Does Crate Size Really Matter?

[45MPHK9]

why are you crating this dog?

[jenn8]

Here comes the anti-crating troll.

 

Ditch the awful thing and housetrain your dog instead. It is much easier than all this stuff you are going through. The crate is not working and could actually be the cause of all your problems.

 

Also, if you set up a camera or tape recorder, you can get a better idea of how his day really goes.

 

Jenn

 

ETA: Oh, I see someone beat me to it.

Edited January 13, 2011 by jenn8

[GeorgeofNE]

That's a long time. Possible to come home at lunch or have a mid-day dog walker for a couple months?

 

Most dogs *can* learn to wait that long but they need a chance to settle in and get used to your schedule first. I would vote for the mid-day dog walker (or turn-outer if you have a fence) for a month or two. Then, if he's been accident free for that time, you could try gradually pushing back the time that the dog walker comes.

 

I usually don't leave mine for more than @ 6 hours without a chance to potty, but plenty of people do and seldom come home to accidents.

 

Good luck!

 

What Batmom said.

 

And he needs a long walk before you stick him in a crate all day. I have no choice but to leave my dog alone for the day too, but I do get up extra early to walk him EVERY DAY no matter what.

[robinw]

I agree. Try ditching the crate and see if you can find a friend to walk him during the day. I have a semi retired neighbour walk my guys for $25/week.

[Guest racergirl435]

I appreciate everyone's suggestions but a couple of you aren't listening to me. I CANNOT walk Ike right now. Our streets have too much snow built up next to them and I'm sorry but I refuse to walk my dogs ON/IN the street. Again, we live on a VERY busy main 2-way road. The speed limit is 30 but people often go 45 or more just to beat the stop light 6 houses down. If I could walk them on the shoulder, I would walk them. But right now there is no shoulder. Please don't judge me or think negatively of me because I can't or don't walk my dog every day, like some of you do. It's just not doable for me (right now). It is more important to me for my dogs to be safe than to risk getting hit by a car. It's happened here too.

 

On the crate issue...I can't really argue you there. But again...how about instead of coming off sounding like I'm a monster for crating my dog, how about offering suggestions instead. "Why are you crating this dog?" makes me feel like I'm performing some sort of cruel and unusual punishment. We love our dogs (and cats) like they are our children. Don't make it sound like an accusation. It puts me on the defensive and just makes me not want to ask for help here. Then where would I and Ike be? I come here for the support and friendship. Not to be treated like an animal abuser. That may not be what you intend with some of your comments, but that's how it makes me feel. (Yes, I'm ultra sensitive when it comes to my animals.)

 

I am going to put Ike in the kitchen today and see how he does. Hopefully he will pee and/or poop for me before I leave for work this morning. If not, he can't do any damage in the kitchen unless he decides the table looks yummy. I really don't think he has a UTI because he doesn't show any of the typical signs of having one. I will play that by ear today and if he's not any better tonight with the pooh, I will take him to the vet in the morning.

 

I do plan on talking to the neighbors this weekend to see if they would be willing to come over and let the dogs out. Hopefully they will agree. I trust them implicitl so I wouldn't have any problem giving them a set of keys to the house and the alarm code.

 

Sheila, we cannot extend the fence the way the house is currently designed. However, we will be doing some renovations this year and one of the things on my list is a door from what is now the sun porch to the back yard. So hopefully before the next winter we will have a door to the back yard and no leash will be required.

 

Thanks again to those who offered suggestions. Have a nice day.

 

Jess

[45MPHK9]

Never mind.

Edited January 14, 2011 by 45MPHK9

[Batmom]

If he's having frequent or unusual (just went out, etc.) pee accidents, it is always worth checking for a UTI. At least 75% of the time, my dogs with UTIs haven't had "traditional" symptoms.

[Guest Greyt_dog_lover]

Hey Jess, as far as a fence goes, what about a "snow fence"? You can pick them up at any hardware store and they are 5' tall. Then you get the green metal angle-iron temporary fence posts and use a "frost pin" (imagine a spike of steel used to punch a hole in frozen ground) to set the post. Connect the snow fence everywhere and anywhere you need. I am not sure of your configuration to know if this is an option, but I foster broken leg hounds and use this setup year round in my back yard to split off the yard so that the broken leg hounds don't have a lot of room to run around and aggravate their injuries.

