's life a week too early, than to end it a week too late. My heart tells me we waited a week too late with Stu There really was nothing more you could have done for Tone and, as others have suggested, his seizures were likely a symptom of something else.

 

I just wanted to add something. When a dog is clearly diagnosed with something (like cancer), it has to be awful to hear... but at least you have your diagnosis. You can then make informed decisions regarding your hound's treatment and keeping them comfortable. Not knowing exactly what's wrong is an awful, awful place to be. This post has re-opened a lot of rough feelings for me

 

Please take care of yourself, and know that Tone is running seizure-free with all those who have gone before him.

 

Shelley

[carronstar]

I am so very sorry for your loss. It is so hard to watch our pups seize and be unable to help them. However, you truly did everything you could for your Tone. Please don't beat yourself up by thinking that you didn't. You loved him, and when he needed you to be your strongest for him, you were.

Godspeed, Tone.