Symptoms Of Arthritis Vs Osteo

[Guest AngelPup]

Hi All. It's been quite a while since I've posted here. My life has been crazy to say the least.

 

Anyway, we adopted our second Grey in November. It's been one thing after another, but recently she's been favoring her right rear leg. I had noticed a bit of a limp shortly after adopting her, but it was VERY slight and I chalked it up to yet another injury from her big brother (he was a BEAST and played very rough). She started skipping a bit on that leg when I was taking her for walks and at first I thought her paw was bothering her from the ice/snow/salt. Had a vet look at it. He thought it was just a sore paw. He never checked her leg/hip.

 

It got worse and I had another vet (same office) check her leg. He thoroughly checked each joint, poked, prodded, etc. Cindy Lou was very stoic and never flinched. He said everything seemed fine, but it could be several things (arthritis, soft tissue injury, etc.). He suggested that I give her 1,000 mg of glucosamine daily, which I've been giving her since that visit (bought Phycox One soft chews at vet's office). No improvement.

 

About two weeks later, I noticed that she was lifting that leg more than setting it down, so stopped taking her for walks and I made yet another appt. This time with a particular vet that we had in the past that I like (her original vet is impossible to see on short notice). My husband took her in as it was during my workday, but I gave him a list of questions and comments. He told me that the vet really put Cindy Lou through it all--poking, pulling, lifting, bending, etc., etc. Again, she ever flinched. He said she even 'popped' one of her joints. ? I had asked that they do Xrays to at least put my mind at ease over an osteo diagnosis. She did three Xrays from paw to hip. She told my husband that it looks like arthritis, but sent the films out for consult to confirm (something about jagged areas). The other thing that the vet noticed was that Cindy Lou has less muscle mass on the right rear leg in comparison to the left. I've also noticed, right from adoption, that the back muscle on the right side is MUCH larger than the one on the left side. I'm guessing that's because she is using that muscle more to keep that rear leg lifted? That makes me think that this is an ongoing issue that started pre adoption. Maybe the reason she was retired? The doctor prescribed Deramaxx. Gave us 3, 75 mg tablets to cut in 1/2 for six days to see how she responds. I gave it to her with her breakfast today and it seemed to take a while to kick in. This afternoon/evening, she seemed fine and actually was pretty peppy.

 

Cindy Lou will be 4 in July--she's just a baby. I'm actually surprised she could have arthritis at such a young age, but I realize that athletes are prone to it. I'm a bit concerned it could be something more serious. I know cancer can happen at any time, but what are the odds of it happening at her young age? If it is just arthritis, is there anything else I can give her that would help. I don't want her to have to take Deramaxx daily as I know there are some serious side effects. If the glucosamine is going to work, when would I see results? I'm also giving her salmon oil for her skin/coat as she had terrible dandruff. I know fish oil has anti-inflammatory properties too, so I'm hoping that would help.

 

Would there be any other symptoms to look for that could indicate osteo? She's eating and sleeping well.

[KF_in_Georgia]

Okay, funny question. Do you have a picture of her butt? Is the larger muscle on her right leg evident from looking at the outside of her leg? Or is the larger part on the underside? If it's on the underside, it might be a torn gracilis muscle. See an earlier discussion here.

 

A lot of people have used glucosamine (on their dogs and themselves) and not seen any improvement. Others have reported definite improvement. I might be inclined to keep her on glucosamine until the current bottle is finished, paying particular attention to her movements as I neared the end of the bottle; then see if I notice problems quickly after the meds have stopped and use that as a criterion for whether or not to continue. Actually, that's what I did. My dogs and I are in the "don't see any improvement" group, but then my dogs don't have much visible stiffness that's attributable to arthritis.

 

Does your girl limp more on hard surfaces than on soft? More on concrete than on grass? If so, it might be a corn, especially one that hasn't broken through the surface of the pad. Search for a corn thread here on Greytalk--there are dozens of them--and you'll find photos and advice on how to determine if that what's going on. A corn would explain why she's so stoic about having her leg manipulated. If you're holding that painful foot off the ground while you move the leg, there's nothing to make her react.