 

I am pro-crating so personally what I would do would be to work on "alone training" with your hound instead of ditching the crate. I would feed all meals in the crate, as well as when you leave throw a kong into the crate with kibble inside capped with peanut butter. Look around here for alone training, as well as if you have the book "Retired Racing Greyhounds For Dummies" has a lot of information that will help. I feel that a hound that is crate trained is safer for everyone involved, especially when you have multiple hounds (3 or more). If you read around here, generally the people that are anti-crating tend to have 1 or 2 hounds, different story when you have a full pack. Don't take those comments personally, the crating issue is a REAL hot topic around here that will never be decided. Crating is YOUR decision and don't ever let anyone persuade you from what you feel is best for YOUR hound.

 

As far as the vet recommendation, it cant hurt to get a checkup, I am not sure when the last time your pup was seen by a vet. Our group recommends that within 2 weeks of adoption you should get a checkup from your vet to establish a baseline for future visits.

 

Chad

[Guest racergirl435]

Honestly, the only reason we crate Ike is because it is what my husband prefers. If it were my decision alone, he wouldn't be crated ever. We came to a compromise and decided to crate him during the day when we're not home because in the end we both felt it would be the best thing for Ike and the other animals, at least for the first couple of months. However, given the current situation obviously something needs to be done differently. That is why I posted here. My DH still thinks a smaller crate would be better. I disagree and think other methods should be tried first.

 

To that end, I truly do appreciate everyone's suggestions and there are quite a few I hadn't thought of and there are some that I will definitely look into. Like Chad's fence suggestion. Our house is basically a square and the fence butts up to one corner of it. To take the dogs out, we have to go down a set of 4 steps to the gate. Any suggestions as to how I could tie the snow fence to the step railing? It would need to be something that could easily be attached and removed. Especially if I have a neighbor coming over to let the dogs out during the day. I do like that idea. I could take the snow fence from the railing to the fence post on the outside of the gate. I think it could work if I can figure out some sort of hinge or hook for the railing. The other challenge is that from the steps to the gate is concrete sidewalk and paved driveway. Can't really stake that. DH would have a fit. lol Oh...I could get some cinder blocks and stake it that way. Would that work?

 

Batmom....he doesn't have frequent accidents. I don't think once a day is frequent. :shrug: After thinking about it last night and this morning the times he's peed in his crate is when he doesn't pee before I leave for work. And he hasn't pooped in his crate since the accident on December 30th. This morning I took the dogs out and he had a very nice firm poop. He didn't pee in the yard so I thought I would try walking him on the 20 or so yards of sidewalk in front of our house. Granted, it's only as wide as our snow blower. It took 3 rounds, but he peed for me. The right amount for the amount of water he had this morning. I gave him lots of praise for doing both. I wasn't sure last night if I would leave the dogs in the kitchen today, but after Ike's success this morning, I decided to go ahead and do that. There is nothing in there he can hurt and if he does have an accident, which I don't think he will, it won't hurt anything. I'm sure my DH won't be crazy about it but I felt it was the thing to do.

 

If he shows any signs of not feeling well tonight, I will take him to his vet in the morning. He came off the track in October last year and had a full workup then by the vet he will be seeing for the rest of his life. The only thing he tested positive for was Babesia and he was treated for that and fully recovered while with his foster mom. He had also seen the vet just prior to our adoption of him and had no health issues. Not to say that he couldn't develop any since coming to us. Just that he was healthy upon his arrival and has shown no signs of illness since.

 

Anyway, if I'm overly sensitive regarding Ike it is only because I feel we give him the best love and care we possibly can and don't like being made to feel that we don't. I don't mean to offend anyone or piss anyone off, though I know sometimes it is inevitable.

 

Thanks again,

Jess

[robinw]

Until I installed a sliding glass door to the backyard, I had the same fence problem as you. I like the snow fence suggestion. I wonder if it would be possible to attach the snow fence with something like heavy duty velcro or hooks.

