Kidney Numbers

[Guest zoolaine]

Luna - non-grey- has had kidney and UTI problems for awhile now but recently has really slowed down. About a week and a half ago I could tell she wasn't feeling well so I took her in to the vet and wow her numbers were really high. BUN was 208 (normal 30???) and creatinine was 12 (normal 1.7???). I was leaving the next day to go for interviews in Plano so Luna stayed at a friends and went in every day for IV fluids. After a few days of fluids she started feeling much better (and numbers improved to 180 and 10). But everyone at the vets office still gives the impression she is going to die any minute but she seems to be doing pretty well. She is eating some and is still sassy. To complicate everything I am likely moving to Texas in the next week or two and I really don't know what to do with poor Luna, So what are the highest numbers you have seen?

 

 

This is her famous photo with baby Zali! Oh, she put up with a lot from Zali.

 

 

[greyhead]

No advice, Holli, but I'm very sorry to hear this.

 

I've managed two cats with chronic renal failure (CRF), but I think they're easier to manage than dogs because it's easier for them to absorb sub-q fluids. Some recent-ish threads in H&M discussed it, but I don't remember whose. They said that the volume of fluids needed for a dog's size tends to slosh around and settle in the legs and uncomfortable places. It's just easier for smaller animals to deal with that.

 

How are you planning to transport the dogs to Texas?

[tbhounds]

Not to be a Debbie downer but those numbers are really super high. The in house blood machines don't read a bun higher than 130 without diluting the sample. SQ fluids really aren't going to be effective in a dog of her size. Honestly, to give the best shot she should be admitted to the hospital were they can run iv fluids for a few days then repeat her numbers to see if she responded to treatment.. She should also be taking pepcid.

I assume she had a prior work up to diagnose her kidney disease-- lepto panel, radiographs, ultrasound.......?

Edited February 15, 2011 by tbhounds

[Guest june]

No advice, just wanted to say how sorry I am that you and your beautiful Luna are going through this.

june

[Guest Swifthounds]

No real advice, just

 

If you wanted/needed to do IV fluids and she'll leave a catheter alone, you can do those at home. Sometimes that's less stressful for all.

[Guest zoolaine]

No advice, Holli, but I'm very sorry to hear this.

 

I've managed two cats with chronic renal failure (CRF), but I think they're easier to manage than dogs because it's easier for them to absorb sub-q fluids. Some recent-ish threads in H&M discussed it, but I don't remember whose. They said that the volume of fluids needed for a dog's size tends to slosh around and settle in the legs and uncomfortable places. It's just easier for smaller animals to deal with that.

 

How are you planning to transport the dogs to Texas?

 

I was planning on taking down Luna, Briley and 2 greyhounds in my Honda Element and then later flying back up and driving down a small U-Haul and the other 2 greys. The problem is I can't close on a new house until they have 30 days paystubs - so probably mid-April. I was going to take Luna and Briley to my cousins in Houston since I lived with her for 2 years while going to school and that is when I got them. But with Luna sick she has to stay with me. So I'm not sure now. And I can do the U-pack for the same price as a U-Haul.

 

I guess the numbers being so high is why everyone at the vets acts like she only has a few days. They said usually with numbers that high the dogs are feeling and acting much worse. Although I hate to and I will miss her terribly, I am ok with sending her to the bridge I know she misses Sunny, who passed away last June form cancer. They were actual litter mates. They are going to have an awesome reunion! I'll just take it one day at a time and let her tell me when she is ready.

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

It's not always just the BUN and Creatinine you cave to worry about either. Did they do a urinalysis?

 

My foster whippet, Willie, had a BUN of 83 and Creat 2.9, but he also had lots of protein in his urine... the vets didn't like the blood numbers but they were even more concerned when they saw the protein. They told me he didn't have long. We were hoping with sub-q fluids and pepcid that he would have a couple months, but we had to euthanize him a week later. As the toxins build up in their blood, their GI system gets quite distressed. Willie developed profuse diarrhea from the toxins in his blood which just made him even more dehydrated which made him even sicker. In the end he definitely told me when it was time.

 

I'm so sorry you're both going through this =(

[TinyMityMo]

Those numbers are extremely high. In our (human) lab we call the doc when a BUN hits 100 as that is considered a crisis level. Good luck.

