New Mom With Questions About What's Normal

[KingsMom]

Greetings everyone! I'm a new mom to 5 yr. old King. He just finished racing in August and has been through the Second Chance at Life Greyhound Prision Program, so he is trained pretty well. He's been with us for almost 3 weeks. I've read a lot of info here on this site and really appreciate how everyone supports each other. My husband and I have never had a dog before so we're a bit unsure of some of the things King is dealing with. First, he seemed perfectly normal when we got him, he was panting a bit more than I thought was normal but the adoption group said that he was just nervous and it would go away. My concern is that 3 weeks later, he's just laying around the house panting heavily for what appears to be no reason. He doesn't do it all of the time, but I notice it frequently. Last Monday, March 3, I noticed that he had been having trouble peeing for a couple of days. He would go out and stand there for 5 minutes or so with out any output then it would come out in a slow stream. I was concerned so we took him to the vet. He said that his urine PH level was a bit high but other than that everything seemed normal. He did check his prostate and it was not swollen. He gave him an antibiotic. He's starting to seem better but it's almost like the opposite is happening. He goes outside and can usually get started rather quickly with a strong stream (like he did when he first came to us) but then at the end is seems to dribble off. What's normal!?! I just don't know what to expect any more... Next, we think he was on Beneful while with the adoption group but we didn't want to keep him on that so we switched to Natures Receipe venison. I had intended to get the lamb formula but there was a mix up at the pet store and we ended up with the other one so we decided to give it a try. Well since we've had him he has only had one solid poop. On March 2 we started to switch him to the Kirklands brand Chicken Formula because I read that it was reccommeded on this site and the ingredients look good, but after 5 days of slowly increasing the amount of new food (today we're up to 50% old & 50% new) his poops are still very runny and might even be getting worse! I don't want to upset his stomach up by changing food too often but I don't know how long to give the new stuff or when to expect a change, I think the vet may have said a week but I honestly can't remember. I have been giving him yogurt, but I admit it probably isn't the best yougurt to find probiotics in. Finally, today I noticed some drips from his nose while we were inside and outside. He hadn't just had a drink or anything and I've never heard of a dog's nose running! I know when my nose runs I'm uncomfortable, is it the same for him?!? I know this is a lot to digest but I certainly appreciate any advice you can offer to a new mom. Thanks!

[Shaysmom]

I don't know if I can be of much help on all of your concerns, but I can tell you that nose dripping can be a normal sign of nervousness or excitement. Our pup's nose drips on a regular basis when he is is a new or uncertain situation. Our car is covered with drippy spots .

[Batmom]

Panting: nervous or warm or not feeling well. How warm is your house? Does he go for walks or jaunts in your fenced yard? Play with toys at all?

 

Peeing: sounds pretty normal now. They often kinda dribble a bit at the end. Just a dog thing. If he's walking down the sidewalk still dribbling, I'd get him looked at, but if he's standing there peeing and the end isn't quite like turning off a tap, that's OK.

 

Food: Finding something that works can be a trial. Might stop the yogurt for the time being as some dogs don't tolerate dairy. Foods that I have the best luck with in the beginning are Purina ONE or ProPlan Sensitive Systems and IAMS adult. In my experience, if you get runny poop when starting a food, you always get runny poop from that food ..... BUT you might also want to take a stool sample to your vet to double-check for worms and suggest 2 rounds of Panacur de-wormer (also treats giardia).

 

Nose drips: nervous or excited or just because. My old boy and my newer boy had/have drippy noses.

 

Congratulations on your pupper!

[KingsMom]

Panting: nervous or warm or not feeling well. How warm is your house? Does he go for walks or jaunts in your fenced yard? Play with toys at all?

 

Peeing: sounds pretty normal now. They often kinda dribble a bit at the end. Just a dog thing. If he's walking down the sidewalk still dribbling, I'd get him looked at, but if he's standing there peeing and the end isn't quite like turning off a tap, that's OK.

 

Food: Finding something that works can be a trial. Might stop the yogurt for the time being as some dogs don't tolerate dairy. Foods that I have the best luck with in the beginning are Purina ONE or ProPlan Sensitive Systems and IAMS adult. In my experience, if you get runny poop when starting a food, you always get runny poop from that food ..... BUT you might also want to take a stool sample to your vet to double-check for worms and suggest 2 rounds of Panacur de-wormer (also treats giardia).