[Guest LindsaySF]

A vet check can not hurt, always worth it to rule that out.

 

You say Ike did not have any accidents the days you came home at lunch. I assume he also did not have any accidents when you were home for the holidays and on the "weekend schedule"? If so, this does not sound like a crating issue or a separation anxiety issue. Getting a smaller crate or ditching the crate probably won't help. I personally think he just can not hold it for 10 hours. Especially if you found a large amount of urine in the crate, that points to not being able to hold it.

 

Keep in mind, at the track the dogs never go 10 hours between turn-outs during the day when the kennel is active and people are coming and going. It's only at night, with the lights off, etc, that they have to go a longer time. I'm not sure how many hours it is at night, I'm sure it varies by kennel.

 

You also mention that Ike was in a foster home. How long was he in the foster home? What was the foster home's schedule like? It sounds like Ike is having a difficult time adjusting to your schedule, especially if the schedule keeps changing (as it does during holiday time).

 

I would continue with the lunch time turnouts for now. Over time, you can gradually extend the amount of time he is left alone, possibly eliminating the lunch time turn out altogether. But IMO it is too soon for that now. Good luck.

 

 

 

~Lindsay~

[Guest racergirl435]

A vet check can not hurt, always worth it to rule that out.

 

You say Ike did not have any accidents the days you came home at lunch. I assume he also did not have any accidents when you were home for the holidays and on the "weekend schedule"? If so, this does not sound like a crating issue or a separation anxiety issue. Getting a smaller crate or ditching the crate probably won't help. I personally think he just can not hold it for 10 hours. Especially if you found a large amount of urine in the crate, that points to not being able to hold it.

 

That is correct. When home with someone or checked on, he does not have any accidents. When he eliminates prior to me leaving for work, he does not have any accidents. I didn't think it was a crating issue either, which was why I have been disagreeing with my husband about getting a smaller crate. Only the 1 time did my DH come home and find a large amount of urine. The days I've come home to pee in the crate it hasn't been a large amount (MAYBE 1/4 cup) because I try to limit his water intake in the morning.

 

Keep in mind, at the track the dogs never go 10 hours between turn-outs during the day when the kennel is active and people are coming and going. It's only at night, with the lights off, etc, that they have to go a longer time. I'm not sure how many hours it is at night, I'm sure it varies by kennel.

 

You also mention that Ike was in a foster home. How long was he in the foster home? What was the foster home's schedule like? It sounds like Ike is having a difficult time adjusting to your schedule, especially if the schedule keeps changing (as it does during holiday time).

 

Yeah, I know. That's why on the weekend we first had him and talked about what the plan would be for the work week I had told DH I would come home on my lunch hour and he didn't want me to because he felt Ike would learn the schedule faster/better if we just basically threw him into it. :shrug: It's easy for him to say when I'm usually the one who gets home first and who has to clean up any mess there might be.

 

Ike was in the foster home for a little over 2 months. He was lucky because she would try to go home every day between the morning and evening, though it was never at the same time every day and sometimes not at all because she works at a vet's office and sometimes can't make it home during the day. She did tell us though on days she was not able to get home in the 2 months she had him, he only had a couple accidents.

 

Ike was really kind of thrown into our schedule so it is understandable that he is having a tough time adjusting to it. Especially during the holiday season and because even that little bit of schedule got screwed up. I think he will do better now that we are on a regular schedule. Even on the weekends, I still get up at 4:45am to take them out for their morning meal so as to not disrupt their schedule.

 

I would continue with the lunch time turnouts for now. Over time, you can gradually extend the amount of time he is left alone, possibly eliminating the lunch time turn out altogether. But IMO it is too soon for that now. Good luck.

 

~Lindsay~

 

That's the plan. Hopefully the neighbors will agree and be able to come over and take them out during the week. Especially as Bailey (our lab) gets older (she just turned 11). I agree. I just wish my work schedule was a little more flexible so I didn't have to rush to go home at lunch. Thanks Lindsay!

