Vet Thinks It's Ibd/crohns For Beau

[RobinM]

3 day fecal came back negative for Beau. We are starting him on the Drontal Plus tonight after he eats since I know that is going to mess him up more and I may as well try and get 2 meals in him today.

 

He has been eating. At 3pm and at 10 pm, but he has been eating. His poops are still custardy if not looser.

 

We are taking him off the flagy and putting him on 1/2 teaspoon of the tylan rather than the 1/4 tsp.

 

Vet said she feels we are looking at IBD with Beau and we could see if a very low dose of pred will help. The other option is surgery/biopsy which I can't fathom to do right now for so many reasons.

 

I asked if a no grain diet could help. She doesn't seem to think it's a food related issue although yes, some foods are better than others for this.

 

He seems to like the BG canned chicken mixed in with the ID. I wondering if I should change to BG dry too. The BG has NO grain at all.

 

Thoughts?

Edited January 10, 2009 by RobinM

[Hubcitypam]

You could try the BG kibble. Maybe the potato flakes would be easier to digest than rice. They do ship free.

[RobinM]

I picked up a bag today for him. I don't know if I should start changing kibble again. I am really overwhelmed but need to stay focused.

 

I went to some IBD sites and see, no protein, a lot of protein, no carbs, a lot of carbs, low fat, high fat. etc., etc.

 

There seems to be no cut and dry rule for this, hit or miss and in the meantime, nothing is getting better.

 

Holistic vets take one approach, traditional vets take another.

Edited January 10, 2009 by RobinM

[Guest EmbersDad]

robin

 

my friends daughter, corissa, has been battling chrohns for a long time. the doctors have tried steroids, remicaid infusions, and other things to help get it under control. she had a recent flareup and was certain she would end up in the hospital. she had a colonoscopy on wed and both her and her mom were shocked to learn that she was completely clean!!!!. she has been drinking goji juice and swears that has made all the difference for her. take it FWIW.

[ahicks51]

Take the starch out. Absolutely no starch, which means NO grains, and NO potato.

 

In humans, there is a time about 3 months into this diet where things get substantially worse- mucus and blood for many. No idea at what point that happens in the canine, if it happens at all. It's largely thought to be some sort of bacterial die-off (it's also seen in humans who undertake a low-carb diet for weight or health reasons, oddly enough). Improvement is seen in another 3 months (again, in the human), followed by symptoms going away in another 6-18 months, depending upon how soon the disease was caught.

 

If your vet doesn't believe this, but thinks it's a form of "doggie Crohn's," ask if he'd be willing to look at some stuff from the refereed literature that I have as .pdfs.

[RobinM]

So what should he be eating. We know what not to feed him. What should we feed him that he will eat keeping in mind we have an extremely picky dog.

 

 

Edited January 10, 2009 by RobinM

[Guest greydogluvr]

I am so sorry, Robin. You have been through so during the past few month. Continued positive, healing thought coming your way. Big hugs to Beau.

[GreyPoopon]

Minnie has two types of IBD, diagnosed by scoping: eosinophilic gastroenteritis and ulcerative colitis. The lab report indicated that it was related--at least in part--to food allergies.

 

Since she was extremely sick, she was put on the maximum amount of pred, tylocine, flagyl, and misoprostal. I don't recall exactly when we took her off the various things, but I think we dropped the flagyl first, then the misoprostal, then the tylocine. It took about 9 months to wean her off the pred.

 

We also started her on a limited ingredient diet (one (novel) protein, one carb): IVD's Venison and Potato.

 

She did not have another bout of HGE during the time she was on pred. However, it took many weeks for her to finally start regaining some of the weight she'd lost and a few months before her poop was firm.

 

For the first few years, she tended to have one relapse per year, but she has been fairly stable for several years now, and is controlled via diet. We no longer use IVD--it isn't sold here any more--and have had to switch foods a few times for various reasons.

 

A few years ago, we ran allergy blood tests. A lot of vets still don't like them, but they've helped Minnie's health and my sanity. My vet uses the SPOT test from Spectrum Labs.

[RobinM]

Minnie has two types of IBD, diagnosed by scoping: eosinophilic gastroenteritis and ulcerative colitis. The lab report indicated that it was related--at least in part--to food allergies.

