Why Do Old Gals Die After Spay?

[Guest mickie37]

I feel so bad at this moment because another old gal just died after she was spayed. She just got a chance at a life as part of a family and now she is at the bridge. Has anyone done any research into this? Are these dogs just too stressed in the rescue process that includes a ride in a bus, a bath, shots, new food, new routine and spay? Could they receive a birth control shot until they are in a better physical condition?

Am I just over reacting or does anyone else feel this way?

mickie

 

Mom to Clyde the southern gentleman, Cappy the sheep herder and Fly the short fat greyhound

[Guest charmsmom]

I think it's just the anesthesia. If too much anesthesia is given, the dog can have a reaction. Sometimes it can be blood loss, a clot...any number of things. It's really sad, but I don't think it happens all that often (don't know for sure). It's one of the "benefits outweigh the risks" kind of situations. Do we risk have 10 more puppies to place or do we risk that something *might* happen to this one senior when we spay her?

 

(no flaming please...) It's sad, yes, but even people die after "routine" surgery sometimes.

[Guest houndlover]

I am so sorry. Yes, it does suck and I don't know if there is any one specific reason that it happens. The older dogs are certainly not as physically strong as the young ones that come in to be spayed and if they have had numerous litters then that can be more of a risk factor. It has happened with dogs in our group of the years but the incidents are few and far between (thank goodness). I know that on at least one occasion the vet thought that the dog had so much tartar build up on her teeth that the bacteria from her teeth got into her blood stream and then while under anesthesia she went into cardiac arrest. It is frustrating though b/c this poor girl finally had a chance at living in a home and she never got that.

[kikibean]

It may not mean anything, but with our group we've found that dogs that have Irish parents seem extra sensitive to the anesthesia.

 

We've also had some really bad luck w/ offspring of Flying Oak (including one of his littermates).

 

Most of our old gals come through surgery fine, but if they're Irish or related to Oak our vet knows to be extra careful - and we've still had problems.

 

But, you're right - it's not fair and nothing will make it feel any better.

[Chicocat]

The majority do just fine Mickie. The ones that don't make it just break your heart and you will remember them forever.

 

I don't believe there is any one reason. There can be health problems that no one is aware of ahead of time. It's not just the old ones. Sometimes a young dog will die, whether it be from malignant hypothermia or a blood disorder or some other problem.

 

I think it's helpful to give the old ones a week to re-cooperate after they come off a long haul.

 

I see that you are new here Mickie and it's probably too soon to send you a private message, but I help Greyhound Support send the old ones from Kansas on the "bus". If the old girl came to you from Kansas, I'd really like to know who she is. All of them we put on the bus steal a little part of our hearts.

 

You can email me at chicocat@mchsi.com

 

Edited January 23, 2008 by Chicocat

[silverfish]

It may not mean anything, but with our group we've found that dogs that have Irish parents seem extra sensitive to the anesthesia.

 

We've also had some really bad luck w/ offspring of Flying Oak (including one of his littermates).

 

Most of our old gals come through surgery fine, but if they're Irish or related to Oak our vet knows to be extra careful - and we've still had problems.

 

Well, pretty much all of the dogs here have Irish parentage - pure English dogs are very much the exception and even they will have a lot of Irish in their pedigrees. We don't have any particular problems with anaesthesia (no more care is needed than the usual 'greyhound' precautions) so I would think if that statement has a basis in fact maybe there is a genetic problem with Flying Oak which predisposes his offspring to a greater anaesthetic risk.

 

One thing we do routinely over here if the dog is a senior is run a PABT (Pre Anaesthetic Blood Test) to check for any major problems before putting the oldies under. Is that something you do over there? Could that be the difference? Just wondering ... maybe the poor gals who died have something going on which hasn't been detected.

 

My old 'bridge' girl Susan was never spayed. I took her on at 9 years old and they discovered a problem from the PABT and wouldn't put her under.

 

 

[Guest KennelMom]

With adoption dogs, many groups don't do pre-surgery bloodwork that might catch some issues that would cause complications with a surgery. The pre-surgery bloodwork can quickly become cost-prohibitive for groups. That said, sometimes perfectly healthy, young dogs die from spay surgery...though it is a routine surgery, it is still major abdominal surgery for the animal.

 

I had a foster that was young and gorgeous and seemingly very healthy that died during her spay. It's always tough. I've also known many senior ladies that have come through their spay with flying colors. Sometimes crappy things just happen

[heartdogs]

Our vet will not dosurgery on an old dog without the blood work. I still almost lost Jade & she was in good health but for some reason would not clost for 2 days. To see her now at 13 you would never know there had been a broblem but we are very careful.

[greytdecals]

The majority do just fine Mickie. The ones that don't make it just break your heart and you will remember them forever.

 

I don't believe there is any one reason. There can be health problems that no one is aware of ahead of time. It's not just the old ones. Sometimes a young dog will die, whether it be from malignant hypothermia or a blood disorder or some other problem.