[greyhead]

I guess the numbers being so high is why everyone at the vets acts like she only has a few days. They said usually with numbers that high the dogs are feeling and acting much worse.

Yeah, one of my CRF cats had such high numbers at one point that vet said he wasn't expected to live. And that happened a couple times. he was one of those, like Luna, who managed to feel and do better than his numbers said he should. But I had nothing to do but take care of him at that point. And when I moved him, it was a simple (though long) move in a car, nothing as complicated as what you're going to have to do. So I guess I'm saying maybe it could be done if your situation were totally different than it is, but it's good you're okay with sending her to the bridge.

Edited February 15, 2011 by greyhead

[Guest zoolaine]

I really just want Luna to have some wonderful last days, no matter how many that may be.

[NeylasMom]

I was just reading over some info on renal disease in cats and read a quote from a vet that said "Treat the symptoms, not the numbers" or something along those lines. Point being, 5 animals with the same numbers could all be completely different in how sick they feel so I would just go on how Luna is feeling and what you are capable of managing in terms of treating her at home.

[greyhead]

I really just want Luna to have some wonderful last days, no matter how many that may be.

I do too, hon.

 

What Neyla's Mom wrote is true, but especially true of cats, I believe. I don't have much experience with dogs, but what I have heard suggests that it's a harder road in general. I'll be seeing one of our vets in about an hour and will ask her about this and get back to you.

{{{Holli}}} You're such a good dog mom! And I'm really happy for you that you've apparently got a job in a place you wanted to move to anyway! Even though it means I'll never realize my fantasy of meeting your pack in Yakima.

 

 

ETA: Just checked with that vet and she said my memory is correct, that dogs have a lot harder time than cats when it comes to transcending bad numbers the way I've seen cats sometimes do.

Edited February 15, 2011 by greyhead

[DesiRayMom]

Many prayers for you & beautiful Luna.

[Guest avadogner]

Zoolaine,

I am really sorry about your Luna. Her labs are in critical ranges and are very dangerous. Do you know if she has protein in her urine, her GFR and what her electrolyte levels are? Kidney failure is really rough. The kidneys not only filter toxins, they regulate your blood pressure and stimulate red blood cell production. Is she eating and has your vet switched her to food for dogs with kidney disease? Luna's kidneys will be futher stressed by protein in her diet. The good news is that dialyis isn't that bad and will give you more time with her. Doing dialysis at home would less stressful for her but you would have to learn how to access her dialysis catheter. I've haven't had a pet go through this but have personal experience with it. The best advise I can offer is educate yourself about kidney function and research your options. Also doing a nephrology veternarian seach for Texas. I can't imagine how difficult watching your dog go through this. I will add you and Luna to my prayers.

-ava and augie's mum

 

 

[Guest zoolaine]

I'm not sure what her other numbers are. She did have a really bad UTI in November/December and was on high antibiotics for 6 weeks, if I remember correctly. She

has been on a kidney diet for 8 months or so but she won't eat it anymore. I am just feeding her what she will eat and trying to make her happy. Dinner tonight was a few

licks of an ice cream cone, part of a hamburger, some ham and turkey and a little

tripe. I really just want to make her last days good. It is just hard to imagine she

may be gone in a few days. Do they really detoriate that quickly?

[Guest d0ggiem0mma]

I'm so sorry =(

 

In my experience, and from what my vet told me, once they stop eating well they tend to go downhill quickly. Even though he's only interested in eating meat, all that protein puts extra stress on his kidneys. Like I said with my foster dog, Willie, we lost him very quickly. I truly hope your kiddo feels well enough for a little while longer but at this point and with those labs I would feed him whatever he wants and make his last days special.

[NeylasMom]

I'm not sure what her other numbers are. She did have a really bad UTI in November/December and was on high antibiotics for 6 weeks, if I remember correctly. She

has been on a kidney diet for 8 months or so but she won't eat it anymore. I am just feeding her what she will eat and trying to make her happy. Dinner tonight was a few

licks of an ice cream cone, part of a hamburger, some ham and turkey and a little

tripe. I really just want to make her last days good. It is just hard to imagine she

may be gone in a few days. Do they really detoriate that quickly?