 

Since she was extremely sick, she was put on the maximum amount of pred, tylocine, flagyl, and misoprostal. I don't recall exactly when we took her off the various things, but I think we dropped the flagyl first, then the misoprostal, then the tylocine. It took about 9 months to wean her off the pred.

 

We also started her on a limited ingredient diet (one (novel) protein, one carb): IVD's Venison and Potato.

 

She did not have another bout of HGE during the time she was on pred. However, it took many weeks for her to finally start regaining some of the weight she'd lost and a few months before her poop was firm.

 

For the first few years, she tended to have one relapse per year, but she has been fairly stable for several years now, and is controlled via diet. We no longer use IVD--it isn't sold here any more--and have had to switch foods a few times for various reasons.

 

A few years ago, we ran allergy blood tests. A lot of vets still don't like them, but they've helped Minnie's health and my sanity. My vet uses the SPOT test from Spectrum Labs.

 

So what are you feeding?

 

[GreyPoopon]

For the first few years, she tended to have one relapse per year, but she has been fairly stable for several years now, and is controlled via diet. We no longer use IVD--it isn't sold here any more--and have had to switch foods a few times for various reasons.

So what are you feeding?

 

She's on Techni-Cal Lamb & Rice, which is produced by a Canadian subsidiary of Royal Canin. Another good clean lamb & rice is California Natural's. She also did very well on Wellness Simple Food Solutions Venison and Rice until they reformulated it slightly and she would no longer eat it.

 

Just by-the-by, her food allergies/sensitivities are apparently chicken, turkey, milk, fish mix, barley, wheat, and (in a separate test) peanut butter.

[Guest mandm]

I strongly suspect my greyhound has IBD, although I've never had him scoped. He tested positive for SIBO (Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth) which often accompanies IBD. I've given greyhounds Pred before and REALLY wanted to avoid that. I told myself it would be the absolutely last resort. So I did some serious diet adjustments & found that total elimination of carbs worked for my dog. No carbs whatsoever, no grains, no starches, no vegetables, nothing but lean meat/bone/organ. It's expensive & it's a hassle, but my greyhound is drug free & thriving.

[Guest PeteysMom]

Maybe start him on a colostrum supplement and probiotics to get his gut back to functioning correctly? Antibiotics, etc. can really throw off the balance in his gut. I would also try watching the grains, starch, etc. I've never had a hound with IBD, but it's just a thought.

[tbhounds]

Many IBD dogs are placed on a novel food/low fat diet. Novel meaning a protein source unfamiliar to them such as rabbit, venison duck, and the carb source such as sweet potato. What works for my dog might not work for yours but, in my case I'm feeding Natural Balance Duck and Potato top dressed with raw rabbit (ground meat and bone).

My boy has had Flagyl (Metronidazole), Tylan powder, Amoxi, B-12 injections and probably a few more meds I'm overlooking right now but, the medication that really turned him around is the steroid called Budesonide. It, for the most part, stays within the GI tract and therefore you don't experience the side-effects that is so often seen with Prednisone.

I'll warn you, it's not cheap but, in my case it truly was a lifesaver for my Poots.

I did have him scoped but, honestly I'm not sure I would do it again. You can get biopsy's via scoping but, through the scope you can only get the surface of the gut and most often the "scary" cells underline the inflamtory cells--so, bottom line to get the most accurate biopsy's you often need to perform a "truecut" and the only way to get those biopsy's is via surgery.

[Remolacha]

Fletcher has (relatively) mild IBD. He was never scoped, my vet just said, let's treat it as IBD and see what happens. He started out with pred, Flagyl, and something else I've forgotten, to get get his bowels stable and to get rid of any parasites. He's a poop eater, and until I caught on to this, he ate feral cat poop as well as his own He also went on a limited ingredient food, venison and sweet potato, I think (this was all over three years ago). Through trial and error, I've discovered his food triggers (many), what he can eat in small amounts and what he can't eat at all. Now his IBD is controlled through diet, with Flagyl for an occasional flare up. Luckily, Flagyl works well for him. He is now raw fed, and that has been a life saver for him.

 

I think, unfortunately, each dog with this is a little different, and you have to find what foods work and what doesn't. Grains and starch seem to be pretty common culprits, although they don't bother Fletcher. He can eat any protein I've tried him on, but absolutely no veggies, and only a few fruits.