 

There's really no good way to diagnose osteo from symptoms, and having any one or two of the above problems doesn't mean there couldn't be osteo as well. You're really going to need the input from whoever the x-rays were sent to. You also can send a copy of the x-rays to Dr Couto for a consultation. Contact information for him is on the first page of the current Osteo thread.

 

Four is very young for osteo. It's not at all young for a torn gracilis or a corn. Either of those could have interfered with her running and thus curtailed her racing career.

[Walliered]

Check each pad very carefully for corns. Corns are missed by vets very often.

[kolarik1]

Others have pretty much covered it. My 2 cents:

 

Zelda has arthritis and it takes more than 2 weeks to really see the benefit of glucosamine. Her arthritis is in her toes which swelled up one night a couple years ago and she would limp after running. I keep her on the glucosamine...her one toe is still swollen, but after watching my dad with his arthritis I know that as long as the pain/discomfort is subsided I'm not going to worry too much about her toe being large.

 

Pop had osteo. He got wobbly around Thanksgiving and by Christmas I took him in as he was seeming "off." He was 10 that September and had Lupus. The vet who saw him wasn't our regular vet at the practice...she checked him over and said his reflexes were good and it was probably a case of "if you don't use it you lose it." He had lost some muscle mass, but I had originally chalked that up to his age and the Lupus. Towards the end of that January, he started to limp...he did this whenever his Lupus flared up, so I dosed him with steroids for a week which always made his limp go away...but not this time, the limp got progressively worse. So 1 1/2 weeks after the limp started, I took him to the vet again...we were able to see the regular vet and I gave her the list of symptoms. She kinda knew already, but did the xray and his leg right by his shoulder looked like moths had eaten it...his osteo was clear.

 

So...I wouldn't be quick to jump on the osteo wagon as it could be other things like the other posters have said.

 

Sending lots of prayers your way.

[Guest AngelPup]

Thanks for the great info, advice, and prayers everyone. I actually didn't notice at all the different muscle mass between the two legs and still can't really tell unless I'm feeling them. One just feels stronger/tighter than the other one. Now the muscles that run down her back, just behind the shoulders, have a dramatic difference.

 

I did check her pads for corns, but didn't see any. I'll look more closely when she wakes from her nap. Hopefully, it's just that or a pulled muscle. It does seem as though she favors that leg more on pavement or hard surfaces, so it could very well be a corn that just hasn't broken through yet. If that is what it is, what can I do to help reduce the pain? I haven't been taking her for walks, but she does enjoy them and I know that could help with arthritis, etc.

 

Thanks all. I feel much better.

[tbhounds]

See if she'll wear boots. Once she get used to the boots you will have to determine if they help her walking on harder surfaces. If she's sound while wearing the boots the owie would be in her foot.

[Guest AngelPup]

Hmm, I could try...again. I did put Pawz on her once and she was terrified of them. Wouldn't budge; with the exception of shaking with fear. But you're not talking about something like Pawz are you? Actual dog boots?

[tbhounds]

Pawz aren't thick enough-you need to use something with more cushion-therapaws, neopaws....

[GeorgeofNE]

Don't LOOK for corns, feel for them. You need to rub your fingers carefully over each individual paw pad.

 

Could be a tendon problem, could be lots of things.

[NeylasMom]

To check for corns, squeeze each toe individually, both from the sides and on the bottom and see if she pulls back in reaction to any one toe.

 

In the meantime, if it were me, I would also send the x-rays to Dr. Couto just to be safe. The consult fee would be worth the piece of mind imo. Osteo in a dog that young isn't common, but it does happen and I would always want to have irregular x-rays looked at by someone I was confident could differentiate between osteo and arthritis/other causes for bone changes.

[turbotaina]

Don't LOOK for corns, feel for them. You need to rub your fingers carefully over each individual paw pad.

 

Could be a tendon problem, could be lots of things.

 

That won't find them either. You need to take each toe by the side and give a firm but gentle squeeze. If the dog pulls back or lip licks or otherwise looks uncomfortable, it's likely a corn.

 

If you have a "country vet" near who knows how to give nerve blocks, you can try DX'ing that way. Many small animal vets won't think to do it, but it's commonly done to DX lameness in horses. If the pain is in the foot, it'll help isolate where it is.