 

I think it's helpful to give the old ones a week to re-cooperate after they come off a long haul.

 

I see that you are new here Mickie and it's probably too soon to send you a private message, but I help Greyhound Support send the old ones from Kansas on the "bus". If the old girl came to you from Kansas, I'd really like to know who she is. All of them we put on the bus steal a little part of our hearts.

 

You can email me at chicocat@mchsi.com

 

It was Birdie that died

 

This was a post from Sandy, Pres. of NCGC:

Yesterday I lost count of calls I got from the Vet about Faith and Birdie. They both must have been crate chewers and their canines were worn off. As it turned out Birdies canine on the lower jaw was fractured clear down through the root. They removed that canine and prior to that they had spayed her. She had stopped breathing during this and recovered. She woke up slow and was found unresponsive in her cage. They did try to resuscitate her. Usually if they are going to die they do it while recovering from the anesthesia. She died almost 6 hours latter! I always worry about the small little girls. Ever since Black Lily died in Nov. of 2005 I am worried sick when they go into surgery. We have Vetted about 155 - 160 GHs and have lost 2. Today I have to worry about 2 more, Faith & Mane. I guess we have to pray that they will do well. When ever any GH goes under they are in danger because of their low body fat and being over dosed on the gases. On other breeds the gases are absorbed in the fat in their bodies and in GHs that cushion is not there.

 

 

[LBass]

Spaying seems so routine that I think it is easy to forget that in dogs, as in humans, any and every surgery has risks--carries the risk of death. I do think that the greatest risk seems to be posed by the necessary use of anesthesia--for both dogs and humans. With surgeries, even when everything is done correctly, sometimes the outcome is a tragic one--not often, but sometimes...and those times are the ones we remember so very vividly.

 

Edited because that would be anesthesia, not anesthetic.

Edited January 23, 2008 by LBass

[Guest jettcricket]

My question is why do they continue to breed older gals? I do realize that younger dogs are at risk as well and things can happen, but there has to more of a risk with older dogs and if they do continue to breed them at an older age, then they should do blood work on them to hopefully detect a problem if there is one. Unspayed females are at risk for pyometra, which can be deadly, and mammary tumors. Why not put an age limitation on them?

 

We had a Kelso dog that I believe was 12, or there abouts, that had recently given birth to 2 puppies. One was stillborn and the other survived. I think 12 is a bit much. She came to us in not the best of shape either. Skinny, cataracts and horrible teeth.

 

[RobinM]

When my Polli arrive off the hauler that had been detained an extra 5 hours making her journery 36 hours!!! , I was very concerned about just rushing her into having a spay. She was scheduled for a spay 3 days later but as luck would have it, I was able to bring her home and have MY vet do it (who does all the LI greyhounds) 10 days later. Even still, anethesia was rough for my Polli.

Surgery isn't the problem, it's anethesia, just like for humans.

 

I am so sorry to hear about Birdie.

 

Run Free Sweetie.

[Guest PhillyPups]

I had the Queen spayed at the age of 10, she did fine, and graced my presence for a few years after that. I think, just as in humans, and as said beofre, surgery, whether "routine" or not is still major, I have horrific reactions to anesthesia, yet none of my 4 siblings do, we are all from the same parentage.

 

to NCGC as it is such a loss.

[4greyhounds]

With adoption dogs, many groups don't do pre-surgery bloodwork that might catch some issues that would cause complications with a surgery. The pre-surgery bloodwork can quickly become cost-prohibitive for groups. That said, sometimes perfectly healthy, young dogs die from spay surgery...though it is a routine surgery, it is still major abdominal surgery for the animal.

 

I had a foster that was young and gorgeous and seemingly very healthy that died during her spay. It's always tough. I've also known many senior ladies that have come through their spay with flying colors. Sometimes crappy things just happen

 

 

I agree and I think this sums it all up!

 

[Chicocat]

Awwwww, Birdie was just a baby - only 4 1/2.

 

I too think we sometimes forget that every surgical procedure carries the risk of death. Birdies sounded like it might have been a particularly long surgery because of the complexity of the dental portion. Whether the results would have been different had the spay and dental taken place separately is something that you can speculate about forever but something unknown. Sometimes things just aren't to be.

 

Birdie wasn't one of the dogs I got to meet this haul because we stayed in Abilene to take pictures of 38 new adoptables. Her owner drove her and 9 other dogs he was sending to adoption to meet the bus in Topeka, Ks. They ranged in age from 1 1/2 to his oldest, Suzie Q, 7 1/2, who also came to you guys.

 

Prayers and White Light for all your new hounds.

 

Godspeed Birdie.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest greytexplorer]

Spaying seems so routine that I think it is easy to forget that in dogs, as in humans, any and every surgery has risks--carries the risk of death. I do think that the greatest risk seems to be posed by the necessary use of anesthetic--for both dogs and humans. With surgeries, even when everything is done correctly, sometimes the outcome is a tragic one--not often, but sometimes...and those times are the ones we remember so very vividly.