What AB was she on? I wonder if she doesn't have an infection in his kidneys? My understanding is that Baytril is the appropriate AB for that. If her numbers are that high and you are feeling like you might lose her soon, it may not make sense to spend the money and/or put her through the stress of an abdominal ultrasound, but if you know she had an infection previously, trying a course of Baytril and seeing if there's any improvement might not be a bad idea. The downside to that is that 1) Baytril is expensive (so you might not want to purchase the full course until you have a chance to see if it's helping) and 2) it can upset the stomach, which could make hte eating issues worse. To help with that, you could do 2 things - carafate 2-3x/day on an empty stomach (has to be 2 hrs away from food or meds) and pepcid about 30 minutes before you feed. My understanding is pepcid is pretty standard when dealing with kidney disease so you probably want to give that anyway.

 

It may be a shot in the dark, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Edited February 16, 2011 by NeylasMom

[Guest zoolaine]

I think it was Baytril she was on for the 6 weeks. Don't remember exactly how long she was on it but it was for quite awhile. And you are correct in that they did not know if it was a bladder infection or if it was a kidney infection. Her urine was checked after the antibiotics and it was good. But her BUN pre-infection was 85 and 10 days ago was 208 (somewhere over 200)

 

Luna does still love her ham! I know all the sodium can't be good for her kidneys but she likes it and will eat it so that all that matters now. It makes me laugh because Sunny went through a couple periods when he had cancer when he would only eat ham or ham sandwiches, preferably from Arbys. And they are litter mates.

Edited February 16, 2011 by zoolaine

[Figma]

I'm so sorry to hear about Luna. We *think* we are dealing with renal issues with our 12-year old Grey. His blood work wasn't bad, actually, but there is protein in his urine. Vet prescribed the Pepcid and told me to try Enalapril to try and keep the pressure down in the kidneys. I haven't started that yet because I have had to run in and out and hate to give him a new med and not be here *just in case*. I contacted Dr. Dodds and we have been communicating There was possibly a thyroid issue but she doesn't think so per his blood work, breed and age. She told me specifically NO Prescription diet!!! She actually suggested Taste of the Wild, Eagle Senior or Wellness and to use canned of the same brand. Said the protein, and I quote, " the protein content of grain-free foods will always be higher (because they don’t have the bulk protein being wheat or corn or soy – cheaper protein sources) but you feed less of it to maintain caloric needs". Our Grey has lost so much weight. I started him on the Taste of the Wild and he ate very well for about 2 or 3 days, Today, he hasn't eaten again. He's a tough dog when it comes to diet because he has always been picky even on a good day. We did the labs, x-rays, ultrasounds, etc. I did have him checked for TBD also, which was negative. Some *feeling* is just telling me we are dealing with something other then kidney issues here, just not showing up.

Good luck with Luna. I think I would probably be making the same decisions.

[Batmom]

If the dog is in mid- or late-stage kidney disease, a reduced protein diet is best. There are some prescription kidney diets that do a very good job. One can also make a prescription-type diet at home. Neither will be high protein like grain-free commercial foods; those types of diets are fine for early kidney impairment where little or no diet modification is needed. As the disease advances, tho, the kidneys can't process protein correctly, which leads to unfortunate things like spilling protein in the urine instead of absorbing it and/or poisonous end-products in the blood (high BUN). The lower protein diets reduce those problems while still providing adequate calories.

 

There is a lot of hype on the internet about reduced protein not being necessary in more advanced kidney disease. That is dangerously incorrect.

 

In a case like Luna's you do have to balance what it would be *better* for the dog to eat against what the dog *will* eat. Hugs and hopes your girl has many happy days with you yet.

[Guest avadogner]

Enalapril is an ACE inhibitor which has low levels of side effects. Some Drs believe in class effect and prescribe the generic for Enalapril. The most up to date info is that class effect is not true and Altace (Ramapril in gereric form) has the best renal protective effects. I don't really know if vets write for dogs but it may be worth mentioning to your vet. I've been on it for about 15 yrs now and my tranpslant Dr said it helped extend the time I had for my kidney. It comes in 2.5, 5 and 10 mg. The 2.5 may be an option. I agree with letting your hound eat what it can at this point. When the kidney has failed, nausea sets in and eating ANYTHING becomes a challenge. I can't tolerate any foods that have a smell to them and can't imagine how that is for dogs with their enhanced sense of smell. I am so sorry your both are going through this. I will keep sending prayers and happy thoughts your way!

-ava and augie's mum

Edited February 17, 2011 by avadogner

[GreyTzu]

Canine Kidney info.