No One Knows What's Wrong...

[galgrey]

I'm not sure which type it was, but it was done in-house at my vet's... so probably the snap? It didn't take too long for the result... maybe like 15 minutes or so? I think it tested for a few different TBDs, but again, I'm not sure. It would have been all grouped in that one test. I guess I was a little naive and assumed the my vet knew what was best for Charlie, and unfortunately, I think I was wrong. They also never did a retest because they said it shows up for about 2 years after the treatment, so they were just going to recheck next year.

 

They never did the second or third rounds... He was treated about 2 months apart and only for three to five days each time. I spoke with my vet and she said we can definitely try doing the full treatment (Like we should have done months ago)...

 

I didn't bring in a stool sample, but I did bring in photos that we took (when I called and asked if they wanted a stool sample, they said no) but they wouldn't look at the photos, either. At that time, he seemed fine, so I guess they just thought the seeds were no big deal.

 

All he has been eating for the past 3 to 5 months is the Royal Canin hypoallergenic hp food. I tried getting him some hypoallergenic treats (I think they were Hills) but they didn't seems to agree with him so I stopped after 2 or so. The seeds looked almost like bird seed, though.

 

 

I talked with someone else and they think it's cancer...hemangiosarcoma (sp?). Is that really my best bet at this point? I'm so scared for him...

 

I'm not a doctor, but none of these symptoms sound like hemangio. There are three types that I'm aware of, skin, which obviously you see on the skin, cardio which would cause shortness of breath and tiredness, and splenic which you usually don't find out until it's too late. My Brindle had splenic. There are many others on this board that have had the other two as well.

While it could still be cancer, it just doesn't sound like hemangio. An ultrasound will be able to rule out a lot.

 

I'm not a doctor either, but this doesn't sound like what I experienced with hemangiosarcoma either. I've lost two dogs to it and neither of them had any of these symptoms. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I'm sorry for your doggies

 

I got the Panacur for Charlie today, so he took his first dose tonight... he actually wanted to play, which he hasn't done in over a week. I'm sure it wasn't the Panacur bc he had just taken it, but it was so nice to see him run around!

[Anne]

Here they are.. *Warning: not for the faint of heart*

 

stool

seeds

 

Honestly, I was just so happy that he was finally doing better that I didn't make a big deal about it... although now I wish I had...

I looked at your pics (while I was eating my dinner no less! I have a cast iron stomach for the most part!) and I gotta tell you that's like nothing I've ever seen come out of a dog or a person before, not without them eating something goofy. (kids do that, dogs do that)

Looks like no kind of worm (dead, alive or egg of worm) I've ever seen. Did you take a knife and open those things and try to see what was inside of them? I've had a foster hound puke up tons of plastic, I've had a great dane poop a sock, I've seen my poodle poop out rice that wasn't cooked and lots of other interesting stuff, but nothing ever looked like that!

I hope someone else see's something I'm not seeing!!

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I looked at your pics (while I was eating my dinner no less! I have a cast iron stomach for the most part!) and I gotta tell you that's like nothing I've ever seen come out of a dog or a person before, not without them eating something goofy. (kids do that, dogs do that)

Looks like no kind of worm (dead, alive or egg of worm) I've ever seen. Did you take a knife and open those things and try to see what was inside of them? I've had a foster hound puke up tons of plastic, I've had a great dane poop a sock, I've seen my poodle poop out rice that wasn't cooked and lots of other interesting stuff, but nothing ever looked like that!

I hope someone else see's something I'm not seeing!!

 

Haha, sorry, I tried to warn! We did break one open (The one on the left in the photo), and it was just a soft center... no worm larvae or anything. Maybe he did just eat them before we got him...

 

Yeah, Charlie's pooped sock pieces before... he would never eat the whole thing though, just the toes and heel.

[Guest Samantha]

We once had a grey that ate a corn cob, and when he pooped they came out whole and looked a lot like whats in your poop & he was still pooping whole ones weeks later. Just a suggestion anyway.

 

Hope you baby is feeling better soon & you get all this sorted x

[TwiggysMom]

I can’t comment on most of his issues, but from the “seeds” photo, the whole one on the right looks almost like a lentil. Given that dogs wouldn’t digest these very well (especially if ingested whole/uncooked), do you suppose he could have gotten into a bag of beans before you adopted him?

[Guest Stripeyfan]

I'm sorry you're going through this! Kelly has been having GI issues since Jan, triggered by a massive worm infestation and finally diagnosed as suspected IBD (we decided not to scope or have biopsies done as he's responded extremely well to his meds, which he's still on), so I know how worrying this must be for you. Has Charlie lost weight? Has he had blood tests to check his pancreas and to see if he has absorption issues with his small intestine? We now have Kelly on slippery elm capsules 3X a day too to help soothe his insides, and also use enzyme capsules - he doesn't have pancreas issues but they mean his gut has a little less work to do to digest his food, which helps things.