 

What should Beau eat? He seems to do fine on beef and chicken, yes? Maybe he needs to stay away from grains since he has been doing well on BG. My advice, FWIW, keep the ingredients limited and stay with them unless he gets worse or quits eating. It takes time, especially since he's been through so much. He's so sensitive, maybe just having Polli through with chemo will help, who knows?

 

 

[Guest MZH]

Budesonide (brand name is Entocort EC for humans) has turned my life around, so I can personally vouch for it. It's just as successful for dogs and cats. I'm almost positive must be compounded for pets.

 

Tylan (tylosin powder) is the most cost effective thing to try and is also a life-saver for many dogs with chronic diarrhea; if that doesn't work I would encourage you to try the budesonide.

 

I sure wish someone would figure out a way to cure bowel problems!

 

Marcia

[RobinM]

We just read many of the things you guys have repsonded about ie: SIBO, (which has many more of the traits Beau is showing, B12 and Budesonide. I eamailed my vet my thoughts and the several articles about these several things. I sure hope she does not think I am trying to undermine her. i am trying to, at all costs avoid sugery and pred. If it becomes absolutely necessary, I will do whatever it takes, but for now, we are trying the B1, tylan, BG canned and possibly a change to the BG kibble for 6 weeks.

[PrairieProf]

I don't have personal experience with this, but my best friend's Chow-Husky mix was diagnosed with IBD and the solution after extensive work with her vet was to put him on a diet with hydrolyzed protein (protein that has already been broken down, basically). She did a lot of online research on the available brands and settled on Purina HA, which doesn't have that nasty artificial preservative you want to avoid (its name escapes me at the moment). The ingredients are pretty gross when you read them, and the kibble looks like big Sugar Pops, but Hajime has been doing great on it for years -- no stomach issues, plenty of energy, etc. There are treats made in the formula too, as she has to be religious about not giving him anything else (except some PB for a pill he takes for another condition).

Edited January 10, 2009 by PrairieProf

[RobinM]

Fletcher has (relatively) mild IBD. He was never scoped, my vet just said, let's treat it as IBD and see what happens. He started out with pred, Flagyl, and something else I've forgotten, to get get his bowels stable and to get rid of any parasites. He's a poop eater, and until I caught on to this, he ate feral cat poop as well as his own He also went on a limited ingredient food, venison and sweet potato, I think (this was all over three years ago). Through trial and error, I've discovered his food triggers (many), what he can eat in small amounts and what he can't eat at all. Now his IBD is controlled through diet, with Flagyl for an occasional flare up. Luckily, Flagyl works well for him. He is now raw fed, and that has been a life saver for him.

 

I think, unfortunately, each dog with this is a little different, and you have to find what foods work and what doesn't. Grains and starch seem to be pretty common culprits, although they don't bother Fletcher. He can eat any protein I've tried him on, but absolutely no veggies, and only a few fruits.

 

What should Beau eat? He seems to do fine on beef and chicken, yes? Maybe he needs to stay away from grains since he has been doing well on BG. My advice, FWIW, keep the ingredients limited and stay with them unless he gets worse or quits eating. It takes time, especially since he's been through so much. He's so sensitive, maybe just having Polli through with chemo will help, who knows?

 

 

This is what my vet wants to do. Start a low dose of pred and hope for the best. I feel that we should try and do everything possible before we go that route since that route is always an option.

 

I read on one of the UKs IBD sites that the tylan powder should be used for 6 weeks before we say it's not works. We have had him on 1/4 teaspoon for 9 days and just today upped it to 1/2 teaspoon. We are also going to add in the B12. I need to give this a serious try before we do the pred route but it's a definite possibilty.

I do not want to do surgery again on this poor dog. It's just too much already.

 

[Guest ss556]

Robin, no advice, just hugs and prayers.

[Guest LynnM]

It doesn't have to be compounded for a greyhound size dog. It's just one capsule, versus 2 or 3 for a human/larger animal. I've seen it compounded for cats/tiny dogs, though.

 

What's been working for Joplin has been weekly B12 injections, low dose of Flagyl and every-other-day budesonide. He is eating Eukanuba low residue and a bottle of Ensure plus (he's always been a hard keeper in the weight department.)

 

Lynn

[ahicks51]

So what should he be eating. We know what not to feed him. What should we feed him that he will eat keeping in mind we have an extremely picky dog.