 

Nose drips: nervous or excited or just because. My old boy and my newer boy had/have drippy noses.

 

Congratulations on your pupper!

 

Thanks for your reply. The house is about 78-80 degrees. We walk him 2-4 times per day, but he pants even when he hasn't been out in a while... We can't seem to get him interested in toys. When he is excited he just likes to jump (which we're trying to stop) we try to engage him with some of the squeeky toys we have, but he just looks at us. We also can't get him to get up on the couch to sit with us, I think it would help him feel more loved to be with us on the couch instead of on the floor while we're up but he just doesn't want to be on the couch so we haven't forced him. He does like Kongs and Rawhides though! I'll stop the yogurt for a week or so, by that time we should be on 100% new food, I guess I'll give that a couple of days and if it doesn't work we'll try the Purina One. Thanks again, I'll take any advice I can get, I just want to be sure King feels loved!!

[Guest KsFrets]

I don't know how or why...but I've noticed that when Magnus eats a lot off a rawhide bone in a day...his poo gets really soft the next day. When we got him, he was eating Pedigree, and poo was really soft. We switched to Nutro large breed, and it's really solid now.... Unless he does too much rawhide (or we give him ice cream...BIG mistake!!!). Magnus is a pee machine...and yep..he's a dribbler at the end. Maggie does the panting thing. Sometimes for no aparent reason. We've only had her 3 weeks and she has a clean bill of health from the vet. She runs well at the park and makes long walks just fine...so I'm not worried. She is always the first to pant in the car or while running, and I don't think she is in as good as shape as Magnus yet. It's getting better fast though. It took Magnus about a month to losen up and start playing...now it's part of every day! Maggie took his lead and has played well right from the start. As for Drippy noses...they both do quite often. It's been cold, and they certianly have drippy noses on walks and in the cold car. It's carried on inside as well a little, and our front window sill and window is a mess from drippy noses watching squirrels. Both Maggie and Magnus are allowed on the couch or bed if they want...but so far, only Magnus will nap on the bed, but preferres his bed on the floor at night. Maggie won't get on the bed at all, and neither get on the couch...yet. Congratulations on your new family member!!! Our's are prison graduates as well...have you tried "shake" or "speak" yet? Both Magnus and Maggie will shake, and Maggie will speak for a treat!

Edited March 9, 2008 by KsFrets

[seeh2o]

Congratulations on your first dog...and your first greyhound!

 

I've had Carl since mid August, he gets a drippy nose when he's excited and sometimes when he is really really happy/content.

 

I agree with the panting as a nervous gesture, it will probably disapate.

 

As for the loose poops, try about 2 big tablespoons of pumpkin pulp, the canned stuff you buy for pies, but without spices. Pumpkin is very helpful for loose poop. Try mixing it in with his dog food for a few days. It will probably help, it sure can't hurt.

 

 

[KingsMom]

Thanks for the pumpkin thought... I'll try that! We haven't tried shake or speak yet, I think I'm waiting for him to relax more and stop panting. He doesn't seem nervous when he's panting, usually he's just laying around or looking to be petted... I'm wondering if he just really misses the other greys, we don't have any other pets around...

[Guest Willerton]

I wouldn't make a big deal of the panting unless he makes other indications of being in pain. Otherwise, if he is nervous, attention to the panting can make him feel like there's a reason to be nervous.

 

I don't know where you live, but where I live, 78-80 is a hot summer day! My guy would be panting for sure. Maybe he's not used to the temp of your house yet.

 

 

I wouldn't worry about him not wanting to get on the couch yet. He's probably not comfortable enough yet. Mine didn't get on the couch for 6 months, and now over 1.5 years later, he's finally starting to actually "snuggle."

 

I was a super anxious new owner (I'd never had a dog before) and I think probably the best overall advice I can give is just not to pay too much attention to all these little things and keep going like everything is normal. Then it will actually start to feel that way!

[4greyhounds]

I agree with everyone else this could be because he is still sooo Nervous! Changes will make them nervous! But like everyone else said if he is not in pain, he will get over it and be ok. Jasmine panted a lot when I first got her I got worried and took her to the vet and she was FINE!