 

The other challenge with crating him, whether it's for 1/2 hour or 9 hours is when we come home and he hears us, he is screaming bloody murder. Right now it's not an issue because all the windows are closed but in the summer when the windows are open the neighbors are going to think we're murdering him or something. Any ideas on how to get him to stop screaming or is that just a fact of life? That is another thing Seymour never did. He hardly ever spoke in the 4 years we had him.

 

Jess

[Burpdog]

because I try to limit his water intake in the morning.

 

 

Please don't. He'll only tank up when the opportunity arises.

 

It sounds like the issue is, as you know, is that he won't pee/won't pee enough in the morning. How big is the yard? Do you stay out there with him?

 

The large crate is fine and a smaller crate will not help and could possibly hurt. Please explain to your DH that he is peeing in the crate because he needs to, not because he wants to.

 

The other challenge with crating him, whether it's for 1/2 hour or 9 hours is when we come home and he hears us, he is screaming bloody murder. Right now it's not an issue because all the windows are closed but in the summer when the windows are open the neighbors are going to think we're murdering him or something. Any ideas on how to get him to stop screaming or is that just a fact of life? That is another thing Seymour never did. He hardly ever spoke in the 4 years we had him.

 

 

Welcome to my world :lol For some reason, I have always had at least one barker or screamer in the bunch. I could never sneak in my house....

[turbotaina]

Just something to tell your husband - at the track, greyhounds are all housed in the same sized crates. If you have a small female, she's going to be in the same sized crate as a large male. She won't mess her crate just because it's bigger. That's an issue for puppies, more or less, not for an adult, already crate trained dog.

 

Do you have anywhere you can drive that would be safe to walk the pups? It reallly can make a huge difference if you can swing it. And I recommend a vet check, too, just in case.

 

Good luck!

[Guest racergirl435]

because I try to limit his water intake in the morning.

 

 

Please don't. He'll only tank up when the opportunity arises.

 

I just meant that I don't let him stand there and gulp the whole bowl of water down. It's a big bowl.

 

It sounds like the issue is, as you know, is that he won't pee/won't pee enough in the morning. How big is the yard? Do you stay out there with him?

 

Yep...that's it exactly. We have a huge yard. Probably 20 square yards, give or take a yard. When we first got him, he wouldn't do anything if you were standing there watching him, so I'd let him in the yard and then hide around the corner. I did that until he became more comfortable with my presence. Now he actually seems to prefer my presence there and if I walk away he just stands at the gate. I was surprised that he peed on lead since he's never been walked before though.

 

The large crate is fine and a smaller crate will not help and could possibly hurt. Please explain to your DH that he is peeing in the crate because he needs to, not because he wants to.

 

I have. I told him the general consensus here is that a smaller crate wouldn't change anything other than the fact that I'd be cleaning up 2 messes instead of 1.

 

The other challenge with crating him, whether it's for 1/2 hour or 9 hours is when we come home and he hears us, he is screaming bloody murder. Right now it's not an issue because all the windows are closed but in the summer when the windows are open the neighbors are going to think we're murdering him or something. Any ideas on how to get him to stop screaming or is that just a fact of life? That is another thing Seymour never did. He hardly ever spoke in the 4 years we had him.

 

 

Welcome to my world :lol For some reason, I have always had at least one barker or screamer in the bunch. I could never sneak in my house....

 

lol Our lab, Bailey, used to bark when we'd come home but it was barking not screaming bloody murder so it was different. Now that she doesn't hear much, she doesn't talk at all and I really miss the silence. lol Really though the only time Ike makes any noise is when we come home or when he's barking at the deer. He's a silly boy.

 

Just something to tell your husband - at the track, greyhounds are all housed in the same sized crates. If you have a small female, she's going to be in the same sized crate as a large male. She won't mess her crate just because it's bigger. That's an issue for puppies, more or less, not for an adult, already crate trained dog.

 

Heck, I didn't even know that so that is useful information. Thanks!

 

Do you have anywhere you can drive that would be safe to walk the pups? It reallly can make a huge difference if you can swing it. And I recommend a vet check, too, just in case.

 

Good luck!

