Separation Anxiety and Clomicalm - Please Help!

[Natalie]

Here goes…

For background I am from the UK and work full time. I work 3 days from home and 2 days in the office. I have grown up with dogs and as an adult, my last dog was a rescue German Spitz that developed diabetes in her later years so we gave her insulin twice a day so the idea of medication etc isn’t too shocking or scary to me. 
 

6 months ago me and my husband decided 3 years after losing our furbaby that we were ready for another dog. We kept borrowing our friends dog and then felt like they had died when we gave them back so we knew we were ready. We’re not particular active, like going for a mooch etc so we volunteered at our local greyhound rescue to get to know the breed and as soon as we saw their little faces we knew we were adopting one. We were matched with Twirl (now named Phoebe). Phoebe is 4 years old, has raced a lot and was retired in November 2021. We walked her with the pack and she seemed ok with dogs so we thought brilliant! As soon as we got her home on her trial it was clear that she was definitely not ok with dogs, she was absolutely petrified. I took her to outdoor socialisation classes 3x per week and she has done amazing. She’s had some lovely, calm, brief interactions with dogs (even if the next day she is crying and spinning again like that didn’t happen?) but we’ve trained her to cope with dogs passing by either watch me or Phoebe come and as long as we have Ham with us she’s much more interested in that!

the adoption group told us that she will be quite reserved and not to expect too much from her but within about 10 hours it was like she had been there for 10 weeks, she settled in straight away. We’ve decided from the start that we don’t want her to come upstairs. We’ve got really narrow windy stairs. She wouldn’t sleep at night properly for a good 3 months as she would cry, pace, pull the baby gate off the wall but now we’ve got her a snuggly crate, she’s dying for us to go to bed now so that she can have her chew in her crate and settle down. 
 

When we first adopted her, my husband had to work away for a night on the second day and from that moment on I became the one that she latched on to. I think it would have happened anyway as I work from home. I took a few days off work and instantly left for seconds, minutes, hours and when I came back she would be settled on her bed so I felt  like it was ok. Over the coming months we went from scratched door, pulled up carpet, urinating on the carpet next to the door we left through. One day I captured on the camera where she was crying, panting, chewed most of internal door off. That evening I reached out to a dog behaviourist and begged her to take us on and we started the next day with her. She taught us how to provide enough enrichment and came up with an 8 week SA plan. In those 8 weeks, we’ve achieved leaving her for 2 minutes and 15 seconds. The sessions incremented by around 5 seconds per day but we just couldn’t make any progress. We were told not to leave her other than the sessions so we’ve used holidays/Lieu days/worked Saturdays to get a rest day during this time. Phoebe will even urinate if im upstairs. We can’t leave her and I can’t go upstairs. I made an appointment with the vet and got in with a vet behaviourist and he said it’s clear that she is going to need medication to be able to cope with being left alone. He wasn’t happy about the 5 second increments and said SA anxiety should look more like day 1 10 mins, day 2 20 mins. He was also concerned that this had gone on for 2 months and medication wasn’t brought up by the behaviourist sooner when in the early days we could only leave her for 10-15 seconds. He also didn’t agree with not leaving her at all for 2 months and said we have probably made matters worse being around so much. 
 

We have started 80mg per day (40mg twice a day) Phoebe weighs 28kg. We’ve used all the leave we can and tomorrow we both have to go in to the office and I can come home at dinner time to walk her etc. she seems to settle better in the dining room if where her crate is if we leave through the back door. She can’t cope even more with us leaving through the front door.

I know that Clomicalm can take a while to get in to the system. My vet advised that it takes around 8 weeks to see full effects but hopefully within around 2 we might see some mild improvements that mean we can make a small dent in the start of some SA training (hopefully).

My question is - what should my SA training look like now? Is it still a mixture of door is a bore, watching her on the camera and seeing how long she can cope and building on this? Are my days leaving her going to undo it all? I keep reading that “medication only works in conjunction with behaviour modification” so is this the things that I have listed? I feel like I’ve been researching/doing all of this for so long that I’m just feeling lost and having a behaviourist and a vet behaviourist with two completely different view points hasn’t helped!

thank you so much to anyone that has taken the time to read my huge post! Absolutely any insight or help will be so appreciated and if anyone comes across this post because they’re also looking for help then I hope you’re doing ok because it can be so hard!

[1Moregrey]

Hugs to you and your family it is no fun dealing with this level of SA.  
Some questions how does she do in the crate?  Did she have to much freedom at home before she figured out what to do?  I am in the US so it is different how we bring home greyhounds, we are encouraged to use a crate for a transition time to get the dogs used to a home environment.  Mabybe ask your vet behaviorist about using the crate for alone training.  Where you can be at home but out of sight and build on time.  
Since you gave the first behaviorist a try and it did not work maybe try the second one and see if you get a different response.

