Fenway's Mystery Pee Problems - Ultrasound Results: Kidney Damage

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

Doesn't that say Cocci in the urine?? Doesn't this mean infection??

[Guest hlpnhounds]

White blood cells and cocci.....infection. Certainly wouldn't jump to the big guns right off the bat. Are you certain that it's not an incontinence issue ? Is he actually emptying his bladder when he has these accidents or is he leaving little puddles everywhere ?

[gracegirl]

Doesn't that say Cocci in the urine?? Doesn't this mean infection??

 

I dunno! Let's see what he grows!

 

Actually, most urine will have bacteria in it from the urethia (sp?) when a free catch is analyzed. It's my understanding that's totally normal, and no cause for alarm. That's why you need to get a sterile sample (with a needle directly from the bladder). Also, if you look at what was processed by the lab (the computer printed version, second image) there is no bacteria.

 

The handwritten notes are from the in-house urinalysis done at the vets office. The sterile sample they took today is the one being clutured. I'm going to know way too much about pee by the time this is all said and done!

[gracegirl]

White blood cells and cocci.....infection. Certainly wouldn't jump to the big guns right off the bat. Are you certain that it's not an incontinence issue ? Is he actually emptying his bladder when he has these accidents or is he leaving little puddles everywhere ?

 

Def. not incontinence. Grace has spay incontinence and her symptoms were nothing at all like his. And he is def. emptying his bladder every time! Trust me, I didn't think that much pee could come out of a dog. Each accident is one giant puddle which takes at least two bath towels to clean up.

 

Question...the in house (handwritten) urinalysis was taken on 2/19, where it mentions 0-3 WBC/hpf. But then the one from the lab on 2/26 showed no white blood cells. Why? Wouldn't those still be present?

[Batmom]

A lot of normal skin flora are cocci, so if you see only a few, you usually don't get exercised about it.

Edited March 1, 2011 by Batmom

[cmc333]

I had a senior girlie that would periodically get UTI's. I got so good at diagnosing them before they did a urinalysis that they would give me abs and then do a culture. She had bladder stones which was causing her problems; she was also 15 years old. Baytril for 2 weeks would usually do the trick for her. All her bloodwork and tests were totally normal and the urinalysis never showed an infection.

 

Connie

 

Interesting. Again, this is all new for me..so I sounds like I don't know what I'm talking about, I don't!

 

Are you saying that when your girl had a UTI, her bloodwork and urinalysis would be normal...but that you were able to culture and find something there?

 

Also, how did you determine she had bladder stones? That's one of the possible things we'd be looking for in an ultrasound. I'm curious!

 

Yes, I could tell she had a UTI and the bloodwork and urinalysis would be normal, but when cultured it showed an infection. I had her since she was 6 months old, so got pretty attuned to her normal/abnormal peeing.

 

I had an x-ray done on her bladder to see the stones. We operated and had them removed; she was 15-1/2 when we did it (talk about deathly afraid of her going under) and I got a UTI -free year after that. She had old age incontinence, but that's a whole different story from UTI and bladder stones.

[NeylasMom]

I wouldn't worry about measuring water intake if you can't do it easily and you know he's drinking excessively. You know your dog, you sound pretty certain his consumption is increased, why worry about measuring at this stage.

[Batmom]

 

Question...the in house (handwritten) urinalysis was taken on 2/19, where it mentions 0-3 WBC/hpf. But then the one from the lab on 2/26 showed no white blood cells. Why? Wouldn't those still be present?

 

0-3 WBC/hpf is just about zero. 'Course, if the dog has symptoms, seeing any is a "hmmm" moment. If he's drinking a lot and peeing a lot and his concentration is down, he could be flushing most of the nasties out, making them few and far between. Or it could be insignificant.

 

Isn't that a big help?

 

 

Measuring water can be useful, because at a certain level (usually quite high, so you'd notice filling up water bowls a lot) you start to think diabetes (mellitus or insipidus).

[4My2Greys]

White blood cells and cocci.....infection. Certainly wouldn't jump to the big guns right off the bat. Are you certain that it's not an incontinence issue ? Is he actually emptying his bladder when he has these accidents or is he leaving little puddles everywhere ?