 

I do...I'm such a dumba**...I don't know why I didn't think of that. We have a park with trails a block away. And I get up at 4:45am year-round just so when the weather is nice I have time to walk the dogs in the morning. I will start doing that. Duh. I guess I was just so, for lack of a better word, frustrated that that never even occurred to me. Geez. Thank you!

[Guest Wasserbuffel]

As for the screaming when you get home, you would be best to completely ignore it. Just come in and don't make eye contact or pay any attention to him unitl he's quiet. Praise him for even a few moments of quiet at first, then work up to longer periods. If he's a food hound, treats help too and pairing the word quiet with him being calm and still is good too. My girl used to howl when we got home because she was so excited to see us, but after a week or so of no attention until she was quiet, she learned and now she's often still on her back when we open the crate door.

 

I don't understand how ditching the crate would help a dog who can't hold their bladder to hold it longer. Wouldn't they just find another spot in the house to mess?

[Guest sheila]

You know, my girlfriend here mentioned the possibility of a UTI as well. I've not noticed him licking himself at all, if any, when we're home but who knows what he's doing during the day. Anyway, I suppose that is a possibility. And it would make sense. When I said stench, I meant more to our lab's nose than mine/ours. It doesn't smell bad, per say. It just smells like pee. But I do notice that his urine is pretty much always very golden in color. I will call his vet tomorrow morning and see if I can drop him off on my way home. They're right downtown where I work so that would be easy.

 

Just to mention that you don't have to take your dog into the vet to check for UTI. If you can catch a 'first of the morning' sample you should be able just to drop that off at the vets. Heck with my vet one of the techs will come out and test it right there in the lobby while I wait and if it's positive I can get the meds right then and there. When they do it this way I don't even get charged for an office visit.

How do you catch pee? The way I've done it on a male is to use any clean plastic container that has a lid and stick it under him when he starts to pee. For a female I've used a foil pie tin to slide under her. You don't have to catch the whole thing, just enough that they can put a paper strip into it.

Edited January 14, 2011 by sheila

[Guest LindsaySF]

I have a screamer too. I have resigned myself to that fact. As Ike settles in more he will probably tone it down a bit. But he might just be a vocal dog in general, that might not change. I would tell/warn your neighbors about the Greyhound screaming and what it means, so they don't call the cops on you.

[Guest racergirl435]

You know, my girlfriend here mentioned the possibility of a UTI as well. I've not noticed him licking himself at all, if any, when we're home but who knows what he's doing during the day. Anyway, I suppose that is a possibility. And it would make sense. When I said stench, I meant more to our lab's nose than mine/ours. It doesn't smell bad, per say. It just smells like pee. But I do notice that his urine is pretty much always very golden in color. I will call his vet tomorrow morning and see if I can drop him off on my way home. They're right downtown where I work so that would be easy.

 

Just to mention that you don't have to take your dog into the vet to check for UTI. If you can catch a 'first of the morning' sample you should be able just to drop that off at the vets. Heck with my vet one of the techs will come out and test it right there in the lobby while I wait and if it's positive I can get the meds right then and there. When they do it this way I don't even get charged for an office visit.

How do you catch pee? The way I've done it on a male is to use any clean plastic container that has a lid and stick it under him when he starts to pee. For a female I've used a foil pie tin to slide under her. You don't have to catch the whole thing, just enough that they can put a paper strip into it.

 

Well that's a great idea. I might just do that. Thanks Sheila!

 

As for the screaming when you get home, you would be best to completely ignore it. Just come in and don't make eye contact or pay any attention to him unitl he's quiet. Praise him for even a few moments of quiet at first, then work up to longer periods. If he's a food hound, treats help too and pairing the word quiet with him being calm and still is good too. My girl used to howl when we got home because she was so excited to see us, but after a week or so of no attention until she was quiet, she learned and now she's often still on her back when we open the crate door.

 

I don't understand how ditching the crate would help a dog who can't hold their bladder to hold it longer. Wouldn't they just find another spot in the house to mess?

 

Well I've not done the ignore part, but I have done the "quiet" and praise when he's quiet. Usually after a couple tries he will be quiet enough for me to let him out of his crate. He's pretty hard headed. lol I will try the ignore tactic next week.

