High Kidney Values

[PatricksMom]

So from last June to this June, Patrick's kidney values have gotten worse. My vet is aware that greyhound values are different, but thinks these are too high. What do you think?

 

BUM; 22-->36

Creatin: 1.9-->2.6

 

Urine Specific Gravity is good, she said (10.39 I think but I might have written that one down wrong).

 

What may have triggered the change is that to get his arthritis under better control, I switched him from Diamond Lamb and Rice (23% protein) to Evo Herring and Fish (42% protein).

 

I'd like to keep him on a food as high in Omega 3's as possible and preferably corn and soy free but lower in protein, any suggestions?

 

eta: The diamond is corn and soy free, but doesn't have much in the way of Omega 3's.

Edited July 1, 2010 by PatricksMom

[Burpdog]

How are his teeth? Did you culture the urine? Is he on any NSAIDs?

[CaliforniaGreys]

I'm not sure how to read it, are you saying the BUN is 36 and the Creat is 2.6?

If so, that's a bit high.

 

As for foods containing the Omega-3, I have always been told that food does not have enough to have any benefit.

 

When I've dealt with high Creat and a high BUN, I've lowered the protein and the phosphorus in the diet.

 

It's just my opinion, but 42% is too high

[PatricksMom]

Thanks for answering so quickly.

 

His teeth need to be done, they're getting done next week--vet is again predicting no extractions and isn't worried about the anesthesia being a problem given the protocal she's worked out with him.

 

He took 2 weeks of Meloxicam about a month ago, none since then.

 

Yes, BUN is 36, Cretin is 2.6

 

If it matters, he has a well managed thyroid condition, is 11 years old, and when his arthritis isn't flaring up, he's very healthy and active. He also takes cosequine.

 

I'm inclined to put him back on the Diamond Lamb and Rice, increase his fish oil supplements a bit since his stomach seems fine with them, and then retest in a month. The evo has an excellent omega 3 to omega 6 ratio, which is why we started using it, but we don't really know if it was that or the 2 weeks of meloxicam that got his massive arthritis flareup under control.

[CaliforniaGreys]

I am a believer in NSAID's when they're needed and I think they're are extremely helpful in getting arthritis under control.

But in this case I don't think I would use them.

 

Handling arthritis without them is no picnic, Burpdog can advise about suppliments, I've never used them, but acupuncture has helped for us as has Tramadol for pain, however it has no anti inflammatory properties.

[JohnF]

As always when we have kidney dogs we treat the dog and not the numbers. They are at best an indication of the biochemistry at that particular point in time. I wouldn't recommend feeding high protien and I would not recommend giving Meloxicam or similar drugs as they can adversely affect the blood supply. I would be very wary of any non-life-saving anaesthesia too.

Please see the kidney info at www.dogaware.com. You may also greatly benefit from joining the K9Kidney Group on Yahoo.com. I've lost 3 over the years to the disease and it's still as hit and miss as ever because every dog reacts quite differently. Good luck.

Edited July 1, 2010 by JohnF

[GeorgeofNE]

Rather than attempt to get his Omega fatty acids from FOOD, just give him the supplements in oil or gel cap form! Then feed him whatever works.

 

George has high Creatine; always has, always will. As long as the urine is normal, and the BUN is within greyhound normal, Dr. Couto told me not to worry about it.

 

Not sure what the connection is between a high protein dog food and arthritis? The Omegas will help with that to an extent, but depending on the severity, only NSAIDs will really help.

[PatricksMom]

Thanks all.

 

To keep filling in stuff I've forgotten, he's at the maximum effective dose of tramadol, hence the attempted food change on top of the fish oil, but obviously we need to reverse that. He does tend to dehydrate himself at the vets, and can be picky about drinking there, so maybe that affected the creatin?

 

I guess we have a good plan in place, and I'll have to wait a month or so until we can recheck levels--and I'll ask them to do the urine sample as soon as we get there to minimize the dehydration issue.

 

Really, the nervous mom here is also trying to figure out how freaked out to be, and how to get effective pain relief with mimimal risk.