 

Def. not incontinence. Grace has spay incontinence and her symptoms were nothing at all like his. And he is def. emptying his bladder every time! Trust me, I didn't think that much pee could come out of a dog. Each accident is one giant puddle which takes at least two bath towels to clean up.

 

Question...the in house (handwritten) urinalysis was taken on 2/19, where it mentions 0-3 WBC/hpf. But then the one from the lab on 2/26 showed no white blood cells. Why? Wouldn't those still be present?

 

From Merriam-Webster: Incontinence - b : inability of the body to control the evacuative functions of urination or defecation.

 

I'm not arguing semantics, but by definition they both would be considered incontinent, although for different reasons.

 

I was also experiencing the same giant puddle accidents with Nadir several times a day on a daily basis from Oct 2008 to Mar 2009. I'm going to share the general time line and what actions were being taken at this time along with the values that were out of range on his Jan 1, 2009 Urinalysis / culture from Antech.

 

After several vet visits and urinalysis that came back negative for bacteria and accidents still continuing I took him to the vet on Oct 30, 2008 and requested he be put on a 3 week course of Baytril. On Nov 17, 2008 he was seen by Auburn University Veterinary School to have a full neurological exam to include MRI and spinal tap for suspected back problems that was causing his pain during walking and possibly his incontinence. The exam found nothing other than he tested positive for Toxoplasmosis. He had just completed his Baytril when he was put on a 6 week course of 900 mg Clindamyacin. All this time he was still experiencing these episodes of incontinence and it didn't matter if he was standing up or lying down. It would come out of him in a flood and he had no ability to stop it when it happened. These are some of the values from his Jan 1, 2009 urinalysis / culture that were of concern:

...................................................... Nadir's ....................Reference Range

 

pH: .................................................. 8.5.............................. 5.5 - 7.0

Specific Gravity:..............................1.034..........................1.015 - 1.050

Appearance:................................... Cloudy........................Clear

Protein:........................................... +3.................................Neg

Bilirubin: +2 Neg to +1

Blood:................................................4-10............................0-3

Bacteria:...........................................None

Microalbuminuria:..........................4.6.............................. < 2.6

The MA is greater than 2.5 mg/dl and less than 30 mg/dl, indicating microalbuminuria. MA usually indicates compromise of the glomerular barrier and is significant finding when it is persistent. Persistent MA, in the majority of pets, is due to renal failure.

 

Although bacteria was not showing up I ask for another 3 week course of Baytril, just in case. Also during the time of the Oct 30th appointment the vet wanted me to put him on a prescription diet. I chose instead to find an appopriate diet and home cook his food, knowing the quality would be much higher. Up to that time he had always been fed a Lamb & Rice kibble and I changed him to a home-cooked diet mainly consisting of ground beef and brown rice. In Mar 2009 I decided to try another change to his diet. I had remembered reading that allergies sometimes can be the cause of urinary incontinence. I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

I honestly do not know how much longer Nadir could have lasted if I had not made this change in his diet when I finally did. I can only imagine how raw and inflamed his bladder was by the time I tried this diet change. I just regret that he spent all that time in pain as I wasted time expecting antibiotics to fix his problem.

I am not advising those whose lab results show bacteria to not give antibiotics, but if they don't, think about a quick elimination test diet. If that is the problem you will see results very quickly. If you don't see results then go for the antibiotics. Sometimes they are warranted in cases where bacteria are not showing up, as in the case of George, but what if they are like Nadir and you waste all that time when you could possibly have had a quick resolution to the problem.

 

Edited March 2, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[GeorgeofNE]

I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

Not to hijack your thread Lauren, but today, after FIVE WEEKS dry, George had another accident, and honestly? I am ready to totally surrender--and then I saw THIS.

I admit to be extremely skeptical, but...WHY NOT? I've tried everything else!!!

Judy, do you happen to remember WHERE you read that about incontinence and grain?

I'm really beyond depressed right this particular minute (I'll get over it).

How did you determine it was RICE if you switched to grain free with a different protein? I am not doubting you--just curious.

OK. Off to order some grain free kibble!

[gracegirl]

I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

Not to hijack your thread Lauren, but today, after FIVE WEEKS dry, George had another accident, and honestly? I am ready to totally surrender--and then I saw THIS.