[ahicks51]

If the pumpkin doesn't work, try beet pulp (~1-2 tbs per meal). It helps sponge up extra water, changing the stool texture from "pudding" to "acceptable." Concerns about stool quality in greyhounds turns most hound owner chats into pure scatology, so this is nothing new.

 

If you can't get beet pulp locally, PM me and I'll send you a box of the stuff to try.

[seeh2o]

I don't know where you live, but where I live, 78-80 is a hot summer day! My guy would be panting for sure. Maybe he's not used to the temp of your house yet.

 

I was thinking the same thing. Carl's body runs very hot, he's not a dog that needs a coat when going outside (granted it only gets down to the low 40's here in SoCal) and if I cover him with something as light as a sheet when he's sleeping he wakes up panting like mad. Even on a cool day, Carl gets hot in the car (a cool-to-me-car), I either have to open a window for him or turn on the a/c. It may just be too hot in your house for him.

 

[Guest muppy_n_motch]

I'm new here too - so Hi everyone!

 

Our greyt Motch pants too - we live in a hot climate - but it's a pretty random thing for him, he'll just get a good pant going sometimes and then he settles himself down and goes to sleep. He also "runs" and whines and moans and barks in his sleep occasionally - so he's got plenty of little quirks. His nose runs too - I personally don't think it's anything to worry about - the fluid is almost like tears, just wet and watery - not sticky or smelly or coloured - if it's anything like that then get your vet to have a look at him.

 

Food: I find that a couple of days of meaty chicken on the bone, raw meat (we feed kangaroo because its almost fat free and readily available here in Australia), and even some rice and vegetables clears it up for our guy - I have to say that I'm not a very good dog mum sometimes - and if they really seem to struggle with a food I just stop feeding it and try something else - I'm sure that's not considered to be good practice - but their body is telling you something and no-one likes runny poo do they?

 

Motch came to us from the Greyhound Adoption Programme here and he was eating the most disgusting pre-prepared "greyhound" wet food - and did he ever toot and runny-poop! After a few days, I threw out that food, switched him cold-turkey to the food our other dog eats and hey-presto no toots or runny-poops.

 

Of course that is certainly a "your-mileage-may-vary" situation.

 

Last but not least - couches, settling in and warming up. Some greyts can take a while to warm up - I wonder if it has anything to do with his "training" before he came to you. He may have lived quite a structured, regimented life while he was there - he probably wasn't allowed on the furniture or to do all the wacky things greyts do when we're wrapped around their giant paws. Give him time and love; and slowly, slowly he'll come out of his shell. Try laying down on the floor with him, snuggling - he may like it so much that he follows you up onto the couch.

 

good luck! and relax and enjoy your beautiful pointy nosed doggy.

Edited March 9, 2008 by muppy_n_motch

[GeorgeofNE]

I'd be panting if my house was 78 degrees! I find my hound does not like high temps at ALL. It doesn't say where you live in your little info. box. You may have no choice about that temp., but despite the very common trend that houndies don't like the cold, my dog HATES the heat. In the summer, he just dragged around on hot days. This winter, there was no day that was "too cold" for him to want to be outside walking (with his coat on!).

 

Running nose is normal--as long as it isn't running all the time--standing and trying to pee while nothing comes out is NOT normal. It's good you took him to the vet--if that pee thing continues you'll want to go back and ask about bladder stones.

 

Frequently changing the food is counter productive. For each change you make, you're likely to start the soft poo cycle all over again. Remember everything in his life has changed AGAIN. So take it slow. A brand new dogs in your home probably shouldn't be up on the furniture anyway, so don't fret over that. My dog has zero interest in the bed or the couch at all. He also rarely plays--he's also 5 years old. George had chronic diarrhea when I got him. He had it the entire time he was in foster care. Despite negative fecal exams, I asked the vet about dosing him with Panacur because I had read that in one of the books about retired hounds--that if they've had diarrhea since leaving the track, it was worth a try. Anyway, she agreed to that, we dosed him as directed, and the diarrhea cleared up. I also give George pumpkin from time to time, and he loves it!

 

You said you walk him twice a day. I hope it's safe to assume he's not just going OUT twice a day! If so, that's not even close to enough. I am guessing you have a yard and he gets tinkle breaks more often.

 

The more exercise you give them during the settling in phase (which is just a few days for some, and months and months for others) the better. A tired hound is a happy hound!