Again hugs you are not alone,  if you search for SA here you will find lots of information. Also search alone training there is a book that you will find recommended there too.  Not sure of the name off the top of my head it is listed in a bunch of the threads.

Others with more experience in this area will respond too.  

Any chance you could borrow another greyhound and see if having another well adjusted gh would make any difference to her?  Some just need a friend too.  Since she sounds so different from what they and you were expecting…..  

 

[1Moregrey]

Found it: Dr.Patricia McConnell's booklet "I'll be Home Soon". She also has other books that are good too.

[Natalie]

Thank you so much for your reply! We didn’t crate her when we first brought her home which I feel like was a massive mistake. She had free reign of the downstairs so I bet she just had no idea what/where she was expected to go and do. She did have a bed in the living room and the dining room so would go between the two depending where we were. The bed in the dining room is now inside the crate. 

we got the crate just before we started with our first behaviourist and I asked her about crate training but she said it wasn’t necessary to treat separation anxiety and can make it worse as she’s seen some bad injuries from crated dogs with SA, particularly because she tried to chew through the door to get to us. We never close the door on Phoebe’s crate but she chooses to sleep in there (assuming because I’m in there) whilst I’m working for 3 days a week. We didn’t have a door between the living room and dining room when she first came so then we put the door on so that when we do leave, she only has the dining room with crate and kitchen now rather than the whole run of the downstairs. This has seemed to help at least with not urinating by the door that we leave through. Perhaps some crate training whilst moving room to room would be beneficial with the internal SA.
 

we did think very seriously about a second greyhound but this has been such a culture shock and I’ve read mixed experiences about it working, not working and then the dreaded having two hounds with SA. She’s also quite scared of other dogs (seems to have extended to some greyhounds that we see out and about sometimes) so I’m just not sure  how it would play out for her.

Thank you again so much for your response! 

[1Moregrey]

I hope you can find the book and it gives you some good ideas.  If I was in your shoes I would work with the vet behaviorist who gave the meds.  The idea behind my comment about trying out a second greyhound by borrowing one was not to get you to add another but to see if it made a difference.  I fostered a dog that had some special issues for a few weeks he was night and day different as an only compared to when I had another dog with him for a weekend visit.  It was like he needed the other dog for cues on how to behave.  
Again best wishes you can get a handle on this soon.  

[macoduck]

Phoebe has gone from being around groups of greyhounds all her life. Her life changed drastically when you brought her home 6 months ago.

Some dogs have no problem making the transition. My first greyhound, Gracie, was immediately destructive from day one, chewing furniture, curtains, and a door. The group head insisted I make her go in the crate. She'd scream and defecate in the crate night after night. The adoption kennel was 4 hours away and there were no other greyhound owners around to help me understands this behavior. There were no dog behaviorists closer than 3 hours away.

We had an older mixed breed dog at the time. The two of them never interacted. Rosie's calm demeanor did nothing to help Gracie. My vet suggested Clomicalm. It did take 6-8 weeks to see improvement. We kept her on it for almost a year. She became a changed dog and later became the first volunteer therapy dog at the hospital where I worked.

Continue with the alone training by exiting and entering at random times, starting with a few seconds and building up to more. Jingle your keys sometimes, but not always. Get a coat out the closet, put it on and step out, other times just put the coat back in the closet. The idea is to not let her focus on your routine. Praise when she is not frantic when to step back into the house. Ignore her if she is. Make your coming and goings no big deal, even if it means not talking to her.

You mentioned you put a door back up. If that door, or any other doors upset her when closed, consider putting up a baby gate. I understand that your stairs are difficult. Are they wood or carpeted? Could you guide her on-leash upstairs so she'd be with you at night or when you are working upstairs? Put a baby gate at the top of the steps to prevent her from injuring herself without you guiding her back down. Perhaps a gate at the bottom of the steps as well. New greyhounds really like to see and /or be with their people.

Regarding seeing other dogs, keep her leash short to limit the spinning. Give a cue like "look at me" and give a tasty treat (something special like a tiny bit of meat, not her usual treats) when she looks at you, ignoring the other dog.

Good luck!

[greysmom]

You're really having quite a go around with her.  I'm so sorry.  There have been many who make their way here to GT who have had to deal with this level of SA with newly adopted greyhounds, so you are definitely not alone in the Separation Anxiety boat.  I urge you to slog your way through the many (many) threads on the subject to see if anything sounds helpful.  There are a lot of them so stick with the ones from the last 5 or so years.

Couple other thoughts as I was reading...

