Sutra's Limp = Probable Osteo

[CaliforniaGreys]

No experience here, but please know you are both tucked very tightly in my prayers.

[Guest BooBooMama]

Nancy, thanks for sharing.

 

You guys, I'm so scared What if we do the amp and he gets depressed because it's hard to get around, or he thinks I've betrayed him in some way? He's so happy right now, running and playing in the yard on 4 legs. He has no limp at all.

 

I feel like I don't know which way is up anymore...it just doesn't make sense that he's running and playing on 4 legs and doing just fine, but he's got something inside him lurking. I guess that's what makes cancer that much more awful...

 

I feel like I can't make any sort of decision. I can't imagine him as a tripod and I'm so worried about how he will do. On the other hand, I feel like I have to do everything I can for him. I just don't want to go through with the amputation only to have him be worse off and end up having to let him go sooner than I would if I did nothing.

 

But if I do nothing, it will spread and eventually his leg will break...I'll be walking a tightrope of decision in when to let him go. I know this. God, I know this, why is it so hard for my brain to just accept it and know that we need to do the amputation? Do I subconsciously think that I shouldn't do the amputation? Why do I keep wrestling with this? Why am I so back and forth?

 

He's just laying here now, looking at me with happy, content eyes. I don't ever want those eyes to say "what have you done to me?"

 

I am going out of my mind here

 

It is so hard for me to read this. I sobbed for hours asking for BooBoo to 'tell' me what she wanted. Her OS was in her spine by the time we got the correct diagnosis so amputation was not an option but knowing the right time to let her go tortured me. Everyone told me when the time is right you will know and- they were right.

You know Sutra's heart and spirit. If you decide to go through with the amputation then you made the right choice. If you decide the amputation is just not right for Sutra- don't let anyone (including yourself) make you feel guilty. You must do what is right for Sutra.

[krissn333]

I took Sutra to see our friend yesterday while she was volunteering at the kennel. She was amazed at how well he is - she was expecting him to be limping. He's not limping at all and even played with the big sweet boy that my mom met yesterday and is now planning to adopt. She said if he were hers, she would not rush to the amputation and instead suggested getting an ultrasound. She said with her girl, it was obvious. She had a big bulging area in her shoulder. It made the decision really easy. The funny part is, nothing was showing on her xrays at all. The ultrasound showed something, then she had a core biopsy (which, Jennifer says she will never do again with a dog), which came back as a spindle cell carcinoma. It wasn't until they did the amputation and sent that for pathology that it came back as osteo.

 

While I don't want to wait too long, I want to rule out anything else before we do something drastic. I'm not horribly confident in what a FNA would tell us, given the experiences that many people have shared with me.

 

We've been having a lazy couple of days here...it's been rainy and overcast.

[Batmom]

We had a good FNA experience, but soft tissue mass so that is easier in terms of getting a useful sample.

 

Nobody can make the treatment decision but you. And nobody can see the future.

 

Some things to roll around in your head that might help you reach a decision you're comfortable with:

 

Humans and doctors both have a tendency to want to do "everything possible," even when those things have little chance of success. Then there is the problem of defining "success" -- is it 1 month? 2? 3? a year? a year of what, exactly, and at what cost? How do we gauge the experiences of a dog or cat from the dog's or cat's point of view?

 

We humans also don't like to give up until we're up against a wall. Doesn't mean that is always the right thing to do or the only option available.

 

I let Batman go when he could still get in and out of the car under his own power, wag his tail, enjoy ear rubs ..... I'd've done the same for Rocco the whippet and Zema if I'd had the chance.

 

Special scritchies to handsome Sutra and hugs to yourself.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

Kristen, I know how heart wrenching a decision it is. My first was Morgan. He started limping on a Friday night and his leg broke coming down the stairs Sunday morning. I knew nothing about osteo. at the time. At that point it's either amputate or euthanize. He was more my husband's dog so I left the decision up to him. We amputated and did 4 rounds of chemo. He lived another 3 years and we lost him to LS at 13.5, not cancer. A year after Morgan was diagnosed, Alex was diagnosed. We tried amputation and chemo with him, but mets showed up after the 3rd chemo.