 

It sounds like things are going pretty well, and I am sure they will continue to progress!

[Guest cas0673]

Oh yes!!!! Your post sounds like my worries when I got our Grey a year ago.

The runny nose I noticed when they came to drop him off at our house. The adoption people said Greys have something with their tear ducts. That instead of tearing from their eyes, it comes out their noses. So it should just be tears....try it.....is it salty? NO......I'm KIDDING, don't try it!!!!!!!! I had so many issues just like yours with my marble when I got him. We did blood tests, they thought all kinds of things. It may be an allergy to something in the food. That is a big thing with greys and their sensitive systems. Parasites is a big thing!! And it could take a while to get rid of them totally. I think that was part of our problem. He had the poo problem, and still does. he is on a prescription food from the Vet that is very expensive. I am now trying to find a food that will be ok for him. We gave him tylan powder on his food, and that frims things up....but that is something you want to talk to a vet about. And not something I think you do right away. I'd try other things first. With the panting, I also thought there was something wrong. I even took him back to the Vet, and they listened to his heart and all and said he is good to go. So I think it is like some one else said, nerves, upset tummy, the heat. Believe it when people say it could take your Grey awhile to feel comfortable in your house. Up to a year or more. And I believe it. But you know, Marble is so great, that it is so worth it later. I don't have any kids, but man, he's like one. You really fall in love. They are just something else. So hopefully you'll get it straightened out. And if you have a good Vet, you should be ok. I had switched my vet to one that has Greys himself. And the other Vet in the office seems to KNOW greys and is familiar with their ins and outs , which is important. Good Luck!!

[Saffron]

Hi, and congratulations on your first greyhound!

 

As others have said --

Drippy nose: quite normal when excited or stressed.

Panting: could be nervous, hot or in pain.

Pee: Well, it sounds as though that problem is probably fixed.

Couch: Give him time to settle in. Once he's up there, the problem will be getting him off it

 

Soft poops. This is a process of elimination and here is what I'd do in the short term:

Talk to your vet and do a fecal to check for parasites (again?) -- worms do not show up in every test.

You are doing the right thing to change foods slowly, but some foods don't work with all dogs. Rather than change again now though, add spoonful of 100% pure pumpkin (found in the baking section) or beet pulp to kibble of choice. Stop all other treats for the moment -- If he likes Kongs, use some of his breakfast kibble in them. If this doesn't work it is time to change kibble.

 

I'm wondering if the rawhide isn't the culprit here? I am not keen on rawhide for several reasons, soft poops being one of them, potential for choking or obstruction and nasty additives being others. There are better tooth cleaning chews (raw bones come to mind. )

 

Good luck.

[Guest lizmego]

If the pumpkin doesn't work, try beet pulp (~1-2 tbs per meal). It helps sponge up extra water, changing the stool texture from "pudding" to "acceptable." Concerns about stool quality in greyhounds turns most hound owner chats into pure scatology, so this is nothing new.

 

If you can't get beet pulp locally, PM me and I'll send you a box of the stuff to try.

Don't you have to soak beet bulp before feeding? or do you just throw the dry flakes in their food?

[KingsMom]

Wow! Thanks everyone for your helpful advice. I apologize if this ended up in the wrong section, I thought it was medical but it seems like it might belong somewhere else… The trials of a new Mom I guess. Lets see…

 

Rawhide: How much is a lot? He chews on it for about 10-15 minutes per day… Usually late at night or early in the morning. We only allow him to have it while we’re home and we only buy American made. It’s my understanding that if it is made in America is doesn’t have the chemicals we worry about… I’ll see if I can find any raw bones though… never heard of that.

 

Panting: We live in Southern Florida, so it is hot here, but my husband and I are natives so we are comfortable at 78-80 in the house… I’ll try lowering it a bit and see if it helps him. We really hadn’t considered the fact that he might just be hot! He walks normally, but when we did let him off leash at the dog park, he really didn’t run around at all, just sniffed everything! But it also isn’t a great dog park…

 

Poop & Food: When I took him out this morning it seemed even runnier than before… I didn’t have the pumpkin for his breakfast but I did put it in his Kong this afternoon with a small amount of peanut butter and he will get the pumpkin at dinner. I’ve been putting some of the new kibble in his Kong but either he doesn’t have interest or he can’t figure out how to get it out. We’re not sure which. I’ve stopped the yogurt for now. If his poop isn’t improved in about a week, I’ll probably try cooked chicken and veggies only for a few days and then slowly add in some Purina One or Nutro and see how he does with it. The only real treats we give his are small chicken rounds (which he only sometimes likes) greenies once a day because our vet recommended them because he doesn’t like to have his teeth brushed, and milk bones. I don’t know if I can get beet pulp or not, I’ll look into it. If none of that works, I’ll take him to the Vet for the parasite check. He was evaluated very well before we got him and the Vet said it should get better with new food, so we’ll see. Our Vet has Greys of his own, so I trust him!

