Benefits To Keeping Testicles?

[Guest taylorsmom]

Update:

Okay--for all you folks holding your breath and waiting to hear the update on this crazy story----Buster's purse is officially EMPTY!!!

Over the past several weeks, we have observed his little sac getting smaller and more shrunken-looking. He still has two hard round shapes in there, but they have gotten smaller too so I am assuming this is either swelling that is decreasing or just his remaining "anatomy" somehow.

We also have a new VET!!!

Just thought some of you might want to know the final outcome.

 

 

I was hoping that someone here might have some insight into this issue--I have never had a male dog, so I have no idea what to think about this.

We adopted our Iggie Buster from an IG rescue about a week and a half ago. He had been neutered by a vet that the rescue group uses right before we adopted him, and my DH took him to our vet today to have the stitches removed. Our vet said that he still has both testicles! The vet was perplexed, and thinks maybe they did a vasectomy instead of a complete removal of the testicles. I have heard that it is better from a health perspective to postpone spaying and neutering for as long as possible, that there are physical benefits such as better bone growth, etc. But I have also heard that on the flip side, at least in female dogs, that there can be an increased risk for things like mammary tumors and other reproductive system cancers with delayed spaying. I know that we usually don't have a choice regarding when it comes to retired racers, that they are usually spayed or neutered immediately, prior to adoption at the end of their careers, but I was still hoping that someone here might have some insight into this. I am really concerned that Buster will still have his hormones and thus may still be more of a "handful" as a result--going after female dogs in heat, etc. So far, he has not shown any signs of marking or any humping behaviors, but he is only 8 months old and I suppose this could happen more as he gets older with hormones, right?

So I need to think about whether the "benefits" of having his hormones outweigh the behavioral problems, or to decide to get another surgery (which I would really rather not do, he is a sighthound and has all the anesthetic issues of our greyhounds) and get the testicles removed?? I am actually pretty upset that this was done in this way, (although we hadn't completed the adoption yet when he was neutered so I guess I should not think we should have had a say in this), and that the adoption rep did not even tell me that he did not have the usual neutering surgery done as we had expected.

What would you guys do?? I think I will probably wait it out and see if he evidences any negative behaviors. I am also going to try to talk to the vet who did the surgery and see if I can find out why he did it this way, and talk it over with my vet about the pros and cons, etc.Updag

Edited November 19, 2009 by taylorsmom

[ahicks51]

There's an "apparent risk" of bone cancer in gonadectomized dogs. There is some conjecture that this is due to the "my dog got fat after neuter" thing, with more stress being placed on the bones. But if they're neutered later (after the age of 1 for large breed dogs, I seem to recall) that risk is diminished. For an Iggy, it's probably not even a consideration.

[JAJ2010]

I would call the rescue place and ask them what is goin on! Did the vets even neuter him? Wierd....

[Guest taylorsmom]

I know, weird is right!! I have a call into both the rescue rep and the vet that did the surgery. I know that they did operate, he had the sutures to prove it--I think that the vet did a vasectomy! The thing I am most concerned about is if he has the urge to try to get out of our yard to track down females in heat---you all know how important it is to never let a sighthound escape, and it is hard enough to do this without having to fight with hormonal urges as well! Or trying to mount my female dogs (which he has not done yet, but what if he does!) I am so perturbed.

Edited October 28, 2009 by taylorsmom

[Guest Energy11]

I would always neuter a male dog. There is a higher risk of testicular cancer and infection, not to mention prostate trouble, in a non-neutered dog. My son's IG wasn't neutered, and developed a badly infected prostate. He is fine now, and neutered!

[Guest SusanP]

I'd be very curious about the details of that surgery. You could get the vet contact info from your adoption kennel and then contact the vet for the specifics after that. I'd really like to hear why this was done. I wonder if there was some sort of underlying health concern that could have precluded a traditional neuter operation, or if the vet actually didn't do the surgery after all or what.

 

Please let us know what you find out.

[Burpdog]

I don't see any benefit to keeping the testicles.

 

I would call and get exactly the procedure they did from whomever did it.

[JAJ2010]

Wait a min... Are you sure there's uh... presents in the sack? I remember hearing somewhere that it take a bit for the sacks to wilt and go away. But the vet should knows that, hopefully?

[Guest taylorsmom]

Wait a min... Are you sure there's uh... presents in the sack? I remember hearing somewhere that it take a bit for the sacks to wilt and go away. But the vet should knows that, hopefully?

I know!! I am not home right now to look more closely myself, my DH took him to the vet this morning and called me a few hours ago about it. I would HOPE that my vet knows that, and knows what he is feeling, and that it is not just...uh....my dog being happy to see him, you know?? Wasn't there a thread here some time ago about males and those "olives"??? I have thought about that a number of times since getting Buster and observing that...phenomenon... but I would hope my vet would know if he is feeling testicles or olives or just an empty sac, right?? I do have a lot of faith in my vet, but oy.......