 

My recommendations: no starch, which (for the canine) usually means "low carb," which in turn translates into either home-cooked or raw food.

 

I tried budesonide (Entocort) for 3-4 weeks; by that point in time, I had removed starch from my diet and was already feeling well enough that its side effects didn't merit staying on the drug. It can be well-tolerated by some, and if it does well for you- great.

 

Typically, this sort of thing is managed (in the human) with antibiotics, anti-inflammatories, disease-modifying anti-rheumatic drugs (DMARDs), steroids, and tumor necrosis factor (TNF) drugs. All of these- except the TNF drugs- are used in the canine; TNF drugs are simply astronomically expensive, so they are not employed in the veterinary realm.

 

Each one of these drugs comes back to the management of one thing: chronic inflammation, presumably caused by colonization of the gut by a nasty little bugger called Klebsiella pneumoniae. Some of the enzymes it puts off are structural mimics of collagen, and- as a result- the body starts attacking its own collagen as well as the enzymes. This is why folks with Crohn's tend to get rheumatoid arthritis and back pain, too- the collagen in the joints is attacked. Indeed, ankylosing spondylitis is also caused by Kp; the only difference between that and Crohn's is whether the individual has a certain gene (HLA-B27).

 

The key to beating this- if Kp really is at the root of canine IBD/PLE/Crohn's- is to getting the starch out. Unfortunately, I don't know of any canned or bagged foods like this; perhaps someone else does. If you have a good butcher shop that can get in cases of chicken necks, chicken frames, beef heart, etc., it can actually be less expensive to feed raw food than kibble. While ultimately it may not be cheap (depending upon your location), if you're fortunate and such dietary management works, you will ultimately save money by being able to cut back (or possibly even cut out) the meds they would otherwise have to take.

[RobinM]

It doesn't have to be compounded for a greyhound size dog. It's just one capsule, versus 2 or 3 for a human/larger animal. I've seen it compounded for cats/tiny dogs, though.

 

What's been working for Joplin has been weekly B12 injections, low dose of Flagyl and every-other-day budesonide. He is eating Eukanuba low residue and a bottle of Ensure plus (he's always been a hard keeper in the weight department.)

 

Lynn

 

Lynn- I was actually hoping you;d chime in.

 

What doesn't have to be compounded? How does the B12 injection 1x a week differ from the 200mg daily in pill form?

We are just taking him OFF the Flagyl as he has been on and off for about 5 weeks at this point with no changes however the Tylan we did not give it long enough according to the "experts".

 

As far as the weight control, I just bought Dyne, a supplement with 150 calories in 1 oz so I pray he likes the taste of that as he will not go near the ensure.

 

One of the biggest problems I have is that there are so many foods that so many different people recommend and I have NO experience witt this, I am all over the place.

Edited January 11, 2009 by RobinM

[rschultz]

lexie is on the iams low residue and since she cant have snacks they told me to put some of the canned low residue in ice cube trays . She thinks they are treats. so sorry that your going through this. we are having issues again too. It is so frustrating.

 

lexie was on the tyleson powder at least a month. we just weened her off and now she has issues again. So I guess I will have to put her back on it. I have heard that some dogs can be on it a long time.

[RobinM]

What is tyleson vs tylan powder?

 

And as far as putting the food in ice trays as a snack, that would work for Chloe, possibly Teddy but no freaking way would Beau go for that. He is ridiculously picky, just like his mother. What are the chances of one person getting 2 dogs with eating disorders. They drive me NUTS! I love them and that's a very good thing!!!!

[Guest SoulsMom]

I'll be watching to see what works for Beau, poor baby

 

As you know, Soul is back on the all ID diet for a month. He was grain free to begin with, so I just don't know. My vet hasn't ruled out IBD (as you know HGE is kind of a 'catch all' dx), but Soul would have to be scoped to determine for sure, and neither of us want to do that because it's so invasive.

 

So, for right now we are in the same boat. Trial an error to find out what works. I have the added issue of Soul's discoid lupus, but cannot give him the supplements until we figure out the bleeding. So we are doing one thing at a time, slowly, slowly until we find what the triggers are, then we can work on a combo that he can tolerate.

 

I've even wondered if things like the bag balm for his nose, or the dentatreat that I brush his teeth with could be factors.