 

Couch: Thanks for letting me know that it can take a long time for him to have interest; I might have been worrying for a year or more! He has probably not seen a couch before he came to us; I don’t think he was ever actually in a foster home. My sister and her dog will be visiting us soon; perhaps her dog will show him the couch is ok!

 

Walks: We take him out for 10-30 minute walks at least 2-4 times per day. If it is only twice per day they are longer walks. Usually with these longer walks he seems more tired than we are by the end! We don’t have a fenced yard, so we also take him out just to tinkle a few other times throughout the day and night. If he needs to go out he does let us know!

 

I’m trying to just keep on like everything is normal (except the poop). My husband is better at that than I am. He keeps telling me, “You’re going to make a great Mom, you worry about everything and make decision about almost nothing…” Thanks again… I look forward to being an active member of this community!

 

[Batmom]

That bit of chewing on rawhide shouldn't bother him.

 

It took my Zema 7.5 years to get up on the couch. I admit, I'd only been TRYING to get her up for about a year :lol . Now Joseph -- as soon as he saw Zema up there, it was only a matter of days? weeks? before he was up there too. I do remember that when he first came home, even the thick dog beds seemed high up and wobbly and scary to him.

[Guest Sassy]

Don't you have to soak beet bulp before feeding? or do you just throw the dry flakes in their food?

 

For dogs, you feed the beet pulp dry. For horses, it has to be fed after soaking it. Because one is omnivorous and the other an herbivore, the beet pulp is digested differently; plus, it's fed for different purposes. If you feed it presoaked to the dog, it won't absorb excess moisture.

[Guest lizmego]

You might want to stagger out him getting Greenies. I'm sure each vet recommendation is different but my vet only recommends once per week as it can be hard on their digestive track. I don't feed Greenies or any other digestable chew - just don't like the thought of feeding my dog something that looks like plastic. Raw beef knuckle bones are best to feed as they can tear off the meat chunks and tendons but just chew chew chew on the bone and not digest something manmade.

 

If this were my dog, I would start with the pumpkin addition, removing the Greenie and raw hides from the diet entirely for now and see how his poops are after 1-2 weeks (leaning more towards 2 weeks). I think all the numerous things in his diet may be throwing him off. You'll need to take things out of his diet and watch his poop. If it gets better, then start adding the rawhide chewing back in, if you see runny poops, then its likely its the rawhides. a lot of this is trial and error.

 

I'd hold off doing beet pulp until you eliminate other things from his current diet. No need throwing something else new into the mix when its something from his current regimen that is not agreeing with him.

 

Keep us posted.

 

Liz

 

Don't you have to soak beet bulp before feeding? or do you just throw the dry flakes in their food?

 

For dogs, you feed the beet pulp dry. For horses, it has to be fed after soaking it. Because one is omnivorous and the other an herbivore, the beet pulp is digested differently; plus, it's fed for different purposes. If you feed it presoaked to the dog, it won't absorb excess moisture.

I love this site. I learn something new everyday!

[maximum]

I'll just second most of what has been said here - at 78 degrees, he likely is just hot. My Max hates the heat - he is most comfortable around 66 degrees. He pants most of the summer, even in our air conditioning. Here is in Canada, his best time is late fall...

 

The nose drippies? We've had Max - wow, it's 6 years this week! - and his schnooz still drips like a tap (and he is NOT a high stress dog at all). We call him Sir Snotsalot some of them are just drippy. The pee sounds normal now as well, it does tend to dribble off a bit (often still doing so when they begin to walk again - hence the baby wipes at the back door, to wipe down a certain boy's legs!)