 

Hi Susan. No worries about hijacking. If you can get info to help George, then by all means!

 

Questions for you though Miss Suzan...does George show a bacterial infection on a culture? Did you do x-rays and an ultrasounds to rule out tumors or stones? I was trying to remember what you've done with him so far. I think I'll go back and do a search in the GT archives too.

 

I hope you can find something to help the little buddy!

[4My2Greys]

I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

Not to hijack your thread Lauren, but today, after FIVE WEEKS dry, George had another accident, and honestly? I am ready to totally surrender--and then I saw THIS.

I admit to be extremely skeptical, but...WHY NOT? I've tried everything else!!!

Judy, do you happen to remember WHERE you read that about incontinence and grain?

I'm really beyond depressed right this particular minute (I'll get over it).

How did you determine it was RICE if you switched to grain free with a different protein? I am not doubting you--just curious.

OK. Off to order some grain free kibble!

 

Susan, I know how frustrated you must be for George, poor guy and poor you. You have worked so hard trying to fix him.

 

I read about allergies possibly being a cause for incontinence in a chapter on urinary tract health in this book I had bought.

 

Complete Holistic Dog Book by Jan Alligretti & Katy Sommers, D.V.M.

 

The reason I immediately thought grains was because there has been discussion on whether or not dogs should consume grains, but I’m not really arguing that, because I have learned that they can also develop a sensitivity or allergy to things that are considered good for them. The reason I knew it was rice was because this was the one constant between his kibble he had been eating, Canidae Lamb & Rice and the home-cooked diet of Ground Beef & Rice while his incontinence persisted.

 

I’ve also learned over the years that there are a few other things that will bring on bouts of incontinence for him. I ordered Tuna Tooters especially made with garbanzo bean flour instead of rice flour for him. When I started giving him the treats the accidents started occurring again, stopped the treats the accidents stopped. It only took a few treats also to bring it on. I ran a few trials to see if it was the case and sure enough every time I gave him those treats the accidents would start happening, stopped the treats again and no more accidents. Recently he started having problems again after all this time. I think I have isolated the culprit because the accidents have stopped, but don’t want to say until I’ve given it more time, because frankly this one really puzzles me.

 

He has been on Taste of the Wild Pacific Stream now for about a year and is doing well on it.

 

Now I will say that I don’t know if this would be George’s problem considering that he has gone so long without an accident, I would think that if it was something he was eating the problem would have persisted. With Nadir it was everyday of flooding accidents with no improvements. Of course this makes it all that more frustrating, because I know you want an answer to his problem and there is nothing I would like better than for you than to put this problem behind you.

 

 

[GeorgeofNE]

I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

Not to hijack your thread Lauren, but today, after FIVE WEEKS dry, George had another accident, and honestly? I am ready to totally surrender--and then I saw THIS.

 

Hi Susan. No worries about hijacking. If you can get info to help George, then by all means!

 

Questions for you though Miss Suzan...does George show a bacterial infection on a culture? Did you do x-rays and an ultrasounds to rule out tumors or stones? I was trying to remember what you've done with him so far. I think I'll go back and do a search in the GT archives too.

 

I hope you can find something to help the little buddy!

 

 

 

Never one single speck of bacteria. At least 5 urinalysis, 3 cultures. X-rays. Ultrasound. All indicate a 100% healthy, fit dog. Whose urinary issue responds to antibiotics...

 

Sigh.

 

Thanks Judy. The only consistent pattern with George is that his pattern is inconsistent. And for those reading who I KNOW are thinking, "Oh, the poor dog just can't hold it. Why doesn't she hire a dog walker?" I DID have a dog walker for a while. It made no difference. He'd have gone before they got there, or he'd go after they left and before I got home. It's not a matter of length of time when he does go. It's like a urge comes over him--which is why I agreed to the ultrasound. It was one of those "good news/bad news" results--no evidence of stones or structural abnormalities, no thickening of the bladder walls to indicate possible issues, NOTHING. Cute aside: the vet said she's never had a dog laying on his back (they use a U shaped, foam lined form to get the dog on his back and hold him that way) wagging his tail while he was ultrasounded!