Given the outcome, I wished we had never put Alex through it. Then Demon was diagnosed. We really debated about what to do. The thing that pushed me to do it was the speed the pain was escalating. He was not one who would get much time with pain management alone. Demon got 8 months of very good quality of life out of the decision. How will I deal with the next dog? I don't know...

[krissn333]

Well, on Friday morning I emailed Dr. Couto about the fine needle aspiration...does he think we need to do it, etc...here is his response:

 

An amputation is a good way to get rid of the mass/pain and get a diagnosis. Even if it is not cancer, the bone will never remodel. Hope this helps, and good luck!

 

If it's a bone infection, the bone won't remodel? At least getting rid of the infection would stop any deterioration I would think...

 

I would hate to amputate if it's NOT cancer...

 

I think I'll just call our doc and tell him we want to do the FNA and an ultrasound. All of this running in circles is doing no good. At this point I don't care what it costs me monetarily. Both procedures won't hurt him at all.

 

Any pain Sutra might have is taken care of with the Deramaxx...argh this is frustrating. If he was limping or in pain, I might be in a bit more of a hurry - but, he's perfectly normal

 

If it's cancer, I know it's basically a crapshoot if you amputate and do chemo...they could live a long time, they could only make it a few months. There's really no way to know

[jamngrey]

hugs to you during this hard time

[Guest SusanP]

Kristin, no matter what you decide to do, it will not be a "wrong" decision. :grouphug :grouphug

[krissn333]

Well, crap. He ran in the yard last night after a bunny. He came in walking just fine, but about 20 minutes later he started limping. This morning he is not using it at all and is actually knuckling the foot under. He's standing funny too - like he's in mid-poop or something. I don't know if the pain is just that bad, or what.

 

The hind end thing (standing like he's pooping) concerns me...if we amputate, can his hind end support him? Is he just being a little wobbly because he's hurting?

 

He's just had some Deramaxx and is laying down for now...I have to go to work though - I hope he will relax today while I'm gone and will feel better when I get back.

 

I fear it's time to make a big move...I just can't decide what that move is

[Batmom]

Crap. Sending lots of hugs.

[krissn333]

Well, by the time I actually left the house, he was snoring away on his bed. I don't think he slept much last night, so, hopefully he will just want to sleep all day. I need to rearrange the living room so he will have a corner to lay in - so no one can step on him.

 

Dr. Berger called this morning and I missed it - he is in surgery right now but will call me when he has a moment.

[Guest MorganKonaAlex]

Sounds like a nerve problem, like LS, not from the osteo.

[krissn333]

I read the "what to expect" thing from BigOrangeDog's siggie...very informative, and it made me feel very comfortable with going through with the amputation if necessary It really should be published and given to anyone that is considering amputation...even with everyone sharing their experiences/pictures I was terrified...having it spelled out in a sequential way really made it "click" for me I guess. I printed it, sat down and highlighted important things, and made a checklist of sorts as to what we need to look for in bloodwork, etc....medications for day of surgery and aftercare, stuff to pick up at the store (rugs for my ceramic tile floor, etc.), and just generally what to expect...questions to ask...I don't know, maybe I'm weird but I found it strangely comforting...like it's the manual to guide you or something

 

This evening he is doing better - still limping but not as badly, and he's much less stressed out. He's resting on a dog bed and I have a feeling he will sleep well tonight. I tend to panic/freak out when he's panting heavily and seems stressed...which I know doesn't help him at all, but immediately I start thinking the worst.

 

Thank you all for your support thus far, it has been invaluable

[krissn333]

When I got home from work today, Sutra was walking MUCH better...the limp is very slight. *breathes sigh of relief*

 

I called the vet's office that needs to do the FNA...since it's a referral, my vet has to call the office and speak to their vet first. So, more waiting I called my vet's office at 2pm. Receptionist tells me that he's out to lunch, will be back within the hour, and she will have him call me ASAP. It's now 5:22pm and I have not received a phone call yet. Grrr.