 

Regarding the food, if you want to get to the root of the problem, I would try stopping *all* treats and getting him onto a corn-free, wheat-free food with a single source protein and carb (such as Dick Van Patten). If you can't find one you like, try getting him onto something that is corn and wheat free, a lot of dogs are sensitive to those. That way you can start to isolate what may be bothering him. Good luck and welcome to you and your pupper! Oh and in case no one has mentioned it, the rules stipulate that pics are posted!

Edited March 9, 2008 by maximum

[seeh2o]

Raw beef knuckle bones are best to feed as they can tear off the meat chunks and tendons but just chew chew chew on the bone and not digest something manmade.

 

If this were my dog, I would start with the pumpkin addition, removing the Greenie and raw hides from the diet entirely for now and see how his poops are after 1-2 weeks (leaning more towards 2 weeks). I think all the numerous things in his diet may be throwing him off. You'll need to take things out of his diet and watch his poop. If it gets better, then start adding the rawhide chewing back in, if you see runny poops, then its likely its the rawhides. a lot of this is trial and error.

 

I agree. Right now I'd try to make his diet as simple as possible. Once you figure out what works for him you can start adding things. You can get raw bones from your local butcher shop and just keep them in the freezer. Some dogs don't like frozen bones, others don't care...you'll just have to experiement.

 

As for the couch...Carl jumped on the couch within 30 seconds of entering the house for the first time...on the other hand, it took him a month to take a treat from my hand, 4 months to jump on the bed, 5 months to sleep on the bed and just last night for the first time his tail helicoptered! Each week he reveals a new part of himself/learns something new about himself and gains new confidence in the new forever domestic world he now finds himself living in. It's an amazing process. I've had all my dogs from puppies, so adopting a 4.5 year old dog who had a career and did not learn how to be a domestic dog until now is really an amazing experience.

 

Don't get me wrong...it has not all been flowers and puffy sleeves...if you read my past posts there were times I wasn't sure I would be able to keep him because of some really bad separation anxiety. Ultimately, he is an adult dog with puppy-like domestic-world experience. The good thing about that is that he is an adult so, developmentally he catches on quick, it doesn't seem like it is going to take him the 1 - 2 years it takes a young to dog to learn and "figure it out". He is teaching me that each dog finds his/her how pace, it's amazing to watch each layer of the onion reveal itself as it is ready.

 

Hmmm...sounds sort of zen-like!

Edited March 9, 2008 by ckruzan

[KingsMom]

I haven't been able to decide what the best option will be for storing photos online that I can upload here... If you'd like to see some pictures of "King Boy" as I call him you can see all I have so far at the following link. www.geocities.com/stermenwedding/King I tried to put one of the "Personal Photos" up, but I don't see it so I'll have to look at that again... We'll work on simplifying his diet to make it easier to find the problem. Thanks so much!!

[Batmom]

HANDSOME pup!

 

I use photobucket for storing/uploading photos. Don't know about other services.

[Guest muppy_n_motch]

Panting: We live in Southern Florida, so it is hot here, but my husband and I are natives so we are comfortable at 78-80 in the house… I’ll try lowering it a bit and see if it helps him. We really hadn’t considered the fact that he might just be hot! He walks normally, but when we did let him off leash at the dog park, he really didn’t run around at all, just sniffed everything! But it also isn’t a great dog park…

 

 

We live in Brisbane here in Australia - the weather here is pretty similar to FL (my brother lives in Tallahassee) - and our greyt Motch hates the heat. He spends his summer inside, underneath the a/c, and does his "hot-dog" pant to great effect - mouth open, tongue out, "huh-huh-huh-huh" until we turn on the a/c for him. He uses our dog door (that's a whole other story and photo!) - and I notice that he really only goes outside in the mornings and late afternoons - during the hot part of the day he stays inside for his siesta.

 

Motch is the same at the dog park - the one we go to is HUGE - like a couple of sports ovals big with trees and grass and dirt and obstacle equipment and little hills and a small pond - all sorts of interesting stuff - but all he does is sniff, sniff, sniff and patrol the perimeter whilst sniffing and peeing on every blade of grass. This occupies about 90% of his off leash park time. Yet when we go for a walk, he's all trying to run and jump and frolick - he's kind of mental like that.

 

Don't worry too much about yours - despite their appearance they're pretty hardy and tuff - simplify his diet, spoil him with love and everything will even out ok!