Busderpuddle Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Ruby has been on Colmicalm for several weeks now but it seems to be making things worse for her. The first week she seemed much calmer (I know that it needs to get to a therapeutic level) but her S.A. is now getting worse. She now circles her bed about 20 times before laying down and will sometimes do that 10 times in a row. She also occasionally stands up and stares at the back door which is new. She is now trying to bite her way out of her crate and has bent some of the bars. She is only in there a few days a week for a few minutes to a few hours. We have tried the alone training again but it is not helping at all. She destroys her bedding and is drenched in drool when I get home. She has even more destructive behavior when left out of her crate so that is out. She does love her crate at night and voluntarily puts herself in there at bedtime. Her appetite is still really good. I am taking her to the vet tomorrow to get some lab work done and discuss these new behaviors. Does anyone have any other suggestions or questions that I should make sure and ask the vet ? Thanks. Quote Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedFawnMom Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Oh no, I'm sorry, I know how hard SA can be. What about trying Reconcile (fluoxetine, aka Prozac) instead? It's a different class of drug and might work better for her. You gave the Clomicalm a good try; if it's not helping after several weeks, I'd give up on it, but talk to the vet (I think you have to taper off slowly). The alone training WILL help but it takes a LONG time and you have to do it in really, really small baby steps. You said you're leaving her for a few hours sometimes - can you work up to that? The idea of alone training is to leave her for only as long as she handle before getting anxious and slowly stretching out the time. For weeks all we could do is walk toward the door before she got up from her kong. Then we could touch the door knob. Then turn the door knob...then open the door but not step out...etc etc. It's frustrating and awful but will help if you stick with it. I took her everywhere with me those first weeks or dropped her off at my mom's or doggie daycare or had someone stay with her. How long have you had her? If she's in danger of hurting herself and you have to leave her, maybe ask the vet if you can give a reaaaaly small dose of an anti-anxiety drug. I wouldn't rely on it as a solution long-term, but if it's unsafe to leave her alone, it might be a good idea as you work on the alone training. Just a thought - I know lots of people are against anti-anxiety meds. Good luck! Quote Always missing our angel Lucy, a four year osteo survivor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurenbiz Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Hello! My Bernie is on Clomipramine, which I believe is the same as Clomicalm. (Clomicalm is just the brand name, I'm pretty sure.) We started him Jan. 24th, and he was on 25mg the first two weeks. Just recently, the vet has bumped him up to 50mg. His anxiety issues have basically gotten better. The trembling, panting, and howling as we're simply getting ready for our day - even 30 or 45 minutes before we leave - have completely disappeared. He just lays around the house now! Occasionally, we are still coming home to find some urine spots and/or poop after we've left him alone. (His urinating/defecating in the house were his big SA issue - not as much destruction.) He did escape the crate and bend some bars during the second week we had him on Clomipramine. He's never done this before! We found blood inside the crate after this, and he had cuts all over his body. I said - Nope, if he's capable of this, I'm not putting him in there again. So, we got rid of the crate. Since that issue during his second week on the meds, he hasn't had any problems and he has gotten better. What dosage is your dog on? My guesses are: * The mg is too high, too soon (we had 25mg for the first two weeks) * This type of anti-depressant just isn't working, and you may want to try a different one * Clomipramine patients may just have a weird regression at two weeks, like Bernie did (I have no clue if this is true - but if your regression is at, say, two weeks now, and I saw that happen with Bernie, this is at least a guess!) Good luck, and keep us posted! Quote Lauren the Human, along with Justin the Human, Kay the Cat and Bernie the Greyhound! (Registered Barney Koppe, 10/30/2006) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmom Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 She is now trying to bite her way out of her crate and has bent some of the bars. This is extremely dangerous behavior. I strongly recommend that she not be crated any longer. What does she do when left out of the crate? If those behaviors are dangerous to her as well, you may want to look into a doggie daycare while you continue to work on alone training. Quote Star aka Starz Ovation (Ronco x Oneco Maggie*, litter #48538), Coco aka Low Key (Kiowa Mon Manny x Party Hardy, litter # 59881), and mom in IllinoisWe miss Reko Batman (Trouper Zeke x Marque Louisiana), 11/15/95-6/29/06, Rocco the thistledown whippet, 04/29/93-10/14/08, Reko Zema (Mo Kick x Reko Princess), 8/16/98-4/18/10, the most beautiful girl in the whole USA, my good egg Joseph aka Won by a Nose (Oneco Cufflink x Buy Back), 09/22/2003-03/01/2013, and our gentle sweet Gidget (Digitizer, Dodgem by Design x Sobe Mulberry), 1/29/2006-11/22/2014, gone much too soon. Never forgetting CJC's Buckshot, 1/2/07-10/25/10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dante2zoe Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 My whippet had severe SA when we got him. He bent the bars on a crate, too. Needless to say, it is still folded up and in the garage. Colmicalm didn't help him, either. We switched him to generic Prozac and it helped. Reconcile is the doggie version - it is the chewable form. It helped enough to take the edge off so we could work on alone training. I have had him for 3 years and he is off the meds and doing well, SA-wise. (He has a whole host of other issues that are not related.) Having another sighthound really helped him, too. Quote Cindy with Miss Fancypants, Paris Bueller, Zeke, and Angus Dante (Dg's Boyd), Zoe (In a While), Brady (Devilish Effect), Goose (BG Shotgun), Maverick (BG ShoMe), Maggie (All Trades Jax), Sherman (LNB Herman