[BootsyCollins]

I don't see any benefit to keeping the testicles.

 

Best. Sentence. Ever.

[Sighthounds4me]

I live with an intact male (actually two, but one is too young for the hormones at this time). My males are not Greyhounds, and they are show/breeding prospects, thus the fact they are intact.

 

I can tell you that personality is a highly individual thing, and not usually attributed to the gonads. Manero can be moody, but I am not sure how much of that is due to his being intact. I'd like to think that neutering will solve that, but I doubt it will.

 

As far as the desire to escape, there may or may not be a reason to do so. In our case, we have had him about 4.5 years, and he has never shown any desire to escape to find a mate. Most often, if a dog has never been bred, he has no reason to seek it out, because, though the instinct is there, he has no idea how to act on it. Obviously, that is a generalization, but that has been my (limited) experience.

 

Regarding marking: marking behavior is a learned thing, and not something strictly reserved for intact males. I have seen plenty of neutered males who lift their leg, and plenty of intact males that do not. I have also seen bitches that mark, and in fact, I have one!

 

As far as humping, that is another thing that can be trained. Again, this is something that Manero has never shown any desire to do. But if he did, he'd be told NO in a heartbeat...it is something that you can prevent!

 

And bone growth: there are a lot of differences between the growth and development between an intact dog and a nuetered one. But realistically, for the pet dog, who will never race, lure-course, run agility, or other physical activity, it would not be enough to sway me not to neuter a small dog like an IG. In a big dog, like a Greyhound, I probably would wait till at least 18 months in a male. But that's just me, and it's because the development and maturation is much slower in a big dog.

 

My short answer to you is this: if I were you, I would call the rescue, and find out what procedure they asked for. If they say neuther, ask them to follow-up with the vet that did the procedure, and ask what's up. Then, if it's discovered that only a vasectomy was done, and the rescue asked for a full neuter, it is up to the original vet to complete the job.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Sighthounds4me

[Guest taylorsmom]

Thank you so much for your information and insight! Very very helpful to me.

And it is also helpful to think more clearly about what the rescue group asked for and what was actually done. I find it hard to believe that a rescue group would ask just for a vasectomy, you know? In which case, the vet should certainly be responsible for carrying out the full neutering--I hadn't really thought of that. I just wish I wouldn't have to put him under anesthesia yet again--I would love to restrict the amount of anesthesia as much as possible, as I know we all do.

But it is also helpful to know that not all male intact hounds are frantically seeking mates. My IG is generally a pretty calm guy (for an IG!!) so maybe his personality won't be so determined by his hormones. Does anyone know at what age we should see the full blooming of hormones if he is indeed intact? I am assuming he is still too young for the full impact, but what do I know??

 

I live with an intact male (actually two, but one is too young for the hormones at this time). My males are not Greyhounds, and they are show/breeding prospects, thus the fact they are intact.

 

I can tell you that personality is a highly individual thing, and not usually attributed to the gonads. Manero can be moody, but I am not sure how much of that is due to his being intact. I'd like to think that neutering will solve that, but I doubt it will.

 

As far as the desire to escape, there may or may not be a reason to do so. In our case, we have had him about 4.5 years, and he has never shown any desire to escape to find a mate. Most often, if a dog has never been bred, he has no reason to seek it out, because, though the instinct is there, he has no idea how to act on it. Obviously, that is a generalization, but that has been my (limited) experience.

 

Regarding marking: marking behavior is a learned thing, and not something strictly reserved for intact males. I have seen plenty of neutered males who lift their leg, and plenty of intact males that do not. I have also seen bitches that mark, and in fact, I have one!

 

As far as humping, that is another thing that can be trained. Again, this is something that Manero has never shown any desire to do. But if he did, he'd be told NO in a heartbeat...it is something that you can prevent!

 

And bone growth: there are a lot of differences between the growth and development between an intact dog and a nuetered one. But realistically, for the pet dog, who will never race, lure-course, run agility, or other physical activity, it would not be enough to sway me not to neuter a small dog like an IG. In a big dog, like a Greyhound, I probably would wait till at least 18 months in a male. But that's just me, and it's because the development and maturation is much slower in a big dog.

 

My short answer to you is this: if I were you, I would call the rescue, and find out what procedure they asked for. If they say neuther, ask them to follow-up with the vet that did the procedure, and ask what's up. Then, if it's discovered that only a vasectomy was done, and the rescue asked for a full neuter, it is up to the original vet to complete the job.

 

[Sighthounds4me]

Does anyone know at what age we should see the full blooming of hormones if he is indeed intact? I am assuming he is still too young for the full impact, but what do I know??

 

Now that is an answer I don't have. The breeder we work with advises us that puberty should hit in Borzoi around 18 months. I would imagine in an IG, it would be earlier, given that he's a smaller dog, and would mature faster.

Edited October 28, 2009 by Sighthounds4me

[Guest PhillyPups]

I don't see any benefit to keeping the testicles.

