2 Separate Questions

[NeylasMom]

In my never ending quest to figure out what, if anything is going on with Neyla, I've got 2 more questions for you.

 

First, what dosage of glucosamine (and other related things like chondroitin, MSM, etc.) do you think is appropriate for a 60 lb, 10 yo female with DJD in a few of her toes, one bad one in particular?

 

Second, Neyla's leg (the one with the bad toe) trembles a lot when she's walking or standing although it's intermittent. I had originally thought it was due to muscle weakness from not using that leg as much (she doesn't limp, but when standing she'll put the majority of her weight on the good foot), but there doesn't appear to be any muscle loss and the orthopedist measured and confirmed this. One of my vets expressed that trembling is usually neurological and was concerned for that reason. So what could be causing the leg trembling? Should we consider seeing a neurologist? Oh, my vet did do an xray of her back end, mostly to look at her bladder but her spine at that end looked good from what she could see.

 

Thanks yet again!

[tbhounds]

As far as the shaking---is it only when she walks? If so it could be that she had a muscle tear while at the track---the tears can heal with nodules under the skin (scar tissue) shortening tissue fibers making them "stiffer".

[krissn333]

Re: glucosamine/chondroitin/MSM...I buy mine at Target...it's the Origin brand (I think that's Target's brand). I give Sutra (63 lbs) 2 tablets in the evening. He also gets an Omega 3 fish oil capsule in the morning and one in the evening (Omega 3's help with joint health too).

 

I'm at a loss on the trembling, but to me sounds like possibly something to do with the nerves in the foot/toes?

[NeylasMom]

As far as the shaking---is it only when she walks? If so it could be that she had a muscle tear while at the track---the tears can heal with nodules under the skin (scar tissue) shortening tissue fibers making them "stiffer".

 

I notice it when she's standing. It never happens when she's laying down, but it's not really happening while she's walking either. It's when she's been walking or playing and stops and stands, or she might be doing something like sniffing something on the ground, but it's always when she's up and about. I can't say with scientific certainty , but it does seem to me like it's worse when it follows heavier activity, like running and playing, which is what made me think it was just muscle deterioration in the first place.

 

She did have a muscle tear while I had her - it took AGES to heal so it could have been a re-injury of something from teh track, but that was 5 years ago and the trembling only started in the last year. The toe issue has been going on for maybe 2 years? If it were scar tissue, would we have seen the shaking sooner?

[ml529]

Payton is currently 75 lbs and he gets 3 500mg glucosmine tablets ground up with his food at night and two fish oil capsules.

[Batmom]

(she doesn't limp, but when standing she'll put the majority of her weight on the good foot)

 

After activity, that leg is tired but she's holding it so as to keep full weight off of it. So it trembles.

 

Nothing more that can be done for the toe?

[ozgirl2]

Springtime Inc (which is in Frederick or somewhere nearby) has a really good Gluc/Ch/MSM supplement AND their Fresh Factors is great too! I like them 'cause they're local - and they ship fast, as I recall. Just make sure it has MSM in it! It's a synergist which makes the other 2 work better.

 

I know a lot of older hounds who have one (or even 2) legs tremble when they stand. Never knew what caused it - always thought it was probably muscle weakness.

Can you try acupuncture with her? It really helped Cody (who had back issues affecting her back legs & tail). I think there are some in the area - I'm kind of out of the loop now though) I think Connie and maybe Susan use acu... they'd know one.

[NeylasMom]

(she doesn't limp, but when standing she'll put the majority of her weight on the good foot)

 

After activity, that leg is tired but she's holding it so as to keep full weight off of it. So it trembles.

 

Nothing more that can be done for the toe?

That's what I was thinking re: shaking, so you think my vet was overreacting?

 

Re: the toe - the way we left it was we were going to possibly try doing an injection of cortisone directly into the space b/w the joints under light anesthesia, and in the process take a biopsy to be absolutely certain there is nothing bacterial/fungal/cancer going on (but we are 99.x% sure it's just DJD). The ortho wasn't recommending it strongly, but said it was something we could do instead of amputating, which we were both in agreement was not worth the risk right now. He said the cortisone could not help at all, or it could help for a week, a month, or a year - no way to know until we try. I had set up the appt to do it, then saw improvement from the chinese herb we started and had second thoughts so I canceled it.

 

Jeannine - my vet does acupuncture. We've talked about it, but Neyla is very fearful at the vet's office so for that reason, my vet was hesitant to do it. We should probably revisit it - the acupuncture is done in a special room that has a couch and the one time we were seen in that room, Neyla settled onto the couch and actually snapped at hte vet when she poked around her toe (in other words, she was quite comfortable, normally she's frozen in fear when examined).

 

To those of you who have mentioned glucosamine supplements, do you know the dosage of the ones you're giving? We already give one (Chondroflex), but I'm interested in comparing the dosages of the various components. Dr. Radcliffe recommended we double it at one point, which I did, but I think it upsets Neyla's stomach so I'm rethinking what we should keep her at.

[greyhoundgang]

Correct dose for Glucosamine, Chondroitin, MSM for a greyhound is 1500 mg a day. Of each one.

 

Check your bottles, and give from 3 - 6 pills a day.

 

Other things to be aware of:

1. Quality - not all joint supplements are created equal - make sure they are tested, and are high quality. Grocery stores and warehouses are usually about the bottom line. Money made.

2. What else is in the pills? Read the labels. Don't give your dog something you don't understand on the label.

3. Cost - Figure out the number of pills you need to give daily to reach 1500 mgs a day. You'll then find your cost per day.