 

My last greyhound had horrible corns where he would be toe-touch lame at a walk well before the corn even became visible. With years of corns, he did have some muscle wasting on the corn side because he just wouldn't weight-bare on his right hind with regularity. What worked for him was therapaw boots and tramadol. NSAIDs generally won't help with corn pain. When his corns were *really* bad, even the boot/tramadol combo wouldn't work and we'd have to wait to get the corn hulled, then for a few days/weeks after for him to start bearing weight again.

 

All that being said, yes, your dog could have had a racing injury and been retired for that reason. Adoption kennels are usually given a give-up paper that has the reason for retirement on it (at least, that was my experience when bringing in dogs for my former group), so you may get a clue there. You can also look at her race record to see if there were any long lapses in time between races. That will usually indicate an injury. If she had a fracture, then yes, she could have some arthritis or calcification going on there.

 

For joint supplements, look at Actiflex. You can get it in horse or dog formulas. It's got all kinds of good stuff in it and was recommended to me by a racing trainer.

Hope you can get it figured out!

 

ETA: Jen you posted when I was writing my novel here

Edited March 18, 2014 by turbotaina

[MerlinsMum]

I don't bother with supplements. And the evidence on the effectiveness of glucosamine is inconclusive at best.

 

I understand the worry about Deramaxx, but I would encourage you to put her on it on a daily basis if it turns out that it's definitely arthritis. Deramaxx is proven to be beneficial in providing relief for the symptoms of arthritis. Merlin has arthritis and used to take it only during flare-ups, but it's gotten worse and several months ago he was put on it daily. It's made a BIG difference. And of course he gets tested regularly to make sure that taking Deramaxx isn't causing any deleterious effects to his liver/kidneys.

[Guest AngelPup]

Great! I'll try them. Any suggestions on how I can get her to wear them without being petrified?

 

 

Edited to add: This is in reference to the type of boots to try (not sure why the quote wasn't inserted).

Edited March 18, 2014 by AngelPup

[Guest AngelPup]

Hmmm, I guess the quote feature isn't working today.

 

George, thanks for the info. I spent a lot of time this morning while the sun was shining onto her and felt around each of the pads on that paw. They are all smooth and cushy feeling with the exception of a small, raised, hard spot on the corner of her large foot pad. But if that is what is bothering her, wouldn't she have pulled away when I was poking and prodding it? I would have expected it to be painful to the touch.

 

If that is indeed a corn, how should I proceed to help her?

[Guest grey_dreams]

In cases of chronic deteriorating osteoarthritis, starting to give oral glucosamine as a single-source supplement will not have any beneficial effects. However, in the very early stages of the beginning development of arthritis, giving a complex supplement containing glucosamine, MSM, chondroitin, boswelia, hyaluronic acid, and mussel (such as this formulation) can help remedy joint stiffness and swelling, and slow the progression of more joint deterioration.

 

For a 4-year-old dog, I would much rather give the joint supplement than begin with daily doses of an NSAID that you will have to keep giving and increasing the dose for the rest of her (likely significantly shortened) life.

 

Having said all that, I really hope that you can find that her symptoms arise from something minor and she will nicely recover with a little time

[Guest AngelPup]

Nylas Mom, thank you for the info. I'll try again when I get home. I did poke and prod a lot, but no response.

 

The vet called and left a message yesterday stating that the consult doctor wasn't impressed with the films. I'm assuming that means he saw nothing, but I'm going to call and speak with her vet today to fill her in on Cindy Lou and ask a few questions.

 

I know it could be any number of things. I just wish we could find out what exactly it is, so I know what I should be doing to help her recover.

[Guest AngelPup]

Thanks Meredith for all that info. I will certainly check into everything you mentioned!

Hi Kerry, Thanks for the info on the supplements and meds. While I did notice some improvement when I started hiving her the Deramaxx, I've noticed that she really isn't acting any different than she did before I started giving it to her, so I'm thinking that eliminates arthritis as the source of the pain. I've noticed that when she's more active (playing with her toys, spinning around in the living room, etc.) she favors that leg a lot more. When she has a day of rest, it doesn't seem to bother her as much.

[Guest AngelPup]

Thanks Grey Dreams. I agree. I'd much rather go the holistic/natural route first and see if that helps. I really don't think the Deramaxx is making a difference anyway. She was very limpy yesterday and she was also very hyper/playful yesterday too, so I think it may be a muscle/tendon/corn issue. ?