[Guest racergirl435]

I came home to another puddle of pee so I will definitely see if I can catch some urine tomorrow and take it in to the vet. At least it was in the kitchen and I didn't have to spend half an hour cleaning up the blanket and crate and wood floor (because it splashes out of the crate, yuck!). So in that respect it was less stressful. When I came through the kitchen door he looked so guilty and like he was stealing himself for me to yell at him. :shrug: I've never yelled at him for that. I just went about cleaning it up before DH got home and before the dogs started tramping through it.

 

And you're right Jayne...removing the crate from the situation isn't solving or doesn't solve the problem but it does make it less stressful for me when I come home. I told DH when he got home that I am either going to start coming home on my lunch hour and/or having someone come over. I also explained to him that Ike just might not be able to hold it for that long...ever. It is what it is and we will love him regardless. It's just an adjustment. We made adjustments with Seymour, we can certainly do it with Ike. At least with him gated in the kitchen he can't hurt anything by peeing on the crappy linoleum floor.

 

Lindsay, that's a smart idea. I wish I had a video camera so I could see a) how often or when he howls and how long it takes before he's peeing.

 

Off to bed for me...tomorrow's going to be a long day.

[jenn8]

A regular tape recorder would do the same thing.

 

Jenn

[jenn8]

 

I don't understand how ditching the crate would help a dog who can't hold their bladder to hold it longer. Wouldn't they just find another spot in the house to mess?

Ditching the crate would make the dog happier. House training him would teach him not to go in the spot. It's a win/win situation. :-)

 

If you know your dog cannot hold it for 10 hours, it does not matter where you leave him. But I don't think this is something you can really know until after your dog learns what you want him to do.

 

I have always had the best success by housetraining from the get go, in the house (not a crate), and letting the dogs be wherever they are most comfortable.

 

10 hours on a regular basis would worry me too much though. I would probably search the globe to find that one trustworthy letter-outer person.

 

I am not trying to be critical. Just hoping to help.

 

Jenn

[Guest racergirl435]

Thanks Jenn...I appreciate it. And I totally relate to where you're coming from. He was housetrained when he came to us and he has not had an accident in the main house since the time he attempted to mark in the dining room. You can leave him in the house for hours on end and he's fine. But obviously 10 hours is too much for him. We will figure this out and get to a point where he can be successful. It's obviously stressful for him too and we just want him to be happy.

 

Jess

 

A regular tape recorder would do the same thing.

 

Jenn

 

What's a tape recorder? We don't have one in the house anymore. You really think I could hear him peeing on a tape recorder? I wonder if I could set my iPod up (it's go a video camera) in the bedroom. Hmm...I'll have to give that a try.

[4My2Greys]

In my personal opinion 10 hours is too long to be crated. This is not meant as a criticism, I just think housetraining is much better. I too have a 10 hr work day because of a long commute and have been successful with my 5 and numerous fosters adjusting to my schedule. I don't foster any longer, but when I did, they were usually accident free within the first week. Nadir did go through a period of severe incontinence for about 6 months 2 years ago which turned out to be allergy related. I understand though this is rare. My point in mentioning it is that once I figured out the problem and made adjustments to his diet the incontinence stopped and he went back to being able to hold his urine.

I think having him checked for a UTI is a good thing and as Sheila mentioned you just need a sample. When I was bringing in urine samples for Nadir's problem I was told to get the first catch of the day because it will be more concentrated with the little buggies if he has UTI.

Something you might want to do a little checking into is the use of D-Mannose, a simple sugar, to treat UTIs. It has been shown to be very, very successful in treating UTIs caused by E-Coli, which are the cause of 95% of UTIs. It has even been shown to be successful in those that have become antibiotic resistant.

 

Edited because my big thumbs caused me to post before I was finished.

Edited January 15, 2011 by 4My2Greys

[Guest racergirl435]

Well to top off this problem, I just found out this morning that my Grandfather passed away late last night so my DH and I will likely be flying to Tucson for the services and to be with my family. So we'll be disrupting Ike's schedule yet again. Never a dull moment.