 

As for the seeds, I have no experience of anything like this, but they do look a bit like lentils! I really hope you can get to the bottom of this soon, sending lots of good thoughts.

[NeylasMom]

Did he come to you straight off of the track, or from a foster home? The odds that he ate something inappropriate seem much higher if he didn't come straight from a kennel, at least given the ideas for what those seed things are. The foster I had that came with something in his stomach straight off the track had eaten training gloves, much more track appropriate than a bag of lentils.

 

The corn cob idea is an interesting one. A cob could definitely cause a partial blockage, leading to these symptoms.

 

Is he still on flagyl? I might consider stopping it if I were you - if the highest suspects are eating something inappropriate or a parasite, you wouldn't want to give flagyl as it slows down the movement in the intestinal tract. Of course, if it is IBD then that would probably be the wrong move. I'm just thinking out loud at this point.

[Batmom]

Flagyl doesn't slow down intestinal motility -- it's an antibiotic/antiinflammatory. The drugs you'd want to stay away from are immodium and IIRC reglan.

[racindog]

I have a livestock background and when I looked at the seed photo I said immediately well thats corn! It looks like the kind in horse and cow feed- the kind that is still on the cob and dried-the kind in corn cribs. I don't think dogs can digest corn so it is logical they would pass. The inside of a kernal is white and pastey just like you found. Looks exactly like the dried corn on the dried corn cobs that are stored in corn cribs or added to animal feed and are common on farms. Not sure about the round thing.

Edited July 2, 2010 by racindog

[NeylasMom]

Flagyl doesn't slow down intestinal motility -- it's an antibiotic/antiinflammatory. The drugs you'd want to stay away from are immodium and IIRC reglan.

Duh, sorry. I haven't had coffee yet - you're right, I was thinking of Immodium.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Has Charlie lost weight? Has he had blood tests to check his pancreas and to see if he has absorption issues with his small intestine? We now have Kelly on slippery elm capsules 3X a day too to help soothe his insides, and also use enzyme capsules - he doesn't have pancreas issues but they mean his gut has a little less work to do to digest his food, which helps things.

 

Yes, before this latest episode started he was at 75 lbs and nows he's down to 65... We've had 2 separate blood tests done (a few months apart) and his pancreas was fine on both of them... in fact, everything in his bloodwork was fine.

 

What is an enzyme capsule? Can you get it at a Vitamin store?

 

 

Did he come to you straight off of the track, or from a foster home? The odds that he ate something inappropriate seem much higher if he didn't come straight from a kennel, at least given the ideas for what those seed things are. The foster I had that came with something in his stomach straight off the track had eaten training gloves, much more track appropriate than a bag of lentils.

 

He was in a foster home in a wooded area. I definitely think the seeds came from before we got him... I just worry that maybe one of them is poisonous to dogs and creating this reaction.

 

I have a livestock background and when I looked at the seed photo I said immediately well thats corn! It looks like the kind in horse and cow feed- the kind that is still on the cob and dried-the kind in corn cribs. I don't think dogs can digest corn so it is logical they would pass. The inside of a kernal is white and pastey just like you found. Looks exactly like the dried corn on the dried corn cobs that are stored in corn cribs or added to animal feed and are common on farms. Not sure about the round thing.

 

A lot of people are saying corn/lentils for the one, so I think at least we're onto something here. Could ingesting something that they can't break down create these symptoms? I feel like these seeds have to be related in some way to what he's going through, since they appeared right before he got sick...

Edited July 2, 2010 by CharlieHorse

[DaisyDoodle]

Can you contact the foster home? I would ask if they feed birds or squirrels, or if he got into their pantry. I was sure when you first said seeds that it was going to look like rice and be some sort of worm, but no, those do look like seeds.

 

I wonder what kind of imaging technique or scoping would allow you to see if there are foreign/inedible things in his system?

[Batmom]

How long ago since he was in the foster home and/or had x-rays?

 

Wonder if he could've swallowed a small bean-bag and it sat around in his guts and finally broke open. Ai yi yi. I'd want to see if there was anything visible left.

 

Imaging is a weird science. Sometimes you can see unexpected things on x-ray better than on ultrasound, sometimes not.

[NeylasMom]

Can you contact the foster home? I would ask if they feed birds or squirrels, or if he got into their pantry. I was sure when you first said seeds that it was going to look like rice and be some sort of worm, but no, those do look like seeds.

 

I wonder what kind of imaging technique or scoping would allow you to see if there are foreign/inedible things in his system?

 

 

How long ago since he was in the foster home and/or had x-rays?