[vjgrey]

Sort of expensive, but if you don't get answers/results, you might consider asking about an MRI to check for neck/back/spinal issues. They can cause a limp if a bulging/herniated disc is pressing on a nerve.

[Guest AngelPup]

I spoke with the vet this morning. She said that there wasn't anything the films except a bit of arthritis. Nothing that should be causing her to limp. I asked her about the dropped muscle, potential corn, etc. She said it could be one of those, but also a pinched nerve, or soft tissue injury. Very hard to tell. I told her I wasn't sure the meds were helping and that she seems better when she's not as active. She said the meds might still be helping and that we should keep her as quiet and rested as possible this week and see how she makes out. She wants an update in a week. She said if there is no improvement or nothing surfaces as a reason for her limp, it may be beneficial to have a surgeon take a look at her since they see these types of things every day. Cindy Lou has an appointment in a week anyway for her Lyme booster, so I'll have whichever vet is giving the shot check her out again. In particular, her pads and back muscles. If she hasn't improved, I'll ask about doing a nerve block and/or have a surgeon check her out too. I'm just hoping she gets better soon!

[Guest AngelPup]

UPDATE:

 

This was supposed to be a week of rest and pain meds for Cindy Lou, but it didn't turn out that way. She seems to have NO trouble running like a lunatic around the back yard, but paid for it afterward. I didn't expect her to start running around while I was picking up after her since she has trouble even trotting--otherwise I would have put a leash on her. After her run, she stood very still and started whimpering--had her leg up a bit. I touched her side (rib cage) ever so lightly and she yelped in pain. I don't think that's the area that hurts. I think she was just letting me know she was in pain and didn't want to be touched. But I'm definitely going to mention it to her vet. I did check her side again after she had rested and she gave me no response.

 

It seems the more active she is, the more it bothers her. Also, the more she stands. She had her first obedience class last night and after a while she looked VERY uncomfortable. Started favoring that leg more and more. I checked her pads again for corns (poked, prodded, and squeezed)--nothing. It doesn't look like she has a dropped muscle--her back end looks normal.

 

So, since it doesn't appear to be corns, a dropped muscle, or arthritis/osteo, it appears we're looking at a muscle or nerve issue, correct? The vet also said it could be her neck or spine... possibly sciatica. This is so frustrating. She has an appointment tonight and I'm going to have the vet check her again from toes to hip all the way to her neck... and ask about doing a nerve block and maybe going to a chiropractor...

 

Can anyone think of anything else it could be or what is sounds like it could be?

[Guest peacehound]

My girl Peace has limped on and off since I adopted her as a bounce at age six. She is 12 now, she had xrays, anti-inflamatories, tramadol and other pain meds. My vet just couldn't see to find a problem. I took her to the vets at OSU, they recommended she start to take Adequan injections, after the loading dose she is on maintenance shot every six weeks..has really helped with her quality of life. I took videos of her for the vets to see her in action prior to the appointment because as you know when they are in the office they dont always show pain..anyways, they said it was an old injury and arthritis causing her problems..just thought I would let you know what worked for her..at one point before we took her to OSU she was in so much pain she held her leg completely off the ground.

[Guest AngelPup]

My girl Peace has limped on and off since I adopted her as a bounce at age six. She is 12 now, she had xrays, anti-inflamatories, tramadol and other pain meds. My vet just couldn't see to find a problem. I took her to the vets at OSU, they recommended she start to take Adequan injections, after the loading dose she is on maintenance shot every six weeks..has really helped with her quality of life. I took videos of her for the vets to see her in action prior to the appointment because as you know when they are in the office they dont always show pain..anyways, they said it was an old injury and arthritis causing her problems..just thought I would let you know what worked for her..at one point before we took her to OSU she was in so much pain she held her leg completely off the ground.

 

Thanks peacehound. I plan on taking videos of her before the appt to show the vet. I'm looking forward to her appt w/the surgeon on Thursday. From what I understand, he will have her walk around and trott in the office so maybe he'll be able to pin point where the pain is coming from. Someone had recommended chiro, so I may look into that as well. I'm not close to OSU. What is Adequan?