 

Indeed. Remember Donda West?

Seems like I remember someone posted a picture of Birdie a while back............

Hugs to to all who have ever experienced this.................

Edited January 23, 2008 by greytexplorer

[Guest mickie37]

Thank you for all the responses. The pre anesthesia blood test seems like a good idea, as does giving the dog time to settle in before the surgery. I wonder if it is easier on a dog to have 2 surgeries with a shorter time under anesthesia when having a dental and a spay?

 

mickie

 

[Guest VanillaBean]

Thank you for all the responses. The pre anesthesia blood test seems like a good idea, as does giving the dog time to settle in before the surgery. I wonder if it is easier on a dog to have 2 surgeries with a shorter time under anesthesia when having a dental and a spay?

 

mickie

 

 

Hi Mickie!

 

It is my understanding that she only had one surgery done (I think spay) and was waiting for the Teeth to be done. They didn't want to keep her under for the amount of time it would have taken to do both--especially with cracked teeth. She just didn't do well with the Anesthesia. Poor baby. She is in Rememberance thread.

Traci

[Guest LynnM]

Remember that in the case of broodbitches, many/most HAVE been anaesthetized in the past, in order to be bred. If the dog had a reaction in the past, it more than likely would be known.

 

Sometimes you can have a dog that has historically been fine with anaesthesia have a wierd time with it, too. Had a foster a while back that took 6 surgeries to get his leg right (break, plates, remove plates, infection, etc). Either on #3 or 4, he had a VERY wierd time... breathing shallowed up something scary and he just wasn't right. It was probably a once and done thing, but we still did his last couple of surgeries VERY quickly with just induction meds (think NASCAR pit stop, LOL).

 

Lynn

Edited January 23, 2008 by LynnM

[BauersMom]

I've had my 7 yo and 10 yo go through a spay fine, but our group has had several young females not make it through spays.

 

And my 7 yo did fine with her spay, but then went under for another (much less invasive) reason and had a BAD, BAD time with it. Same vet, same anesthetic procedure, WAY different reaction! Scared the crap out of me.

 

Going under is a serious thing, at any age. And as far as I can tell, there's no real rhyme or reason to it.

 

There's debate to the spay/dental at once or doing them separately... I personally would rather my dog not have to go through anesthesia twice, if at all possible.

[silverfish]

There's debate to the spay/dental at once or doing them separately... I personally would rather my dog not have to go through anesthesia twice, if at all possible.

 

And I'd rather not have all that horrible bacteria sprayed around the operating room with a fresh abdominal wound available for infection, maybe leading to peritonitis.

 

The vets that I worked for wouldn't do teeth with anything else for preference, though they would do them with minor surgery if it would save going under twice. They would never have done them at the same time as major surgery - too much of a risk of post-op infection.

[Guest PhillyPups]

One thing to add, I learned that hauls, if long, can be very stressful. II had The Queen's spay scheduled for at least two weeks after arrival (all males were neutered) and as luck would have it, or as is the Queen's way, two days before her surgical date she went into heat. She had plenty of time to adjust to her new environment before her surgery. For a 10 year old, she had a lot done at once, spay, dental, and they lasered 4 corns (one on each paw of course).

 

Birdie was young, and is running with The Queen ~

 

 

[BauersMom]

There's debate to the spay/dental at once or doing them separately... I personally would rather my dog not have to go through anesthesia twice, if at all possible.

 

And I'd rather not have all that horrible bacteria sprayed around the operating room with a fresh abdominal wound available for infection, maybe leading to peritonitis.

 

The vets that I worked for wouldn't do teeth with anything else for preference, though they would do them with minor surgery if it would save going under twice. They would never have done them at the same time as major surgery - too much of a risk of post-op infection.

 

Interesting. Of all the females that I've known to be spayed with a dental (50+), I can't think of a single one who ended up with any complications with infection.

 

In my experience, the dangers of anesthesia have been more prominent than anything else. Not saying there isn't a chance of infection, just relating what I've seen.

 

I'm sure if the teeth were horrible, with extractions, there'd be reason to not combine it with a spay, but in routine cases, I'd rather not have a dog go under twice.

 

[Batmom]

The vet who did Joseph's neuter and dental won't do them both at once. IIRC he didn't want the dog to be under that long but I could be misremembering -- all I recall is, he wouldn't do it, and I wanted him to do the work, so we did it his way (my vets will do dental and remove a small bump, laser a corn, etc.). He also wants at least 3 weeks to pass in between elective anaesthesias.

 

On the one hand, I think bloodwork before anaesthesia is a really good idea. On the other hand, that can't always -- or even very often? -- predict who will have a bad reaction, who will bleed, etc.

[BauersMom]

You know what's odd is that the one time my brood had a bad reaction, she was only under for a very short time. But she didn't come out of it for nearly 24 hours - couldn't walk, couldn't stand, nothing. She was like in this pseudo-awake state. Very scary.