The first behaviorist that you tried - it this person a certified animal behaviorist?  Was s/he recommended to you by someone?  This person does have some valid points, but they only touch the surface of dealing with SA and not at all on Phoebe's level, and this may be out of their level of expertise.  I would urge you to stick with your vet behaviorist at this point, as you work through dispensing medications.

Don't look for quick fixes from the meds.  Clomicalm is where most vets begin because it's one of the only anti anxiety drugs approved for veterinary use for SA.  In the UK you are just beginning to use anti anxiety drugs at all, and I'm a bit surprised you found a vet who'll use them.  But - be prepared for the Clomicalm not to help.  It can and it does for *some* dogs.  There's no guarantee it will work for Phoebe.  You may need to try another (or several other) anti anxiety drugs before finding one that helps her.  Each dog's brain chemistry is different and there's no telling what is going to turn the key and allow her to accept counter conditioning.

As far as crate training goes, it seems she's comfortable in her crate then I would use it to help her.  If you're home with her, working in the same room for a few minutes and she's quiet in her crate, close the door.  Keep working for a few minutes and then reopen the door - no fussing, no big deal.  Extend the "close door" with you in the room time until she's just relaxed no matter how long the door is closed.  Then close the door and leave the room.  Come right back and open the door.  Rinse and repeat, extending the time as she's comfortable, until you can work upstairs with her in her crate with the door closed as long as you need.  It should be easy from there to move on to leaving the house.

Look into doggy day care, or friends who may be able to watch her in your home for work days.  Your adoption group might also be able to take her back into the kennel for a few hours a day if they're convenient to you, though that may set her back.  If you can set her up in a safe and easily cleanable area, it's probably going to be best to keep at this in your home.

I do feel your pain.  Our most recent girl attached herself to me like Phoebe did for you.  I couldn't leave the house without her freaking out - even though my husband and two other greyhounds were with her.  Plus, we're both retired, so we're around the house 24/7 most days anyway.  Then with Covid it got hard to figure out how to deal with her issues.  We ended up using the anti anxiety drug Trazadone with her for a good 18 months before she got comfortable with me leaving.  Now we just have to work on both of us leaving the house at the same time!!!  It can be a long process, so don't lose hope.

[Natalie]

Hi everyone,

thank you so much for your lovely replies! Things have been going really well for us the last couple of days, I know that Clomicalm can take 8 weeks to build up within the system but we’ve almost instantly seen amazing results, probably also down to the amount of desensitisation we have done over the last 2 months. 
 

Thursday it took Phoebe around 13 minutes to stop walking around crying and then she went in to her crate and snoozed for a few hours. Friday it took 5 minutes. Today it took 1 minute. Once she is in there, she lays down and is awake for a little bit but after a short while she is on her side sleeping. 
 

Usually I can’t go upstairs for more than a couple of minutes before she will start to cry, pace and sometimes urinate. Today I went up for 30 minutes and she came to have a look what I was doing and then went and lay down in the living room!

 

we are now trying to work on leaving through the front door as that is her main trigger so building that up in really short doses but we couldn’t do longer than seconds beforehand whereas I’ve just managed to do 3 minutes and she was still fine but didn’t want to push it too much and rush the process (as I think I have in the past). She really is so much better being in the dining room with her crate and we leave through the back door. I think it helps that we naturally have that door open more and potter in and out where as the front door is mainly open when we are just leaving.

 

we are just feeling so elated that we can have a bit of normality whilst we continue the training with her as it’s been impossible to manage the last 2 months of not leaving her at all as it’s naturally caused myself and my husband to live almost separate lives to provide nearly 24/7 company for her!

 

your messages have been so reassuring so thank you very much

[ShebasMom]

I'm so happy to hear about your progress!

[NeylasMom]

Glad to hear the medication is helping!

For future training once the meds have fully kicked in I recommend an SA Pro certified trainer:

https://www.subthresholdtraining.com/find-a-trainer/

SA training can all be done virtually so if there isn't someone close to you, a close friend and former coworker is certified and has a virtual training package:

https://www.behaviorunited.com/

I strongly recommend working with her or someone else with that certification. I'm a professional trainer and behavior counselor and I worked with her with my own dog when her SA returned after we had to let my greyhound go and found it incredibly helpful. Some of the traditional training methods for SA aren't quite up to date with current research, but this program is and frankly, the emotional support you'll get from having a knowledgeable coach can be huge since SA is so difficult to deal with. 

I hope this helps. Good luck!

[greysmom]

Great news!!!  Don't be discourage if she has episodes of backsliding though.  You're going in the right direction overall!!     And do search out NeylasMom's links above if you feel you need additional help and support!

Good job!!!