 

Wonder if he could've swallowed a small bean-bag and it sat around in his guts and finally broke open. Ai yi yi. I'd want to see if there was anything visible left.

 

Imaging is a weird science. Sometimes you can see unexpected things on x-ray better than on ultrasound, sometimes not.

Yeah, this is basically what I've been wondering is what's the best way to spot this sort of thing, especially something like the bean bag scenario where maybe all that's left is something material. When we suspected something similar for my foster, we did regular x-rays first and nothing showed up. Then my vet did barium x-rays. The barium was given and x-rays were taken, then he was kept overnight and re-xrayed in the morning. The idea was that something material would absorb the barium and be visible in the morning, whereas the rest would have passed through. For the latter, we could have taken him home instead of leaving him overnight, but he was pretty sick and we felt it would be better if he stayed and got fluids. If we hadn't done htat, it wouldn't have been cheap, but it also wouldn't have been terribly expensive. Probably not less than an ultra-sound though. BTW, nothing turned up on x-rays - we think he only had a bug afterall.

 

This has become quite the mystery and it seems we're all on teh case.

[Guest CharlieHorse]

Here are images of his x-rays he had a few months ago... don't know if this will help, but I'm sure it won't hurt!

x-ray 1

x-ray 2

x-ray 3

 

I guess all the little round things in his stomach are his kibble, not seeds or anything.

 

At the pet hospital they said they didn't notice anything strange other than that his intestines were inflamed, but they weren't sure why...

They said ultrasound would show cloth and other materials, along with a lot of other information, so I guess that's the next step if this Panacur doesn't help

 

Also, I've kept in touch with the foster family, and they've said that they don't think he got into anything there, so maybe beforehand?

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Yes, before this latest episode started he was at 75 lbs and nows he's down to 65... We've had 2 separate blood tests done (a few months apart) and his pancreas was fine on both of them... in fact, everything in his bloodwork was fine.

 

What is an enzyme capsule? Can you get it at a Vitamin store?

 

I'm in the UK so not sure if Tryplase is available over there - it's a capsule you break open and sprinkle the contents of over the food. One capsule will digest 100g food and you can give up to 5 a day. They're non-prescription, so you can get them on pet meds websites, but I get them through the vet so I can claim back for them on our pet insurance. I would consult with your vet about giving anything like this first, though, in case it's not suitable, as obviously it depends on the individual dog.

 

Sending more healing thoughts!

[Guest CharlieHorse]

I just wanted to add an update in here, so hopefully everyone that helped can see it? Charlie's been on Panacur for 7 days now, and I can't believe the difference! He was a lot better by day 2, but I just wanted to make sure before I posted anything... He has so much energy, there's no more blood in his stools, and he's regular!! I guess it was worms....

 

I can't thank you all enough for all the help you've given us. This site is such a great resource, and you are all such wonderful people!!

[5blackgreys]

What a wonderful update!!! I'm so glad Charlie's feeling so much better!

[Guest greymama002]

Great news! Hope that Charlie will continue to do well! to the sweet boy!

[Guest Greytluv]

Charlie

 

I'm so glad he's feeling better

[NeylasMom]

Good timing on the update b/c I just received this from my group's vet last night and I wanted to share it with you since it seems relevant to your situation:

 

We think these dogs with persistent hookworm infections have something called "larval leak". I don't know why we see this with greater frequency in the retired racers. In my experience a 10-14 course of panacur often helps. An alternative is deworming every 2 weeks until fecal tests are negative. Interceptor is supposed to take care of these, Novartis may pay for treatment if continuing infection can be documented, you'd have to contact them. Below is info copied from VIN (without permission).

 

REFRACTORY INFECTIONS OR LARVAL LEAK SYNDROME

Practicing veterinarians frequently encounter cases of persistent hookworm infections in dogs even after repeated de-wormings with a variety of drugs over the course of many months. One of the explanations for this is the concept of "larval leak" i.e. arrested larvae of A. caninum in the intestinal wall and skeletal muscle tissues of adult dogs are not significantly affected by de-wormings and thus remain a reservoir. When adults in intestines are eliminated by de-wormings, immature larvae are activated and head to the small intestine to take their place. This reservoir 'leaks' larvae directly or through the lungs to the intestinal lumen of the adult dog resulting in apparent re-infections. This "larval leak" phenomen can also occur with roundworms (Toxocara).

 

Glad to heart Charlie is doing so much better!!

[duncan41]

Whoo-hoo! So glad that Charlie is feeling better! What a puzzlement THAT whole thing was! Inquiring minds STILL want to know what were those seeds???!!!

 

Hope Charlie keeps improving and this will all be just a bad memory in a few months!

[Guest Stripeyfan]

Greyt update! I hope he continues to improve.

[greyhead]

Great update! Thanks for letting us know.