Bad) and Indy (BYB whippet) forever in my heart The flame that burns the brightest, burns the fastest and leaves the biggest shadow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Swifthounds Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Clomipramine and a few others we tried never worked for my Comet, who had serious anxiety, but not SA specifically. He had wind and thunder phobias. I eventually bagged the chemicals which all made him more sluggish and more anxiety ridden because he was more confused/disoriented and changed his diet and supplemented with lots of B vitamins. The B vitamins helped tremendously, as did lots of exercise, but the results when I switched to raw were dramatic and I went from being close to losing him 6 years ago to having him remarkably healthy for just over age 13. The behaviors your dog is exhibiting are quite dangerous. IF they are new while on the meds, I would discuss with the vet the proper way to wean him from it and try a different approach. If anxiety leads to injury, the anxiety will only be reinforced - and you'll have an injured dog. Medication can be a life-saving transition-maker while you're working behaviorally, but it's never a cure and never without side effects. The ones you're having aren't ones that would make me comfortable in continuing this medication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeh2o Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I would get rid of the crate, too. If she is destructive in the house when you leave, then muzzle her. The muzzle had/has a strangely calming effect on Carl, much like a security blanket. I'd talk to the vet, too. Maybe this isn't the right medication for her, or, maybe she needs valium to start out her day without you, when it wears off she will be used to you having been gone already. Carl was on a combination of clomipramine (same thing as clomicalm, but not repackaged for animals with a jacked up price) and valium. I literally had to give him a valium about 1/2 hour before I'd leave because he had such a hard time when I would leave. The need for valium for me to even be able to leave was very short lived, fortunately. Quote Sunsands Doodles: Doodles aka Claire, Bella Run Softly: Softy aka Bowie (the Diamond Dog) Missing my beautiful boy Sunsands Carl 2.25.2003 - 4.1.2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busderpuddle Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Thanks everyone for the tips and advice. We see the vet this afternoon. She is on 60 mg of the Colmicalm and I think it is just not the right medicine for her. We have done the alone training several times now and it just isn't working no matter how slowly we do it. We have already tried Xanax which the vet originally recommended along with the OTC calming meds and the diffuser and sprays. We have had her for 7 months and she is perfect when we are home with her. When she is out of her crate she has destroyed the window shades, chewed on the table (she is NOT a chewer either), ripped the curtains down from the patio window and destroyed the bathroom when we baby gated her in there. We tried the muzzle and came home to it being twisted sideways on her head and a small cut on her nose. She loves to be outside and we do leave her out there if it is above 45 degrees and there seems to be no problems with that. We have thought about building her a heated doghouse for when we have to leave but we promised we wouldn't leave her outside. It is very frustrating but if we can't find a solution soon I don't know what to do. We can't afford daycare for her and we are new to the area so have no relatives who can watch her. Will let you know what the vet has to say later today. Edited February 17, 2011 by Busderpuddle Quote Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest momofevie Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Try connecting with a local grey rescue group, too. They may be able to offer advice and/or support. Good luck! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurenbiz Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 We can't afford daycare for her and we are new to the area so have no relatives who can watch her. Will let you know what the vet has to say later today. Hey, you are not alone in your predicament! Our closest doggie daycare is in Madison, WI - which is 45 min. the wrong direction from my work. A doggie daycare facility is not feasible for us, and neither is dropping Bernie off at someone's house, or letting someone come into our house when we aren't home. Somebody told us, "Take Bernie to his grandparents' house during the day!" Since Justin and I aren't originally from WI, we don't really have any relatives near us. (And Bernie's grandparents are 8 hours away!) Quote Lauren the Human, along with Justin the Human, Kay the Cat and Bernie the Greyhound! (Registered Barney Koppe, 10/30/2006) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubcitypam Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Barkley the terriorist mix came to me after being basically being abandoned in a house for 4 months. He was a total nutcase. Melatonin (1.5 grams -- he is about 25 pounds) and a dropper of Rescue Remedy when I go to work have worked with him -- or maybe he has just figured out I am coming back. Cheap and worth a shot. Edited February 17, 2011 by Hubcitypam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Busderpuddle Posted February 18, 2011 Author Share Posted February 18, 2011 We just got back from the vet and he agreed that her behavior is escalating. He wants me to wean her off the Colmicalm and then start Prozac. He also suggested a behaviorist but then told me that he has had several people tell him they charge around $800, and he even felt this was ridiculous. It is out of the question financially for us at this point. My adoption group also suggested a behaviorist. We tried Melatonin and Rescue Remedy early on with no relief. Hoping the Prozac works. The vet said he has had a few cases where they have actually had to tranquilize dogs when the owners needed to be away. I don't want to resort to that !!! He was kind and helpful. Quote Karen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ctgreylover Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 can you baby gate in a "safe" room? have you tried a dap? I am so sorry you all are going thru this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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