 

Oh well. At least he seems to be feeling a lot better.

[AstasMinion]

Sending more good vibes for Sutra. Glad he is feeling better, and here's hoping that referral vet has called you by now!!!

[krissn333]

Our vet called tonight at 6. He will call the other practice at 8am as soon as they open and I can call and make the appointment later tomorrow morning. *whew!*

[robinw]

oh no, this is so scary and so unfair! i'm sorry.

[krissn333]

I am hoping that by the end of this week, we will have a clear picture of just what exactly we are dealing with and we will have a plan of attack in motion...it's scary, but, I'm less panicked now that he is moving around comfortably again. He used the little yard tonight so he wouldn't have the inkling to run.

 

He greeted me at the door tonight when I got home from class, rooing and swishing his tail

Edited April 29, 2010 by krissn333

[Guest bigorangedog]

I read the "what to expect" thing from BigOrangeDog's siggie...

 

I am glad it helped you. Definitely feel free to PM or email if you need to. We're thinking good thoughts for you!

[krissn333]

Finally, an appointment! We'll be doing his FNA and ultrasound on Saturday morning at 8:30. This is not our normal vet so I hope they learn quickly that I'm somewhat "medically inclined" and will quit talking to me like I'm a moron.

[Xan]

Kristin, I'm just catching up on this. Wow. What a ride. Sounds like he's doing better than you are, as far as he's concerned. At least it's a mercy that he's not going through all the emotional and mental anguish that you are on his behalf.

 

Did the hind end tucking go away? Is he still knuckling under (on the front leg?) when he limps?

Hang in there!

[krissn333]

<br />Kristin, I'm just catching up on this.  Wow.  What a ride.  Sounds like he's doing better than you are, as far as <i>he's</i> concerned.  <img src='http://forum.greytalk.com/public/style_emoticons/default/bighug.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />  At least it's a mercy that he's not going through all the emotional and mental anguish that you are on his behalf.  <img src='http://forum.greytalk.com/public/style_emoticons/default/sad.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br /><br />Did the hind end tucking go away?  Is he still knuckling under (on the front leg?) when he limps?<br />Hang in there!<br />

<br /><br /><br />

 

No more knuckling under, and no more weird standing either. I think at that particular point, the pain was REALLY bad...to the point where he was literally trying not to pee (I've had pain that bad before). It had happened right when he got out of bed in the morning - so, first time standing up in several hours.

 

He's actually not really limping at all right now, which is good. I can still see a *slight* limp, but, Mark and my mom couldn't tell at all. (I'm hypersensitive mom who knows who is standing behind me just from hearing the jingle of the tags and the breathing...I notice stuff a lot easier than Mark does )

 

Sorry for the goofy syntax that's been thrown into this post - I'm on my work computer and we still have IE 6

 

Oh forgot to add that I ordered him some more joint health tabs from Springtime, as well as the Longevity stuff. Our order was over a certain amount, so we got 2 FREE jars of the joint health tabs - sweet! They really have great deals

[Mystella]

How on earth did I miss this thread. Kristin I am so sorry to hear about Sutra's problems I hope the appt goes well and you get a clearer idea of where you are at and what you want to do next. I'll be thinking of you, the appt is tomorrow right?

[krissn333]

Yep, Carolyn. Tomorrow. Fingers are crossed that he will do well being poked at with a needle.

 

He is walking no (ignore typos, I can't see what I'm typing!) He is walking normally now. He's still eating pretty well too, but has been a little bit picky the past couple of days.

[Xan]

Had to laugh about your hypersensitivity to your dogs! I'm that way, too. I can tell from around the corner that Pogo has finished eating, and is "pointing" at a kibble that has fallen out of his reach, waiting in perfect stillness for us to help him out.

 

I'm glad Sutra is feeling better. We'll all be waiting to hear how it goes tomorrow!