 

Now I bet Jeff and a few other guys on the board would highly disagree.

 

 

 

[Trudy]

I don't see any benefit to keeping the testicles.

 

Now I bet Jeff and a few other guys on the board would highly disagree.

 

Their own, absolutely!

But a dog, no need for them if you aren't showing/breeding them. Less risk for medical issues down the road. Jeff was totally on board with T becoming an "it" and we told the shelter we wouldn't keep him if he wasn't neutered by somebody. Removing those bits calmed him down in his actions toward Ryan and they live in peace now They arne't best buds and never will be, but at least we don't have 2 snippy dogs all the time now.

[Guest Greensleeves]

Regarding marking: marking behavior is a learned thing, and not something strictly reserved for intact males. I have seen plenty of neutered males who lift their leg, and plenty of intact males that do not. I have also seen bitches that mark, and in fact, I have one!

 

Yep! And the same for humping, too (yes, we have girls who do that, too.). All of our pack were neutered at around 6 months.

 

I'm kind of surprised that the practice would not do the full neuter, unless that's just that practice's policy (which would be easy to find out), because I'd think it would be a more expensive surgery, just from being less common. Castration isn't *that* invasive, and most vets have done a lot of them, so...

[tbhounds]

I find it extremely unlikely that a rescue group would use a vet that didn't castrate completely. Are you sure the Dr just looked quickly and saw a scrotal hematoma??

[greypuppyluv]

Wait a min... Are you sure there's uh... presents in the sack? I remember hearing somewhere that it take a bit for the sacks to wilt and go away. But the vet should knows that, hopefully?

That's what I was thinking.

 

[Guest taylorsmom]

I know, I wondered about this too, but my DH told me that the vet who first looked at Buster called in the other more senior vet for a second opinion and she said "yup there's testicles in there alright!"

 

I find it extremely unlikely that a rescue group would use a vet that didn't castrate completely. Are you sure the Dr just looked quickly and saw a scrotal hematoma??

 

[tbhounds]

I know, I wondered about this too, but my DH told me that the vet who first looked at Buster called in the other more senior vet for a second opinion and she said "yup there's testicles in there alright!"

 

I find it extremely unlikely that a rescue group would use a vet that didn't castrate completely. Are you sure the Dr just looked quickly and saw a scrotal hematoma??

 

Wow--I do know that sometimes when owners still what the "look" of an intact male (I know weird right?) they will have implants placed in the scrotum--it's a stretch here but, who knows???

[macoduck]

The rescue group didn't ask for "neuticles" to be installed did they?

 

Edited October 29, 2009 by macoduck

[Guest taylorsmom]

Okay, so here's the update--I am not sure whether to be embarrassed, confused, or really angry at my vet!! No, Buster does not have implants!! I spoke to the rescue rep tonight who had taken Buster to the vet (he's her vet). She spoke to the vet, and even asked the vet tech who assisted in the surgery, and who saw that Buster's testicles did indeed come out. She told me that her vet always takes out the testicles, that they have had at least 7 dogs neutered there for the rescue group and not a single one has had their vet say that the testicles were left in When I came home tonight I felt up my poor little guy's scrotum--there are definitely two small pea-sized round things rolling around in the sac. But I think I have to believe the rescue rep because she saw his male parts prior to surgery and she said (and I quote, ahem) "he had a big set before and they weren't there anymore after!" So unless he is growing a new set (yikes) it appears that these small pea-shaped things are probably internal swelling of some kind. He is still a puppy and is very active, and she said that this swelling can happen when they are very active.

So now I am really worried about my vets--why would two of them be so confused by this and not recognize post-surgical swelling?? It makes me lose quite a bit of confidence in both of them. Not sure what to do about that--is this a reason to get a new vet? The vet did say to my DH that he really wasn't sure, and that we should wait a month or two to see what happens (I guess the swelling should go away, and then the sac should be completely empty, right?) and I guess if we are still not sure we can always get bloodwork to see hormone levels.

 

[Trudy]

If they saw the removed bits, then they are gone.

T swelled up quite a bit at points after his surgery, but when the swelling reduced it was very easy to tell his bits were long gone. But swelling felt entirely different than what was previously there would have felt like (or I would think, sorry, never actually felt T's bits before they were removed, but had to check swelling a few times )

[sdisto]

I know, I wondered about this too, but my DH told me that the vet who first looked at Buster called in the other more senior vet for a second opinion and she said "yup there's testicles in there alright!"

 

I'm sorry, I know this is a serious post but this quote had me laughing so hard I almost wet myself! I can't imagine trying to keep a straight face in front of the doctors.

 

I swear, there is nothing funnier than real life. You can't make this stuff up!

[tbhounds]

Makes more sense--scrotol hematoma. Try to reduce his activity and you can warm pack the area a few times a day for the next few days--it will go down. Of course if the area becomes reddened or more inflamed looking or you see that it's bleeding a vet visit is in order (maybe at another clinic--new vet).