 

Not sure what the connection is between a high protein dog food and arthritis? The Omegas will help with that to an extent, but depending on the severity, only NSAIDs will really help.

 

The vet was pushing Science Diet's joint formula to get more omega 3s than you can get just by supplementing, I thought the evo was a good compromise since I don't like what's in Science Diet, but all the high omega 3 foods have high protein levels (probably because they take out grain). In hindsight, I probably over-reacted because he was in so much pain all of a sudden, and I was hoping to not use an NSAID permanently.

[CaliforniaGreys]

George has high Creatine; always has, always will. As long as the urine is normal, and the BUN is within greyhound normal, Dr. Couto told me not to worry about it.

 

True, but in this case, his BUN is high

[tbhounds]

42% protein in the diet is too high. That high a protein can really make the kidney's work overtime. Gotta admit--not a big fan of the grainfree kibble--too high in protein to be fed as a soul diet.

[Trudy]

Gotta admit--not a big fan of the grainfree kibble--too high in protein to be fed as a soul diet.

 

Not all of them. Taste of the Wild Salmon is only 25% protein.

[Guest Mom2Shiloh]

I am a believer in NSAID's when they're needed and I think they're are extremely helpful in getting arthritis under control.

But in this case I don't think I would use them.

 

Handling arthritis without them is no picnic, Burpdog can advise about suppliments, I've never used them, but acupuncture has helped for us as has Tramadol for pain, however it has no anti inflammatory properties.

 

 

S.O.D. and Boswellia, available from California Vet Supply-- http://www.calvetsupply.com/ , works better than a NSAID in my opinion, is given with food, is not expensive, does not lose efficacy when given over time and has a made a HUGE difference for my kids that need it. I swear by it. It doesn't interfere with anything else you can give and, when given in meals doesn't hurt the tummy.

 

Agree that the Omega 3 should be given separately. Agree that 42% protein is Way too high; good food but not grain free -- I'm having good luck with Precise Foundation; grain free (for Silver post cancer) I'm using BeforeGrain (by Merrick) Chicken which is 33% protein (not as low as the Precise, but way better than 42%).

 

Sorry for rattling this off like a round at target practice but I'm sort of running out the door for errands and I couldn't resist commenting.

 

JMO but hope it helps

[KF_in_Georgia]

I guess we have a good plan in place, and I'll have to wait a month or so until we can recheck levels--and I'll ask them to do the urine sample as soon as we get there to minimize the dehydration issue.

 

You can get a sample yourself, first thing in the morning, before you go to the vet. Just refrigerate the sample until you're ready to leave. My vet's office collects samples in those disposable plastic food containers. I've got to do this for Sam's next test (he'll stay home, and I'll just take the sample to the vet). "They" say to get a sample first thing in the morning, but "midstream" to avoid bacteria. (Quoting various web sites, here.)

 

I'm just glad my Sam's such a cooperative hound. "Dear Sam, Please pee in mom's cup..." Yeah.

 

ETA: Worst-case scenario: Your vet will want to collect a fresh sample. But if Patrick's nervous-dehydration is an issue, getting the sample at home might be very helpful. For Sam, the stress of the car ride is the deal breaker; he loves the vet.

Edited July 1, 2010 by KF_in_Georgia

[MaryJane]

I would seriously reconsider having any surgery at this point until you recheck the kidney values. Someone earlier in the thread also mentioned this and I concur ....

 

You probably also want to check the urine protein levels and it's better if you have a "first morning specimen" to do this. When you get the specimen, you also want to make sure that your dog doesn't pee overnight (it dilutes the sample) so that you are getting about 8 hours worth.

 

ETA -- later you can buy the urine protein dipsticks and check the urine each morning yourself -- it really helps in getting control over what might help in the diet and what might be causing an "overload".

Edited July 1, 2010 by MaryJane

[Guest Swifthounds]

It's not just the amount of protein, but the fact that it's a dry matter. I'm a fan of higher protein 24% plus, and high quality (ie meat), but 42% is pretty high. It's so high, in fact, I wonder what gets it to that point.