4. Dosage - they NEED the 1500 mgs a day. If you don't give that, it won't work as well. YOu can start less, but you need to get to that point. Most dogs will handle just fine. If they don't, try a different product. It could be the product.

5. Glucosamine in Food etc - this is a marketing ploy. you can't give enough daily for it to make a difference. Also it is baked in, which lowes the efficacy.

 

If you order Get Up & Go joint supplements - from Greyhound Gang you'll get everything your dogs needs.

- It's pure powder, high quality, TESTED, and is only 1/2 tsp of powder daily. no need to grind up pills.

- Additionally it is cheaper than any other as high quality product out there.

- Additionally, proceeds help rescue hounds.

- Additionally, it works for most hounds with arthritic issues. Read these unsolicited testimonials.

 

Broken Toes

Joint supplements can help most hounds. Some will always limp, and then you need to decide if amputation would be better for the dog. Dogs live fine without a toe. In just about all cases, if the broken toe is bothering them, amputation is the way to go.

 

Acupuncture

FABULOUS. for you and your hounds. Can help with so many things. Arthritis is one of them.

 

Trembling

Can be a few things.

- muscle weakness

- overweight

- being made to stand in one place for too long

- deficiency in some needed mineral/vitamin

- age

 

Joint supplements can help. Acupuncture can help. Moderate daily exercise can help. Massage can help.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Claudia & Greyhound Gang

[DonnaBehr]

I'm glad Claudia posted and saved me time since I would have only quoted what she recommended.

She advised me of the dosages for my greys and it works wonderfully.

[NeylasMom]

Claudia, thanks for your response! We have been using Chondro-flex under Dr. Radcliffe's recommendation for years (he told me it has similar quality control to Cosequin, but it's much cheaper, which is why he recommends it). Here's what's in 2 pills:

 

Glucosamine 600mg

MSM(Methylsulfonylmethane) 500mg

Chondroitin Sulfate 400mg

Yucca Root Powder 50mg

Manganese Proteinate 20mg

DL-Methionine 25mg

Ester-C 75mg

Zinc Amino 8mg

Copper Amino Chelate 3mg

 

Recommended dosage for a dog up to 60 lbs is 2 tablets/day, for a dog over 60 lbs is 3 tablets/day. Neyla hovers right around 60 lbs. We originally gave 2/day, once she was diagnosed with DJD in her toes, Dr. Radcliffe told us to double it so she has been getting 1200 mg glucosamine, 1000 mg MSM, and 800 mg chondroitin or, in other words, not enough (according to you).

 

Her toe issue is not from a broken toe, she has bone deterioration in her last joint, which has left some "rough edges" and the DJD on top of it. The good news is that the bone deterioration does not appear to have progressed significantly at all since we first saw the orthopedist about 1 1/2-2 yrs ago.

 

Re: trembling, any particular nutrients that you know of? She's not overweight at all, and is never made to stand or exercise beyond what she's comfortable with.

 

I should mention she's happy and playful otherwise. She races around the condo with toys on a regular basis, although I've noticed her doing it more since I stopped the Tramadol. Possibly a double-edged sword there though b/c she can't take NSAIDs and is therefore now on no pain meds. This is temporary, I just wanted to see what happened.

 

Anywho :blah, I'm going to check out your supplement again. I know many people swear by it and if we need to give more than 4 tablets of our current supplement to get Neyla at hte appropriate dosage and I already suspect that supplement upsets her stomach, well it may be time to consider switching. Of course, I just received a new shipment of 270 tablets!!!

[krissn333]

Claudia, can the powder be put into pill form (I've heard that some drug stores sell some contraption that helps you do this (?))? I have one of those rare hounds that prefers to take a pill as opposed to having something "foreign" in his food

[NeylasMom]

Claudia, can the powder be put into pill form (I've heard that some drug stores sell some contraption that helps you do this (?))? I have one of those rare hounds that prefers to take a pill as opposed to having something "foreign" in his food

 

Actually, I was going to ask the same question. I feed raw so pills are much easier for us too.

[IndyandHollyluv]

Dear NeylasMom -- I wrote a nice, detailed reply last night and it disappeared into a black hole! Doh! Received an error message that the Internet connection went bye-bye!

 

Anyway, my Indy, 11-1/2, has LS and mild disk protrusion confirmed by MRI; is on Claudia's Get Up and Go supplements; started going for acupuncture in Nov08; and I took him for his second chiropractic treatment tonight. All wonderful. He had several disks out (including one in his tail). The chiropractor also recommended very gentle exercises - DAILY - to stretch the ligaments in his toes. (I gently stretch each toe and count to five.) Left hind leg and toes are his problem area. His left outer (lateral) toe is totally stiff, inflamed, and clearly painful (like hammer toe). He compensates accordingly which compounds the problem and throws his hind end off.

 

The trick is to get the encroaching disk off the nerve (before numbness, tingling, and death of the nerve occur).

 

I have to say, while I am a HUGE fan of alternative modalities (supplements, acupuncture, etc) -- I think chiropractic adjustments are also critical. Nothing else will really move a disk - just alleviate the pain. I have been in search of an animal chiropractor in my area for years, but unfortunately, they were few and far between.

 

FYI - tomorrow I am taking my Hollygirl, 10, for her first chiropractic adjustment. She has the trembling legs thing after a sprint or while standing for a bath at the groomers.

 

I absolutely recommend acupuncture and chiropractic!

Edited July 31, 2009 by IndyandHollyluv