Edited March 2, 2011 by GeorgeofNE

[Guest mcsheltie]

I have something related going on right now. Lira needs to stay with a sitter who won't do raw so I am transitioning her back to kibble. Last time she was at the sitter she developed a UTI. We treated her, it took a while, but she hasn't had any problems since.

 

After about five days of transitioning to kibble she is peeing in the house and having episodes of incontinence. I didn't take her to the vet this time. I switched her back to raw and the peeing has stopped. Last night I asked a nutritionist I work with about it. Below is her response:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Julie, I can't explain it either, but some of my clients have experienced the exact same circumstances as well. Not necessarily with homemade raw, but with kibble vs. less processed products (frozen, dehydrated, freeze dried), or also home cooked diets.

 

The only thing I can speculate on, is that there's something used in the kibble that might have an influence on the hormone balance in the body, or an ingredient with a strong diuretic effect.

 

I've also seen it with one female dog who couldn't tolerate turnips in her homecooked diet, the problem resolved as soon as we replaced them with a different veggie.

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Interesting....?

[Guest 2dogs4cats]

I then switched him Timberwolf Organics Ocean Blue. This was a grain-free food with a different protein. In less than a week the accidents stopped completely. Turns out the whole time his problem was a sensitivity to rice.

Not to hijack your thread Lauren, but today, after FIVE WEEKS dry, George had another accident, and honestly? I am ready to totally surrender--and then I saw THIS.

I admit to be extremely skeptical, but...WHY NOT? I've tried everything else!!!

Judy, do you happen to remember WHERE you read that about incontinence and grain?

I'm really beyond depressed right this particular minute (I'll get over it).

How did you determine it was RICE if you switched to grain free with a different protein? I am not doubting you--just curious.

OK. Off to order some grain free kibble!

 

I don't know whay your labs look like, but I would say if the urine PH is high, grains or veggies could be the problem and a change in diet could be the answer, however if the SPG is the problem, it's probably is something else.

[krissn333]

This is somewhat random, but lends support to the idea that allergies can cause peeing issues...my friend's male is the type of dog that would NEVER pee in the house, in fact he's mortified if it becomes a necessity to do it (sick, couldn't hold it if she got stuck at work, whatever). He started having accidents in the house, his bloodwork and UA were normal. Turns out he was having an issue with peanut butter - she was using it to give him his fish oil caplet in the morning. Once she stopped the peanut butter, his peeing stopped. Whenever we boarded him at the kennel, we had to put a special note on his crate not to give him PB or any PB flavored things. Poor guy - such a sad greyhound life when one is allergic to PB!

[Batmom]

Last night I asked a nutritionist I work with about it. Below is her response:

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

Julie, I can't explain it either, but some of my clients have experienced the exact same circumstances as well. Not necessarily with homemade raw, but with kibble vs. less processed products (frozen, dehydrated, freeze dried), or also home cooked diets.

 

The only thing I can speculate on, is that there's something used in the kibble that might have an influence on the hormone balance in the body, or an ingredient with a strong diuretic effect.

 

 

This appears to be the problem we've had as well. I suspect it has to do with a vitamin or mineral that's well-supplied in commercial food and that the individual dog doesn't eliminate well.

 

I do know that in my dogs, it's had nothing to do with "grains."

 

If you suspect a dietary contribution to the problem, you're best off going to a true elimination diet -- one protein and nothing else for 12 weeks, then very slowly add the other things you want to feed. Or I should say, a *fake* elimination diet. If the dog doesn't have true allergy signs, you don't have to pick a *novel* protein. Just pick a protein that you can get easily and that you can feed so as to provide adequate calories for the dog.

 

Nothing else really means nothing else. No supplements such as fish oil or glucosamine, no treats other than those consisting solely of the protein you pick (no added salt or oils) ..... Antibiotics or other prescription meds are fine, and we have always continued to give heartworm, flea/tick meds, etc. without a problem.

[GeorgeofNE]

Dear Batmom: if you meant ME re: the food issue--I don't actually think George's problem has anything to do with food--but I've been curious about grain free for a long time anyway, and what the heck! The dog has a cast iron tummy and LOVES to eat, so switching it up after a few years on one food can't be too bad an idea!

 

He would not have stopped peeiing for nearly two years if his problem was food related, agree?

 

You know I respect your opinion a great deal. Or if you didn't know that, you do now!

[Batmom]

No, didn't mean you -- you just brought it up . A lot of folks are hot on the grain-free thing, and I just wanted to point out that a dog could have issues with 1000 other things in the diet.

 

It isn't *likely* that George's problems now are food-related ... but you never know. Both my dogs that have seemed to have food-related pee issues didn't have those issues for some years.

 

You and George should have fun shopping and eating, anyways, and if you hit on something that helps, so much the better!

[GeorgeofNE]

No, didn't mean you -- you just brought it up . A lot of folks are hot on the grain-free thing, and I just wanted to point out that a dog could have issues with 1000 other things in the diet.

 

It isn't *likely* that George's problems now are food-related ... but you never know. Both my dogs that have seemed to have food-related pee issues didn't have those issues for some years.

 

You and George should have fun shopping and eating, anyways, and if you hit on something that helps, so much the better!

 

Thanks!

 

If there is one thing George enjoys more than walkies, it's eating!

[gracegirl]

I should have the results of the culture today...I've hoped for bacteria with as much passion as I am today. The other ABs that I got on Tuesday are not working yet.

 

In other news, my boyfriend's Airedale has twice now snapped and gone after Fenway this week. Once on Tuesday, once last night. Both times the dogs were in the kitchen/dining room. Both time's Jackson started barking and grwoling in a very mean and angry way. It scared me, and Ryan had to grab Jackson and pull him away before he calmed down. I grabbed Fenny and led him the other direction, we seprated the dogs for a while, and then let them all sleep in the bedroom with us at night with no issues.

 

Can Jackson tell Fen is not well? I was supposed to watch Jackson this weekend while Ryan is away but instead we will be boarding him. I jsut don't trust him.

[Guest oldNELLIE]

Dear Batmom: if you meant ME re: the food issue--I don't actually think George's problem has anything to do with food--but I've been curious about grain free for a long time anyway, and what the heck! The dog has a cast iron tummy and LOVES to eat, so switching it up after a few years on one food can't be too bad an idea!

 

He would not have stopped peeiing for nearly two years if his problem was food related, agree?

 

You know I respect your opinion a great deal. Or if you didn't know that, you do now!

 

Sorry again to totally hijack here...(I see that you aren't) but I wouldn't disregard food allergies even though you have seen improvements at some times and not at others. I have been personally dealing with abnormal allergy reactions my whole life and until recently no doctor would even consider the idea that my problems were allergy related. I now realize that there is often not straight connection between the allergen and the symptom. For example, I've struggled with eczema my whole life and was told again and again that because it improved in the summer it could NOT be an allergy. I now know that I have been allergic to eggs all this time, and 6 months of not eating them and my symptoms are 100% gone. The theory now is that the allergen was "confusing" my immune system and triggering an autoimmune reaction. At times my immune system was "stronger" and less effected by the allergy and the symptoms diminished.

 

I bring this up because you say that George gets better after a round of AB's and this makes sense to me. If things are being cleared up that wouldn't normally cause symptoms, perhaps the allergy is less opportunistic. Or maybe it is an odd combination of factors that you could never pin point by observation alone.

 

Anyway...I would try the true elimination diet mentioned above. Like you said, you've tried everything else...why not? And that's my thoughts on the subject!

[gracegirl]

Dangit! No growth on Fenway's urine culture. The antibiotics are not helping, he's been on them since Tuesday. What are my next steps?

 

They are going to keep the culture going/growing over the weekend. The vet will call me on Monday to discuss options.

[GeorgeofNE]

Did they test him for diabetes?

 

 

I suppose you might have to go for the ultrasound next??

 

I'm so sorry.

 

 

[gracegirl]

Did they test him for diabetes?

 

 

I suppose you might have to go for the ultrasound next??

 

I'm so sorry.

 

 

 

 

Nope. Good idea...I had all but fogotten about that possibility. I'll call the tech back this afternoon and can hopefully discuss. I can get him in tomorrow for that test if necessary.

 

Just curious (only if you are willing to share)...how much was George's ultrasound?